The anti-crypto thread

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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
Anyone else finds that humanity, in general are appearing to be getting less intelligent on all issues?

In this thread for sure yeah.

Also, years ago when the plant was running more, there would regularly be dozens of boats at the outlet specifically because the water in that immediate area was pleasantly warm

This is a thing here too but it's a river which tends to be cold even in summer and the outlet is from a nuclear plant. well known and frequented swimming spot.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
Global Warming started precisely when industrialization started. Or other words Excessive Manufacturing/Production. The ONLY way we can limit the global warming is to limit the excessive manufacturing/production.

Exactly. Consumption drives pollution. Trade your F150 for a tesla? -> consumption and hence pollution. Better to keep it till its dead. Getting a new smartphone just because the 2 years are up and your carrier made a good deal? -> consumption which drives pollution. Buying new clothes because the current ones are a year old but still completely ok? -> consumption which creates pollution.

All the talk about "being greener" is just bullshitting to not really have to change and keep making profits. At this point I'm pretty cynical. In europe nuclear is dead due to the green parties so we will end up building new natural gas plants (what a victory! in fact the green party voted against banning fossil fuel in the state that has several nuclear plants, think about that!). Currently I'm just thinking burn all that coal and invest in CO2 capturing like Project Vesta.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,813
11,168
136
lol, when "crap" coins (not the real name but one this forum will allow) are only really worth anything because you can trade for Sats it's pretty sad.

It's not like that. It's just that many people would rather have BTC for its fungibility than whatever it is that happens to be mineable with their dGPU at the moment. NiceHash has to interact with curreny/token markets to make the exchange possible. Whatever it is that people are mining actually has some value in USD.

If NiceHash users ran their own calculations and mined those tokens natively, they could actually make more money by avoiding the % that NiceHash skims off the top to calculate the best possible mining results for the miner and facilitate the exchange of tokens for a common token (usually BTC).
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,024
6,477
136
Exactly. Consumption drives pollution. Trade your F150 for a tesla? -> consumption and hence pollution. Better to keep it till its dead. Getting a new smartphone just because the 2 years are up and your carrier made a good deal? -> consumption which drives pollution. Buying new clothes because the current ones are a year old but still completely ok? -> consumption which creates pollution.

I suppose if you just throw away the thing being replaced, but that truck, phone, or clothing doesn't stop being useful. If someone else purchases it second hand then that's a new product that didn't need to be produced for them. Without looking at something over its entire lifespan I don't think you get a fully accurate idea of how much pollution it generates.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,670
136
Exactly. Consumption drives pollution. Trade your F150 for a tesla? -> consumption and hence pollution. Better to keep it till its dead. Getting a new smartphone just because the 2 years are up and your carrier made a good deal? -> consumption which drives pollution. Buying new clothes because the current ones are a year old but still completely ok? -> consumption which creates pollution.

All the talk about "being greener" is just bullshitting to not really have to change and keep making profits. At this point I'm pretty cynical. In europe nuclear is dead due to the green parties so we will end up building new natural gas plants (what a victory! in fact the green party voted against banning fossil fuel in the state that has several nuclear plants, think about that!). Currently I'm just thinking burn all that coal and invest in CO2 capturing like Project Vesta.
The problem is that every technology that we produce is DESIGNED to be replaced. Which adds up to the pollution, because replacement has to be replaced, and the outgoing tech has to be utilized.

And companies do not work for lowering the impact which is caused by excessive manufacturing. They want to increase the manufacturing. Why? More profits, and this is the only way how inflationary economy can survive. By producing and consuming more end more.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
590
591
136
The problem is that every technology that we produce is DESIGNED to be replaced. Which adds up to the pollution, because replacement has to be replaced, and the outgoing tech has to be utilized.

And companies do not work for lowering the impact which is caused by excessive manufacturing. They want to increase the manufacturing. Why? More profits, and this is the only way how inflationary economy can survive. By producing and consuming more end more.
So, tell me: if the impossible happens and bitcoin becomes a universal currency, is apple suddenly going to stop making iphones? How does switching to a deflationary currency completely stop the need to produce goods? If apple can make a profit in USD, why wouldn't they still try to make a profit in bitcoin? If bitcoin's deflationary, doesn't that give companies with the means to produce even MORE incentive to sell things to get bitcoin since then it's a zero-sum game?

In your ideal bitcoin-only future, are we all gonna spend our lives meditating around bitcoin rai stones? Does this crap ever get used to actually buy things?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,670
136
So, tell me: if the impossible happens and bitcoin becomes a universal currency, is apple suddenly going to stop making iphones? How does switching to a deflationary currency completely stop the need to produce goods? If apple can make a profit in USD, why wouldn't they still try to make a profit in bitcoin? If bitcoin's deflationary, doesn't that give companies with the means to produce even MORE incentive to sell things to get bitcoin since then it's a zero-sum game?

In your ideal bitcoin-only future, are we all gonna spend our lives meditating around bitcoin rai stones? Does this crap ever get used to actually buy things?
It requires reworking of economical principles.

Like making everything as user upgrade'able as possible. As user repairable, as possible. Making anything as standard as possible to simplify manufacturing, and decentralise it.

Making everything as reliable as possible, and not in any way implementing planned obsolescence.

Its not that switching to Deflationary Currency stops us from the need to produce goods. Its just that Bitcoins Deflationary nature ALLOWS us to flip every possible switch, and economical Axiom by 180 degrees in order to make the economy "Sane", and ethical.

Get rid of the things that do not bring "value".
 
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Magic Carpet

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2011
3,477
232
106
Does this crap ever get used to actually buy things?
You can buy things with Bitcoin, I've done that. There are only 2 problems: you never know how much of it you need at any particular moment because most prices are reflected in FIAT and two, it takes a bit of time, so if you are going to book a hotel with it, you need to plan way ahead, at least an hour or so. I prefer my VISA any day of the week. If you have a couple of million to wire across the ocean, then yeah Bitcoin is great. Your payment won't be frozen or scrutinized by the banks. So it all depends on your situation.

There is too much fear & greed in cryptocurrency at the moment. Even if you like the tech and fully behind it, you can't really use it without losing money. I once sent $100, that turned out to be $90 one hour later. Oh boy, how much I was annoyed. The current inflation will be dealt with more printing dollars, so if you think to use BTC to hedge your risks, you may as well do that. I predict it to grow further because of uncertainties in the world even though I don't like it very much.

It requires reworking of economical principles.

Like making everything as user upgrade'able as possible. As user repairable, as possible. Making anything as standard as possible to simplify manufacturing, and decentralise it.

Making everything as reliable as possible, and not in any way implementing planned obsolescence.
I agree with you 100% on this.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
590
591
136
It requires reworking of economical principles.

Like making everything as user upgrade'able as possible. As user repairable, as possible. Making anything as standard as possible to simplify manufacturing, and decentralise it.

Making everything as reliable as possible, and not in any way implementing planned obsolescence.

Its not that switching to Deflationary Currency stops us from the need to produce goods. Its just that Bitcoins Deflationary nature ALLOWS us to flip every possible switch, and economical Axiom by 180 degrees in order to make the economy "Sane", and ethical.

Get rid of the things that do not bring "value".
Sure, how about we get rid of crypto first? Since its only value is speculation and ransomware.

Show your work. How do you go from a deflationary currency to any of that? Currencies (including the US dollar) have gone through deflationary periods before. Why didn't they magically reach enlightenment? Why does crypto have the magical powers? What the hell does the currency used have to do with making things repairable?

If there is some magical philosophy to solve literally every sin of the modern world, why on earth does it rely on currency?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,670
136
Sure, how about we get rid of crypto first? Since its only value is speculation and ransomware.

Show your work. How do you go from a deflationary currency to any of that? Currencies (including the US dollar) have gone through deflationary periods before. Why didn't they magically reach enlightenment? Why does crypto have the magical powers? What the hell does the currency used have to do with making things repairable?

If there is some magical philosophy to solve literally every sin of the modern world, why on earth does it rely on currency?
No. Bitcoin's VALUE comes from the ability to revolutionise the economy.

You are not grasping the bigger picture. Bitcoin is just one part of the economical equation. Because BTC is deflationary in nature, and it will only go up in price(not in value, because it is not quantifiable) that very principle allows us to move away from: Using Natural resources as a means of profit, reducing the manufacturing to the absolute minimum required, and making everything possibly as SUSTAINABLE as possible. And most importantly.

You ask this:
If there is some magical philosophy to solve literally every sin of the modern world, why on earth does it rely on currency?

I answer: because Bitcoin, and other cryptocurrencies, are the FIRST socio-economic projects that are completely independent from any form of government, be it banks, financial institutions, or real Governments and nobody can affect its VALUE.

Because they are not belonging to: Banks, Govenrments, the society, or rather the blockchain network becomes its own Government.

Previously, we built our Economy based on natural resources, and currency was just abstract layer, as a measure for wealth. Everything grew up from this principle - fight over natural resources.

Now, thanks to the principle that Currency has two key things: its "nobody's", and its value is not quantifiable, we can rewrite the whole economy, and built it around ethical principles: We don't need to compete for natural resources, we don't need to use them for profit, we can switch from making "profit" to creating value on this planet, in order to increase the value of the currency that we use.

How do we make value? By creating stuff that is meaningful for our lives: making technology more sustainable, creating lower impact on the planet, making everything more efficient, feeding people, making them healthy, making food more healthier. Doing more with less. Earning more, with less.

THAT is the difference.

This discussion already is very radical. And yet, I even have not written the most radical economical principle that is required for making this type of economy work.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
590
591
136
This discussion already is very radical. And yet, I even have not written the most radical economical principle that is required for making this type of economy work.
No, this isn't even radical, it's nonsensical from the start. You aren't following any kind of coherent thought. Just one example:

Because BTC is deflationary in nature, and it will only go up in price(not in value, because it is not quantifiable)
What does this even mean? The value isn't quantifiable, but price is? What are you even measuring the price against if it magically makes all desire for profit to go away?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,670
136
No, this isn't even radical, it's nonsensical from the start. You aren't following any kind of coherent thought. Just one example:


What does this even mean? The value isn't quantifiable, but price is? What are you even measuring the price against if it magically makes all desire for profit to go away?
Price is subjective with something else. Value is subjective, or objective?

There is plenty of low value products that have high prices, that people are willing to pay, in todays economy.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,069
7,492
136

-Looks like the real issue there is folk's credit scores, which is never going to go anywhere.

So why does that have anything to do with why we need Bitcoin? If someone lends someone else Bitcoin, aren't they going to want a quantifiable measurement of that person's ability to repay the loan (if not the credit bureaus, then something else basically exactly like the beureaus)?
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
? If someone lends someone else Bitcoin, aren't they going to want a quantifiable measurement of that person's ability to repay the loan (if not the credit bureaus, then something else basically exactly like the beureaus)?

Well not in bitcoin but in a blockchain with smart contracts you can probably come up with something.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,024
6,477
136
No. Bitcoin's VALUE comes from the ability to revolutionise the economy.

You are not grasping the bigger picture. Bitcoin is just one part of the economical equation. Because BTC is deflationary in nature, and it will only go up in price(not in value, because it is not quantifiable) that very principle allows us to move away from: Using Natural resources as a means of profit, reducing the manufacturing to the absolute minimum required, and making everything possibly as SUSTAINABLE as possible. And most importantly.

I'm not sure how Bitcoin really changes anything by itself and you really do need to provide a good explanation of how exactly it's supposed to achieve any of what you claim is a natural result of wider adoption of Bitcoin. Further there's nothing that stops utilization of natural resources from being profitable. The mere fact that they can be extracted and transformed into something else that humans value more makes that endeavor more profitable.

I answer: because Bitcoin, and other cryptocurrencies, are the FIRST socio-economic projects that are completely independent from any form of government, be it banks, financial institutions, or real Governments and nobody can affect its VALUE.

I'm not sure how you can claim that no one can affect its value when we see that happening all of the time. Governments allowing or banning it have caused huge fluctuations in its valuation. Anyone who could pull off a 51% attack can greatly affect the value of Bitcoin.

Previously, we built our Economy based on natural resources, and currency was just abstract layer, as a measure for wealth. Everything grew up from this principle - fight over natural resources.

Currency has no value without an underlying economy that accepts it as a means of exchange. If no stores take Bitcoin and you can't get anyone else to accept it, does it matter how much you have? Similarly if there were a global disaster that halved production of every good and service, the value of Bitcoin doesn't remain stable. There's less available for purchase and the same amount of Bitcoin. It's relative value decreases.

Now, thanks to the principle that Currency has two key things: its "nobody's", and its value is not quantifiable, we can rewrite the whole economy, and built it around ethical principles: We don't need to compete for natural resources, we don't need to use them for profit, we can switch from making "profit" to creating value on this planet, in order to increase the value of the currency that we use.

This reads like utter poppycock. What do you mean it's "nobody's" when each Bitcoin is owned by exactly one person. I suppose you could say that the system/network doesn't belong to any one person, but that's not really any different than a credit union which collectively belongs to its members.

Similarly the value is always quantifiable because any exchange of Bitcoin for any good or service is an exact measurement (quantification) of the value. The value of the system itself is more difficult to pin down with an exact number, but we can still value it based on how well it serves the purposes it exists for and if nothing else can be compared to historical measurements against other systems to provide a relative sense of value.

Regardless of what kind of currency is used, there's not going to be a fundamental shift in human behavior. Bitcoin does nothing to stop humans from competing over natural resources. Profit is merely a reward for creating value because it's a means of judging whether the supposed "value" you've created is actually worth anything to anyone else. It also ensures that resources aren't wasted because engaging in unprofitable activities naturally removes the ability to sustain that activity and continue doing it, at least until there's no more investment to feed it.

How do we make value? By creating stuff that is meaningful for our lives: making technology more sustainable, creating lower impact on the planet, making everything more efficient, feeding people, making them healthy, making food more healthier. Doing more with less. Earning more, with less.

THAT is the difference.

This discussion already is very radical. And yet, I even have not written the most radical economical principle that is required for making this type of economy work.

Somewhere you've conflated a notion that Bitcoin automatically promotes environmentalism, which I don't think is true at all. In fact, a lot of people argue that the environmental impact from it is horrible, but that's neither here nor there for this argument. I think you should realize that the argument falls flat on its face because we've had people interested in more sustainable technologies for decades now well before Bitcoin came into existence. Similarly there has always been a drive to increase efficiency and provide more food (or other goods to people) because doing so generates a larger profit. Profit is what ultimately drives all of this behavior as well as curtails unproductive behavior. Decrying it or thinking you can eliminate it is just foolish nonsense.

Really the only way to get more environmentalist behavior or thinking out of people is to make them value it more than the other things they value which have lead to economic activity that isn't as good for the environment. You can try all you want to make healthier food, or to try to convince people that they should eat it, but good luck getting around the dopamine response to potato chips and soda.

I'm not sure what other more radical economic principle is required, but I have a feeling it doesn't work any better than anything else you've proposed. Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency like it is merely a currency that can function without the need of a traditional banking system. Bitcoin also isn't subject to government control in the sense that more of it can't be created on demand as with fiat currencies, but there's absolutely no reason that a cryptocurrency couldn't be created to function in a manner similar to traditional fiat currencies in that regard.

This notion that it will revolutionize the economy or change human behavior is as ridiculous as the notion that Bitcoin is nothing but a worthless scam. It's just a different and rather novel solution to an age old problem that humanity has had and like all of our previous solutions comes with its own set of positives and negatives.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136

This is what happens when you have an inflationary currency.

Incorrect. This is what happens when there is a supply-demand imbalance thanks to a historic global pandemic, which is what the article really says. Demand is way up versus last year because the country is opening back up, people are going back to work and making a lot more money doing so thanks to a shortage of labor and resulting higher pay. Most people also saved far more than normal last year and are now looking to spend it. Supply takes time to catch back up after people shifted their consumption habits last year.

If you think a mildly inflationary currency is bad, wait until you see the result of an economy based on a highly deflationary currency. It would make the covid shutdowns of last year look like a cakewalk as people hoard their currency, which “gains value” every day, and sends economic activity cratering into a deflationary spiral. There really isn’t a better way that I can think of to completely cripple the country and make most people significantly worse off.

edit: @scineram do you have an intelligent rebuttal or do you prefer do hide behind downvotes like a coward?
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,024
6,477
136
Comparing a mildly inflationary currency against a highly deflationary one isn't really a fair comparison. Historically we've seen what high rates of inflation do and they're just as bad in terms of their economic damage and the instability that results. A highly deflationary economy does at least seem like it would self-correct at some point because as the relative supply of goods and services decreases, the value of the currency adjusts relative to that. Assuming no economic activity, the currency can't gain value as long as the supply of currency doesn't change. If the currency wasn't naturally deflationary by design a controlling entity could just inject more money, which would make it temporarily inflationary, but even if it's naturally deflationary at that point economic activity is probably a better investment.

Assuming a currency with a small rate of deflation, it wouldn't change much. If your money is only worth an additional 2% more year over year, it takes a considerable amount of time (roughly 35 years) before it would double in value. Any activity or investment that you expect to create more value over that term is still worth spending your money on, but it does lead to a desire to take fewer (or lower) risks with investments. The problem with something like Bitcoin is that you can't really control the rate of deflation to keep it low, or within a particular range where it doesn't start to create some kind of feedback loop that results in overall economic damges.

There are some other effects, such as stabilizing the cost of housing assuming the increase in house value offsets the deflation rate of the currency. Assuming the same 2% yearly rate of deflation and a 2% year increase in the value of a home, you'd sell it for the same amount paid at any point in time if there aren't any other factors influencing the price at the time. It works the opposite for anything that depreciates in value though, so something like a used car would have to be sold for less than it otherwise would be, but we're not quite at the point where a vehicle's loss of value over time is anywhere near close to being offset by inflation rates, but perhaps this changes as we get better electric vehicles. Any money you don't spend naturally acts as a savings/retirement account, but still not as good of one as an investment account would. There's some other weirdness, such as debts always accruing on borrowed money unless the lender charges a negative interest rate to offset the deflation.

Comparing something like Bitcoin to traditional currency is simply weird for the reason that the traditional fiat currencies can be printed on demand whereas Bitcoin can't. Really there's nothing stopping a country from using the same structure that Bitcoin has an announcing how much new currency will be added every year, but good luck finding a government that would ever agree to being able to spend less and less each year because of limitations on the amount of money it can print going forward.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136
Comparing a mildly inflationary currency against a highly deflationary one isn't really a fair comparison. Historically we've seen what high rates of inflation do and they're just as bad in terms of their economic damage and the instability that results. A highly deflationary economy does at least seem like it would self-correct at some point because as the relative supply of goods and services decreases, the value of the currency adjusts relative to that. Assuming no economic activity, the currency can't gain value as long as the supply of currency doesn't change. If the currency wasn't naturally deflationary by design a controlling entity could just inject more money, which would make it temporarily inflationary, but even if it's naturally deflationary at that point economic activity is probably a better investment.

Assuming a currency with a small rate of deflation, it wouldn't change much. If your money is only worth an additional 2% more year over year, it takes a considerable amount of time (roughly 35 years) before it would double in value. Any activity or investment that you expect to create more value over that term is still worth spending your money on, but it does lead to a desire to take fewer (or lower) risks with investments. The problem with something like Bitcoin is that you can't really control the rate of deflation to keep it low, or within a particular range where it doesn't start to create some kind of feedback loop that results in overall economic damges.

There are some other effects, such as stabilizing the cost of housing assuming the increase in house value offsets the deflation rate of the currency. Assuming the same 2% yearly rate of deflation and a 2% year increase in the value of a home, you'd sell it for the same amount paid at any point in time if there aren't any other factors influencing the price at the time. It works the opposite for anything that depreciates in value though, so something like a used car would have to be sold for less than it otherwise would be, but we're not quite at the point where a vehicle's loss of value over time is anywhere near close to being offset by inflation rates, but perhaps this changes as we get better electric vehicles. Any money you don't spend naturally acts as a savings/retirement account, but still not as good of one as an investment account would. There's some other weirdness, such as debts always accruing on borrowed money unless the lender charges a negative interest rate to offset the deflation.

Comparing something like Bitcoin to traditional currency is simply weird for the reason that the traditional fiat currencies can be printed on demand whereas Bitcoin can't. Really there's nothing stopping a country from using the same structure that Bitcoin has an announcing how much new currency will be added every year, but good luck finding a government that would ever agree to being able to spend less and less each year because of limitations on the amount of money it can print going forward.

I generally don’t disagree with any of this, but the bolded is an important point and actually brings up a major advantage of a mildly inflationary currency for anyone with debt that tends to get ignored. For most people, at least in the US, their home will be their single largest purchase and single biggest monthly spend, and they’ll likely spend about 30 years paying for it. With 2% inflation (e.g. what we’ve had for the past 15 years or so, slightly below what the federal reserve targets) the effective value of that constant monthly payment decreases to about half by the end, significantly reducing the burden of that payment relative to increasing pay. It would turn the value proposition of property loans on its head for the burden of that payment to double by the end of the loan term.

I know I’d personally be paying off my mortgage significantly faster if my payment wasn’t being eaten away by inflation, and consequently I’d be injecting far less money into the overall economy in favor of it going to my bank.
 
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