The American Dream is too focused on individual achievement?

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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The American Dream today, is reserved for those that can suck Government tit, and take advantage of the system for their best interest.

-John
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
It's also easy for people at the top of the predatory heap to preach about greed as freedom & to set the little people against each other with illusions of being better than the other guy because some of 'em get paid a little better.

It's easy to exploit greed & pride at the same time. Hitchens had something to say about it-



Who champions that headset, anyway?

its also easy for folks to be lazy and bad with money/priorities and blame those who are well to do.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
Funny that when you talk about "ME" you only frame it as the wealthy being greedy. As if you and everyone you know aren't just as greedy.

GIVE ME THINGS! GOVERMENT GIVE ME FREE STUFF! FREE COLLEGE! FREE HEALTH CARE! FREE FREE FREE! GIVE ME STUFF!

But no, it's just the wealthy that are greedy...

LOL, "liberals"...

You wouldn't be so scared about "free" education, health care etc. if your outrage wouldn't come from the fact that you're afraid money being taken out of your pocket.

So, your motivation is GREED AS WELL, just looked at from another side.

Yours is actually worse because it prioritizes your own well-being over the well-being of "society": "ME! ME!! ME!!! Don't give my tax dollars to those leeches!"

So..welcome to the "ME! Club" which you, by the way, have always been a member too. But I am quite sure you're convinced you do not belong
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
its also easy for folks to be lazy and bad with money/priorities and blame those who are well to do.

Which explains this entirely, I suppose-



http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-raises-2011-12

Work harder to increase shareholder value so that they won't offshore or automate your job. Nevermind that they'll do it anyway, first chance they get, then explain it's because you're not good enough.

Economy sux? Maybe that's because a very few at the very top are sucking up all the gravy.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
You wouldn't be so scared about "free" education, health care etc. if your outrage wouldn't come from the fact that you're afraid money being taken out of your pocket.

So, your motivation is GREED AS WELL, just looked at from another side.

Yours is actually worse because it prioritizes your own well-being over the well-being of "society": "ME! ME!! ME!!! Don't give my tax dollars to those leeches!"

So..welcome to the "ME! Club" which you, by the way, have always been a member too. But I am quite sure you're convinced you do not belong

When have I ever denied being about me first and foremost? I acknowledge that. Too bad "liberals" can't admit the truth. They blame greed on everyone but themselves. Democrats couch their greed in imaginary "generosity".
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
When have I ever denied being about me first and foremost? I acknowledge that. Too bad "liberals" can't admit the truth. They blame greed on everyone but themselves. Democrats couch their greed in imaginary "generosity".

But I am about me. Every time I you open your mouth here to bellyache and rage I become aware of how much more emotionally poor you are than me and I just want to hug you and hold you and kiss your booboo and make it all better. The more I can love you the richer I become. Its like I grew up in a dark tent and found a pinhole through which a tiny bit of light came, and if I can cast a few beams on you, it's like I stuck a knife in that hole to make it bigger and to let more light shine through. I don't understand it, it's like a miracle, but I am sure that it feels good. I guess I know that the wealth I have is just an infinitely small fraction of the wealth we can have if we share. And that makes you beautiful to me. I love my greed because it makes me wealthy beyond measure.

PS: Just a few minutes ago, before I read your post, I was lamenting the fact that I had not seen you post in a while and I felt sad about that because I miss you. Glad to see you're still around. True story!
 
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bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Which explains this entirely, I suppose-



http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-raises-2011-12

Work harder to increase shareholder value so that they won't offshore or automate your job. Nevermind that they'll do it anyway, first chance they get, then explain it's because you're not good enough.

Economy sux? Maybe that's because a very few at the very top are sucking up all the gravy.

Whose working harder, joe blow in the trenches, you truly think that will increase his "value to the company"

Also you're citing a retailer, and one of the biggest in the nation with loads of unskilled labor that doesn't matter.

Anything that is menial can be automated or outsourced, which is why we will have a heap of truly low skilled folks and a large percentage of lower middle class

If the future generations want to compete they will have to get into technology and science fields and even that isn't a guarantee

I am sure you propose some robin hood style tax scheme that will penalize the high net worth folks...or force companies into higher wages which will just be passed right back to consumers.

Good luck to them if they are waiting it out hoping any major retailer to just up peoples pay drastically because they want to do better...their analysts are more than likely saying plan for the worse which means continuing to ratchet up profits as long as they can.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Whose working harder, joe blow in the trenches, you truly think that will increase his "value to the company"

Also you're citing a retailer, and one of the biggest in the nation with loads of unskilled labor that doesn't matter.

Anything that is menial can be automated or outsourced, which is why we will have a heap of truly low skilled folks and a large percentage of lower middle class

If the future generations want to compete they will have to get into technology and science fields and even that isn't a guarantee

I am sure you propose some robin hood style tax scheme that will penalize the high net worth folks...or force companies into higher wages which will just be passed right back to consumers.

Good luck to them if they are waiting it out hoping any major retailer to just up peoples pay drastically because they want to do better...their analysts are more than likely saying plan for the worse which means continuing to ratchet up profits as long as they can.

Imagine the day when your antiquated ass is tucked in bed at night by a machine with intelligence and abilities as far ahead of you as you are ahead of a worm.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
If I can make your holiday just a little more miserable, then I feel I've done my job.

Like I really give a shit about you to be honest.

Was just making an observation

Have a nice day, twit.
 
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bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Imagine the day when your antiquated ass is tucked in bed at night by a machine with intelligence and abilities as far ahead of you as you are ahead of a worm.

and you're point is exactly? we hold back technological progress simply to give mediocre performers some sense of relevance?

we already manufacture jobs for folks who clearly don't want to work now and would rather just game the system....
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
American dream was paid for by government programs, when it still existed. Now American dream is to gouge someone else for some money or dodge some taxes.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
and you're point is exactly? we hold back technological progress simply to give mediocre performers some sense of relevance?

we already manufacture jobs for folks who clearly don't want to work now and would rather just game the system....

My point was that you are far below mediocre except in your imagination.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
and you're point is exactly? we hold back technological progress simply to give mediocre performers some sense of relevance?

we already manufacture jobs for folks who clearly don't want to work now and would rather just game the system....

I'm sure that the people at the tippy-top consider you to be a mediocre & disposable performer as well.

The point is that having a job to earn money can't be both a necessity and a privilege in a modern democracy no matter how badly you think it should be that way. Clearly, those allocations of resources cannot be left to the whims of our financial elite because they have proven themselves to be unreliable in holding up their end of the social contract. They serve only themselves & claim righteousness in doing so even though their actions affect the whole country. Their leadership has been irresponsible, to say the least.

That's completely obvious given the divergent fortunes of the .01% and middle America.

It's amazing that people who bitterly claim that America is going to Hell in a handbasket have internalized what really is the corporate line so completely that they can't see why at all.

Besides that, if America really is going to Hell in a handbasket, why don't they have to come too?
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
My point was that you are far below mediocre except in your imagination.

I'm sure that the people at the tippy-top consider you to be a mediocre & disposable performer as well.

The point is that having a job to earn money can't be both a necessity and a privilege in a modern democracy no matter how badly you think it should be that way. Clearly, those allocations of resources cannot be left to the whims of our financial elite because they have proven themselves to be unreliable in holding up their end of the social contract. They serve only themselves & claim righteousness in doing so even though their actions affect the whole country. Their leadership has been irresponsible, to say the least.

That's completely obvious given the divergent fortunes of the .01% and middle America.

It's amazing that people who bitterly claim that America is going to Hell in a handbasket have internalized what really is the corporate line so completely that they can't see why at all.

Besides that, if America really is going to Hell in a handbasket, why don't they have to come too?

the problem with you guys is that you truly think your bitching is in some way relevant...I presume you're both on the tail and or about out of the workforce, didn't amount to much, and are now reflecting back on the supposed shitty hand you felt you were dealt and the only resolve is for the government to step in and lift everyone up.

just to be clear, those at the "tippy top" who think I am irrelevant surely could give two shits about what any loser on a message board like this posts....

Having a job to earn money isn't a privilege as clearly indicated by the millions of low income service sector jobs available that seemingly no one wants beyond illegals....anyone can work, the problem is that there are loads of those who either won't accept a downgrade in their situation and thus collect, or just don't see the benefit in contributing at all.

Demanding that jobs pay considerably more without any true basis for that level of compensation is a bit ridiculous...but hey its America right?

To the op the American dream isn't entirely based on individual achievement and performance, but as always working smarter and harder and finding something your passionate about will do a lot to allow you to enjoy it and hopefully prosper, instead you become one of the bitching masses that lives on boards like this.
 
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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The problem is that people can work eight hours a day, and still not make a living.

Government, with it's minimum wage, socialized healthcare, insurance requirements, and slick lawyers, have robbed the American worker of his value or worth.

It's why countries like India can't evolve to the next level, Government, among others steals the worth of the individual.

-John
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
the problem with you guys is that you truly think your bitching is in some way relevant...I presume you're both on the tail and or about out of the workforce, didn't amount to much, and are now reflecting back on the supposed shitty hand you felt you were dealt and the only resolve is for the government to step in and lift everyone up.

If those presumptions are necessary to justify your headset you really need to examine that headset a little deeper.

just to be clear, those at the "tippy top" who think I am irrelevant surely could give two shits about what any loser on a message board like this posts....

I'm sure they count you among the losers as well. Amazing how you can confirm what I said while trying valiantly to make it personal & derogatory.

Having a job to earn money isn't a privilege as clearly indicated by the millions of low income service sector jobs available that seemingly no one wants beyond illegals....anyone can work, the problem is that there are loads of those who either won't accept a downgrade in their situation and thus collect, or just don't see the benefit in contributing at all.

Demanding that jobs pay considerably more without any true basis for that level of compensation is a bit ridiculous...but hey its America right?

I thought you were a free market guy but you seem to want to renounce that when it suits your argument. If employers suffer a lack of labor they'd pay more to have it, right? The fact that they don't means there's no shortage at all even with low workforce participation.

To the op the American dream isn't entirely based on individual achievement and performance, but as always working smarter and harder and finding something your passionate about will do a lot to allow you to enjoy it and hopefully prosper, instead you become one of the bitching masses that lives on boards like this.

You really have swallowed the corporate line. You acknowledge that Rich people run this country, so why can't you acknowledge that it is the way they've made it rather than blaming all the little people who just have to deal with economic forces beyond their control?
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
If those presumptions are necessary to justify your headset you really need to examine that headset a little deeper.

So you're saying you're not someone that is now out of the workforce, while in it accomplishing little, and now spending most of your time bitching on an internet message board about how the system is set up to screw 99% of the population?

I'm sure they count you among the losers as well. Amazing how you can confirm what I said while trying valiantly to make it personal & derogatory.

Remind me where I said otherwise? not sure why you and mootbag keep pushing this as it doesn't have much of an effect, heck if I were them I'd agree, but the difference is you don't see me getting all bent and disgruntled about it.

I thought you were a free market guy but you seem to want to renounce that when it suits your argument. If employers suffer a lack of labor they'd pay more to have it, right? The fact that they don't means there's no shortage at all even with low workforce participation.

What? you don't even make sense with this....as I had said people who are truly motivated can find work, the low workforce participation is because you have those who either cant or are unwilling to adapt or unwilling to take lower pay then they previously got.

You really have swallowed the corporate line. You acknowledge that Rich people run this country, so why can't you acknowledge that it is the way they've made it rather than blaming all the little people who just have to deal with economic forces beyond their control?

What I don't do is push all of my blame onto the "system" or the elites that hold everyone back but themselves....I know you ultra liberals don't like the term personal responsibility but hey....And Rich people run every country last I checked.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
lol, Jhnn,

You really attack newbies.

-John

not so sure I would consider myself a newbie, Jhnn is a sad sad old man whose time has passed and now just likes to bitch about stuff he has little control over.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
The first time I ever heard about the American dream was in school, so I guess it wasn't anything that was important in my upbringing.

I always thought it was something more of a reason why immigrants came here in the 60's & 70's.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, the set of ideals (Democracy, Rights, Liberty, Opportunity, and Equality) in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility for the family and children, achieved through hard work in a society with few barriers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, the set of ideals (Democracy, Rights, Liberty, Opportunity, and Equality) in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility for the family and children, achieved through hard work in a society with few barriers

But the barriers are not few for the poorest among us.
 
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