The anti-crypto thread

[BFG10K]

Great news, crypto's collapsing across the board: https://www.techpowerup.com/282380/...ions-in-less-than-24-hours-did-the-bubble-pop

Also China's banned crypto, though individuals can still have it: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinese-financial-payment-bodies-barred-122712260.html

The sooner this cancerous parasite is wiped out, the better.

 

[B-Riz]

I think it is less of timing more of 'this time is not different' attitude from those who have been around for a little longer than millennials or have attention span longer than few seconds.

- is digital currency likely ? sure, absolutely. In each country and between countries. You already are not paying for the car/house/big purchase with loads of cash, it is all documents/wire. In many cases you are not paying for things like TV, laptop, etc with cash , it is all credit/debit card.

- is this digitalization good or bad? Who knows! Each individual state would LOVE to see absolutely everything you do (from tips you pay to change you give to person asking for it). If state can see it -> it can control it, tax it, etc.

- are states going to clamped down on it? certainly. national security risks, shady activities , etc.

-> is made up "state-free" crypto long term? Who knows. I dont think so, many reasons including
-- absolutely zero intrinsic value. not even hot air
-- no way to enforce transaction. If you are cheated, what jurisdiction is this going to be recovered under? who guarantees payment?
-- zero privacy (absolute control, much worse than fiat cash)
-- zero control over the amount that is 'created' or destroyed, or claimed to be created or destroyed.

total scam and very typical mania, not different from any other manias that happened many times in history (tulip mania ,etc).

and as in every other mania , in every time it happened - few early 'promoters' would steal the money from the pyramid and run away with it, few get away with what they put in , vast majority get totally burned. and very soon I think regulation is coming controlling this, the regulation that people would demand , in order to better 'protect them'.

i.e. if I create dog-e-share offering today and offer shares to public, I would be nailed on many , many laws and end up with proceeds confiscated and myself in jail
however, if I create dog-e-coin and offer even less , with zero regulation , zero information -> then somehow it is ok to do so. Why?

My grandparents grew up and lived through the Great Depression (stock bubble burst) and have instilled a strong sense of skepticism in me about stuff that seems too good to be true.

Crypto currency looks, smells and acts like one big too good to be true scam. And I really don't like how easily it enables dark money transaction for criminal enterprise.

Once the governments figure out how to tax it effectively, well, game over, it will be worth no more or less than the countries currency.

 

[Dribble]

You know the best thing about Bitcoin and Eth rapidly falling? It massively increases the profits of miners. They were about 5x last night when I looked and will continue to be higher while their is volatility

Not sure how falling prices for what you mine can make you better off?

 

[NTMBK]

Hopefully it continues to burst, and everyone moves on to Pokémon cards or whatever.

 

[biostud]

#20 All currency relies in trust, as they have no value if people does not accept that value. Normal currencies are backed by a state and a national bank, which will try to intervene when crises arise to negate wild fluctuations (including speculative investments). Cryptocurrency is by default totally anarchistic with no institutions to back it up. The reason cryptocurrencies exist is that it can be used in the criminal world without tracking, for white washing and that the value has kept skyrocketing because of speculative investing, (and a very little group of idealistic people)

 

[jpiniero]

Hopefully it continues to burst, and everyone moves on to Pokémon cards or whatever.

People are doing that too actually. Target stopped selling them in store because people were getting obnoxious.

 

[maddogmcgee]

Not sure how falling prices for what you mine can make you better off?

Miners are required for transactions to take place. The more transactions that people request, the higher the price of the transaction. The more people selling, the higher the profit the miner makes.

 

[maddogmcgee]

People are doing that too actually. Target stopped selling them in store because people were getting obnoxious.

I think some American stories stopped selling MTG cards as well. People were checking the pack for the cards then buying or returning. .

 

[CP5670]

I don't think this is a collapse at all. 50%+ drops have occurred many times before, and it recovers eventually. I'm bullish on the concept of cryptocurrency, but most of the major existing currencies have serious flaws and will never be useful for anything but speculation.

This may reduce the video card prices on ebay in the next few months though, so if you were holding off, you may get a chance now.

 

[amenx]

The last "collapse" occurred a couple years ago and was more severe than this (50-60%). Recovered to the all-time highs we saw this year.

 

[simas]

I don't think this is a collapse at all. 50%+ drops have occurred many times before, and it recovers eventually. I'm bullish on the concept of cryptocurrency, but most of the major existing currencies have serious flaws and will never be useful for anything but speculation.

This may reduce the video card prices on ebay in the next few months though, so if you were holding off, you may get a chance now.

I think it comes to opinions, i.e. mine is that long term value of non state sponsored (and therefore supported, protected, etc) e-currency is zero. Many reasons already mentioned many times (extremely easy to manipulate, not a store of value at all, horrible transactional fees, zero support/guarantee, no enforcement ,etc). Take all of the worst from any currency , add to it stock manipulation prior to regulation, add to it absolute fraud => current 'crypto' market.

Add to it a stigma that it receives (crypto is for bad actors only, ransom payments, etc) and it could quickly become a liability vs an asset.. This is not dissimilar to say 'owning' highly illegal goods (i.e. cocaine). Does it have 'value'? probably , to some characters. Can you sell it? May be, and you may even be alive after such sale. Can you enforce the sale? not sure, what court are you going to be going to to petition being cheated at drug deal?

And states can shut this within days if they want to , i.e. all US can easily do is just make mining an accessory to whatever crime (real or perceived) being committed - did you mine or processed transactions for network that was later used in payment for pipeline ransom? Congratulations you were/are aiding and abetting criminal activity and a criminal itself. You processed transactions for network used to fund terrorism somewhere (or activity stated to be terrorism), congratulations - you are now under the eye of the law and VERY strict penalties. Child pornography, human slavery, etc. the moment you dive into unregulated, you also become very unprotected and could be made an example of to deter others. Do you feel luck today? Do you want to be the test case if the state decided to make its point?

In the end
- so as a gamer, I dont really care short term what the price of video card is - I either buy or not buy component based on value I perceive.
- similarly as a gamer, i dont wish ill towards 'miners' - whatever people do with their hardware is their business. I do hope people don't get burn when this turns into dust it is but that is separate in terms of their financial well being
- as person who have been around a little , I also seen 'this time it is different' more times than one , along with gambling where other side is the power of the state - you will always lose (because state can change the rules and you do not).

whether this bounces back today, tomorrow, next week, whatever - irrelevant to me. this is radiated poison that will drug a lot of financial assets down and with it the financial fortunes of fools that went into it (while snake oil salesmen if dog-e-coin, cat-e-coin, pet-e-coin will as always escape the punishment). Dont be stupid, dont get drugged into something you do not understand , dont get hurt when the hummer comes down - that is it.

 

[moonbogg]

The solution is staring you all right in the face: we need an army of Sentinels to seek and destroy every GPU being used for mining. Once this happens, destroying the miners won't be necessary as they'll never do it again. But if they do...

 

[njdevilsfan87]

I'll be completely honest, I have no idea how you think cryptos solve pandemic price hikes or the housing market. Those are both supply and demand, no matter what currency is used. Cryptos don't suddenly fix disrupted supply chains or make enough houses to satisfy demand. Care to elaborate?

Oh, and regarding the stock market, I agree it's insane. Cryptos are no better or even worse. Look at today, ALL the big exchanges (Binance, Kraken, Coinbase) restricted sales or mysteriously crashed at the same time. Meanwhile, they were still letting Coinbase Prime businesses trade. Hmm?

DEXes. Which are only possible because of smart contract technology! Binance, Kraken, Coinbase and etc may eventually be reduced to fiat onramps/offramps and high frequency trading. The average person may have no need to use those if/when you can sell your crypto straight into USDC/USDT using a DEX. You can already do that today, though fees are high. Again, technological progress should solve these issues, and these are things that did not exist at all just a few years ago.

As far as crypto solving price hikes - they don't. But they'll be more likely to keep up and shield you from true inflation, while the dollar continues to lose value every second. This is because the rules are in place and set. We know how much Bitcoin there is and ever will be. Meanwhile the fed may be planning to print another trillion next month. Or they could play games with interest rates (in the crypto markets, interest rates are natural and based purely on true supply and demand and in real-time).

 

[simas]

As far as crypto solving price hikes - they don't. But they'll be more likely to keep up and shield you from true inflation, while the dollar continues to lose value every second. This is because the rules are in place and set. We know how much Bitcoin there is and ever will be. Meanwhile the fed may be planning to print another trillion next month. Or they could play games with interest rates (in the crypto markets, interest rates are natural and based purely on true supply and demand and in real-time).

for my education as I am curious - how can you be certain of the above? I read stories of 'real bitcoins' (if there is such a thing) declared counterfeited and digitally revoked/destroyed (something completely not possible with real physical asset like gold - gold in your hand can not be revoked by any anonymous body somewhere..).

who guarantees that? what is my remedy if tomorrow suddenly earlier people in this pyramid declare that they 'found' another few million/trillion/whatever coins? what remedy you or myself as person have? who do you even go to?

I would appreciate education and willing to learn..

 

[Steltek]

American regulation is beginning as well. As of today, any crypto transfer worth more than $10,000 now has to be reported to the IRS in the States:

U.S. Treasury calls for stricter cryptocurrency compliance with IRS, says they pose tax evasion risk

The Treasury Department announced that it will require any transfer worth $10,000 or more to be reported to the IRS.

www.cnbc.com

And, if they are reporting to the IRS, it is logical to presume that both parties (sender and recipient) will be required to be legally identifiable.

As far as I am concerned, the end of crypto can't come soon enough.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

for my education as I am curious - how can you be certain of the above? I read stories of 'real bitcoins' (if there is such a thing) declared counterfeited and digitally revoked/destroyed (something completely not possible with real physical asset like gold - gold in your hand can not be revoked by any anonymous body somewhere..).

who guarantees that? what is my remedy if tomorrow suddenly earlier people in this pyramid declare that they 'found' another few million/trillion/whatever coins? what remedy you or myself as person have? who do you even go to?

I would appreciate education and willing to learn..

This is related to network security and network hash rate, and "51% attacks" - you can Google those to get a better idea of that.

The network is decentralized. Decentralized the most import term for anyone new to begin to understand why Bitcoin works as a store of value. Because the network operates decentralized, no one user can try to change the rules. That is unless they dominate the network (51% attack). And even then such an attack can still fail or be very costly in success for the attacker. It's very unlikely to happen to something as large as Bitcoin: how many GPUs on ASICs would you need today? And even if there is collusion of some sort - the worst that is happened is you end up with forks of Bitcoin that most people don't care about (for example, Bitcoin Cash). The decade it has been running and functioning is a testament to its security. Compare this to fiat, which is under centralized control. Governments can do what they wish whenever they wish with fiat currency. Not that they will do anything and I'm not saying don't trust your government: I do believe many try to do their best - but sometimes their decisions aren't always the best. Humans make mistakes and it comes back to hurt them later down the line (see Venezuela). Same deal in the US now: was printing trillions the right thing to do? Who knows, we'll see soon.

The more users (or miners), the more secure the network becomes. Bitcoin gets more secure by the day as hash rate rises. Everyone ends up validating each other, and that's how the network prevents anyone from declaring they found a million new Bitcoin. Someone could try, but the rest of the network would reject them.

Bitcoin is also secured by encryption that is impossible to reverse engineer on today's computers. It's simply not possible to hack anyone's private key. Maybe quantum computers will be able to do it one day, but unless those go beyond basic arithmetic: they won't.

Finally, once a transaction goes through it cannot be revoked so I am not sure what stories you may have read on that topic. The only way to effectively "destroy" a Bitcoin is to send a wallet with an encrypted password that nobody knows.

Could this all still collapse via Bitcoin hack or security breach? Sure. Everything works until it doesn't. But the odds of that happening seem to be less likely than a meteor causing a mass extinction within our lifetimes.

 

[simas]

This is related to network security and network hash rate, and "51% attacks" - you can Google those to get a better idea of that.

The network is decentralized. Decentralized the most import term for anyone new to begin to understand why Bitcoin works as a store of value. Because the network operates decentralized, no one user can try to change the rules. That is unless they dominate the network (51% attack). And even then such an attack can still fail or be very costly in success for the attacker. It's very unlikely to happen to something as large as Bitcoin: how many GPUs on ASICs would you need today? And even if there is collusion of some sort - the worst that is happened is you end up with forks of Bitcoin that most people don't care about (for example, Bitcoin Cash). The decade it has been running and functioning is a testament to its security. Compare this to fiat, which is under centralized control. Governments can do what they wish whenever they wish with fiat currency. Not that they will do anything and I'm not saying don't trust your government: I do believe many try to do their best - but sometimes their decisions aren't always the best. Humans make mistakes and it comes back to hurt them later down the line (see Venezuela). Same deal in the US now: was printing trillions the right thing to do? Who knows, we'll see soon.

The more users (or miners), the more secure the network becomes. Bitcoin gets more secure by the day as hash rate rises. Everyone ends up validating each other, and that's how the network prevents anyone from declaring they found a million new Bitcoin. Someone could try, but the rest of the network would reject them.

Bitcoin is also secured by encryption that is impossible to reverse engineer on today's computers. It's simply not possible to hack anyone's private key. Maybe quantum computers will be able to do it one day, but unless those go beyond basic arithmetic: they won't.

Finally, once a transaction goes through it cannot be revoked so I am not sure what stories you may have read on that topic. The only way to effectively "destroy" a Bitcoin is to send a wallet with an encrypted password that nobody knows.

Could this all still collapse via Bitcoin hack or security breach? Sure. Everything works until it doesn't. But the odds of that happening seem to be less likely than a meteor causing a mass extinction within our lifetimes.

interesting, thank you for details. I still don't understand the secure part - if these are so secure (the more secure the larger the network is) then why do splits (forks?) exist and you end up with things 'most people don't care about' ?? How can this be money in any form of payment?

regarding government, etc- probably for different forum/bigger conversation. among other functions government issuing currency guarantees it would be accepted in places under its jurisdiction and offers all of the framework protecting the value you of what it/they issue. how does it work with bitcoin? if it is outlawed for payment in some future, what is the point of this then ? if you can not legally exchange crypto X into currency of the current you are in , why and how would any legitimate merchant accept it? i can put up a lemonade stand and declare "pay me in bottlecaps" but that does not make it a 'currency'... what am I missing?

separately , on conflict resolution I assume there is some conflict resolution mechanism built-in. who enforces it? what happens if I disagree with results of conflict resolution? what legal remedies are available and under whos law is this governed? if the answer is 'none', then why again would this matter beyond abstract (even if fairly interesting) math?

thank you for your help

 

[Fallen Kell]

Its not like its a national security threat requiring very harsh measures. The crypto owners holdings are vast and can be an asset to the Chinese economy, so theres no point for the state to crack down too hard on them. They just want to crimp their ability to continue generating or investing in highly speculative instruments that can ultimately become a problem at some point in time. Anything too speculative backed up by zero assets is probably what concerns the Chinese, esp if done on too large a scale.

Not really. It is more about control. Control of who can get rich is a very big thing over there, and they are finally realizing that this is a method that circumvents the normal controls that they have in place. The last thing that they want is a "peasant" revolt on their hands as that is what lead to the last great civil war which brought about the current form of government. The current system works because the government has control over many of the big corporations and investments, and/or can decide to take over control. They tightly regulate their currency, to make sure that it more beneficial for their current trade status in the world (i.e. they export more than import, meaning it is good if they can price the economy such that it is cheaper to buy items from them by keeping the value of the currency low compared to other nations). Cryptocurreny has the ability to circumvent all of that. Trades and movement of funds is now out of direct view and control of the government, and this is what they have been starting to realize over the last 3-4 years now that cryptocurrency has become something other than a fad in their eyes. It is a direct threat on their control of the economy (imagine businesses starting to accept it as payment over there, or paying workers, or suppliers, or placing bribes)... This is what they don't want and why it is being cracked down on.

 

[Leeea]

That is unless they dominate the network (51% attack).

About that.

With the reward Bitcoin gives to miners being cut in half every three years, it is inevitable it will cost more to mine bitcoin then it is worth quite quickly.

When that happens, it is rather probable the number of miners will take a nose dive. After all, why lose money protecting someone else's investment?

This leaves the bitcoin holders in an interesting predicament. They either need to insure the number of individual miners stay high by having people mine at a loss, or allow their investment become vulnerable to theft via 51% attack.

As we saw with bitcoin gold alt coin, the 51% attack is very achievable, very profitable, and the inevitable end to cryptocurrencies when mining is no longer profitable enough.

 

[fleshconsumed]

American regulation is beginning as well. As of today, any crypto transfer worth more than $10,000 now has to be reported to the IRS in the States:

U.S. Treasury calls for stricter cryptocurrency compliance with IRS, says they pose tax evasion risk

The Treasury Department announced that it will require any transfer worth $10,000 or more to be reported to the IRS.

www.cnbc.com

And, if they are reporting to the IRS, it is logical to presume that both parties (sender and recipient) will be required to be legally identifiable.

As far as I am concerned, the end of crypto can't come soon enough.

Not now. In 2023.

Crypto is here to stay. We have no idea how it'll evolve, but it will evolve and it will stay. Crypt/blockchain has potential to solve great many real world problems if they can get the blockchain technology working right. After ETH moves to PoS the only power hog left will be BTC, and I sincerely hope that in the next 5-10 years some PoS project will replace BTC and BTC will fade away.

 

[Leeea]

After ETH moves to PoS

I think this is a big deal.

It is one of the things that makes Eth far more enduring then bitcoin. They just keep updating and changing it to overcome its issues. It is not set in stone like the inflexibility of bitcoin.

For that reason I believe nothing short of full on government intervention will stop Eth. Government intervention that seems sadly unlikely.

 

[simas]

I think this is a big deal.

It is one of the things that makes Eth far more enduring then bitcoin. They just keep updating and changing it to overcome its issues. It is not set in stone like the inflexibility of bitcoin.

For that reason I believe nothing short of full on government intervention will stop Eth. Government intervention that seems sadly unlikely.

from the point of view of the government this is awesome - a bunch of people passing some made up 'boogie' back and forth and generating capital gain (and capital gain taxes) each time. Transaction fees go to the intermediates (who would be forced to pay their own taxes and licensing fees and regulatory oversight and whatever else we can come up with to drain the money from them i.e. environment support fees ), government receives capital gains (which in US are soon to go to 40% on the high rate) and nothing really changes except bits of who is holding that token this minute/second. keep going guys! support the economy ! all government wants is enforcement/tracking and i think it would get it. next is taxing your 'mining' - surely you are generating gains by doing so and thus it must be taxed (we have many pet programs or places we want to steal from, so more funding is always needed , 'think of the children').

Now if government can not tax it, they will outlaw it..

As for Eth and PoS - I heard that story for a while and every time it keeps moving forward. One of those, we will believe it when we will see it actually happen..

 

[Mopetar]

I think this is a big deal.

It is one of the things that makes Eth far more enduring then bitcoin. They just keep updating and changing it to overcome its issues. It is not set in stone like the inflexibility of bitcoin.

For that reason I believe nothing short of full on government intervention will stop Eth. Government intervention that seems sadly unlikely.

It'll probably result in a fork and the creation of two different currencies because the people who've made a massive investment in the setup required for a PoW coin aren't really going to want to change to PoS since they also tend not to keep their own coins. I suppose they could start doing that now as a potential hedge since they know it's coming, but that creates its own uncertainty.

 

[Leeea]

It'll probably result in a fork and the creation of two different currencies because the people who've made a massive investment in the setup required for a PoW coin aren't really going to want to change to PoS since they also tend not to keep their own coins. I suppose they could start doing that now as a potential hedge since they know it's coming, but that creates its own uncertainty.

That already happened once already with Eth classic.

Eth classic was created when the Eth oversight board disliked some transactions on the Eth blockchain and said nope, and voided those transactions.

The sweet thing is if you owned Eth before the fork (and I did), then you had Eth normal and Eth classic. I sold the classic and the normal and took the money from both chains. (probably a mistake in hindsight).

 

[beginner99]

Totally disagree. It is a waste of Energy, that's all.

Not with proof of stake.

 

[beginner99]

As for Eth and PoS - I heard that story for a while and every time it keeps moving forward. One of those, we will believe it when we will see it actually happen..

Well you can start staking right now if you whish to do so. Only issue is you need at least 32 ETH.