The anti-crypto thread

[BFG10K]

Great news, crypto's collapsing across the board: https://www.techpowerup.com/282380/...ions-in-less-than-24-hours-did-the-bubble-pop

Also China's banned crypto, though individuals can still have it: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinese-financial-payment-bodies-barred-122712260.html

The sooner this cancerous parasite is wiped out, the better.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Yes? How do you defraud Steam? Either the payment method clears and Valve gets the money or they don't.

Honestly? You're asking for a lot of details that none of us will know and not accepting any of the explanations we can give. Go email Gabe Newell. And I mean that 100% unironically. At least as-of a few years ago, he answered damn near every email he got from random people.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Honestly? You're asking for a lot of details that none of us will know and not accepting any of the explanations we can give. Go email Gabe Newell. And I mean that 100% unironically. At least as-of a few years ago, he answered damn near every email he got from random people.

I believe Gabe's point was the crypto monies were either illegally acquired and/or the people using them were involved in illegal stuff. He mentioned that accepting crypro currency attracted all sorts of shady characters or something like that. Basically it attracted they type of people you could not trust thus doing business with them is a bad idea.

 

[beginner99]

If the last thirteen years weren't long enough for the failed tech to be useful, why would the next thirteen be any different?

Like "traditional banking" went from 0 to 100 in thirteen years. In fact crypto is used globally already. I'm pretty sure it took banking centuries to be used globally.

We could make a parallel to aircraft. When was the first flight? 1903. When was the first commercial flight? In 1914. So it took 11 years for a handful of people to use this brand new tech. First commercial transatlantic line was established in 39. 36 years after invention. Mass adoption of new tech takes forever even more so if security is highly relevant!

EDIT: You sound like the type of people that said going faster than 20mph in a train is not possible because you will suffocate.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Like "traditional banking" went from 0 to 100 in thirteen years. In fact crypto is used globally already. I'm pretty sure it took banking centuries to be used globally.

We could make a parallel to aircraft. When was the first flight? 1903. When was the first commercial flight? In 1914. So it took 11 years for a handful of people to use this brand new tech. First commercial transatlantic line was established in 39. 36 years after invention. Mass adoption of new tech takes forever even more so if security is highly relevant!

EDIT: You sound like the type of people that said going faster than 20mph in a train is not possible because you will suffocate.

Yes, banking grew over time because tech grew more slowly in antiquity and the middle ages. But there was an obvious use and it could be quickly adapted. By the time of the crusades, a pilgrim could make a deposit in Europe before they left and the money would be in their account by the time they arrived.

Flight just proves my point. It was immediately apparent it was useful. It took eleven years to get to a commercial flight with 1903 tech and communication, so that advancement is impressive. And by WWI, planes were being used not just fore transport and spotting but for combat roles as well. That's a lot of progress in a short amount of time. In comparison, crypto's gone nowhere since 2008. Like you said, it sucks now and all you can do is speculate and pray it magically gets better in the future.

 

[drnickriviera]

And it continues to free-fall with the Ukrainian invasion:

Bitcoin tanks 12% after Moscow strike on Ukraine; altcoins bleed

The crypto behemoth slipped below $34,500 levels from $39,122 earlier. However, it recovered back to $34,732 by 13.00 hours IST, the data from coinmarketcap suggested. The total volumes zoomed over 41 per cent as Bitcoin worth $32.5 billion exchanged hands in the last 24 hours, the data suggested.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Yep, I can definitely see the "stability" and "hedge against inflation" Cryptobros told us about. Ironically the only fiat falling just as badly is the Russian ruble.

Guys, guys, it's totally fine, all those Ukrainians will just cross the border with their paper wallets and become millionaires in no time!

I'll see your crypto collapse and raise you some war funding
Ukraine's government raises crypto worth $8 million in crowdfunding appeal
Be interesting to see where that money goes and how it is used

 

[MrSquished]

Yes, banking grew over time because tech grew more slowly in antiquity and the middle ages. But there was an obvious use and it could be quickly adapted. By the time of the crusades, a pilgrim could make a deposit in Europe before they left and the money would be in their account by the time they arrived.

Flight just proves my point. It was immediately apparent it was useful. It took eleven years to get to a commercial flight with 1903 tech and communication, so that advancement is impressive. And by WWI, planes were being used not just fore transport and spotting but for combat roles as well. That's a lot of progress in a short amount of time. In comparison, crypto's gone nowhere since 2008. Like you said, it sucks now and all you can do is speculate and pray it magically gets better in the future.

Bitcoin has shown no usefulness as a good currency for anything in 13 years save fringe uses and for eccentrics

It's. A. Speculative. Investment. Vehicle.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Bitcoin has shown no usefulness as a good currency for anything in 13 years save fringe uses and for eccentrics

It's. A. Speculative. Investment. Vehicle.

Agreed, to date I have not known anyone who has bought anything with any crypto currency. I am talking real world people, not people on the internet.
Shit I am pretty literate in this stuff and I have no clue how to even buy crypto to then buy something with that crypto currency.

 

[beginner99]

In comparison, crypto's gone nowhere since 2008. Like you said, it sucks now and all you can do is speculate and pray it magically gets better in the future.

That is your opinion. Not more not less. The thing is making a decentralized and secure system is extremely hard and requires new computer science discoveries. Even more difficult is making it scale. Hence the inventions of Layer 2 and different strategies to make these secure and scalable. Research zkrollups and within that zksnark. Loopring layer 2 of ethereum actually gets faster and cheaper with more transactions! (because transactions are batched and committed to main chain. more transactions means a batch is full quicker and there are more transactions in them making each one cheaper).

We also have much more user friendly wallets and exchanges as well. You can now stake, loan or be part of liquidity pools which was not possible before. Just because you say no progress happened, because you might not know better, it doesn't make it true in any way.

And back to usefulness. I'm pretty sure many Russians and Ukrainians would be very glad if they had out their savings into crypto. The first because their banks have limited withdrawls to $20 per day. lol and who knows for how long that will remain possible. The later obviously to take their savings with them across the border.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

Just made a $xxxx donation of Ethereum directly to Ukraine. Fees: $3. Time it took: Maybe 30 seconds to confirm. Done.

As much as I support donations and charities - I'm just happy I was able to give money to the cause and nearly instantly while losing nothing due to the overhead of those traditional charities (and more so, the legacy finance systems those charities are still connected to).

So yeah, crypto bad. Right on.

 

[ultimatebob]

It's going to look really bad for crypto when Russia gets caught using it to get around sanctions.

The folks trying to crack down on it might get the excuse they're looking for.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

That is your opinion. Not more not less. The thing is making a decentralized and secure system is extremely hard and requires new computer science discoveries. Even more difficult is making it scale. Hence the inventions of Layer 2 and different strategies to make these secure and scalable. Research zkrollups and within that zksnark. Loopring layer 2 of ethereum actually gets faster and cheaper with more transactions! (because transactions are batched and committed to main chain. more transactions means a batch is full quicker and there are more transactions in them making each one cheaper).

We also have much more user friendly wallets and exchanges as well. You can now stake, loan or be part of liquidity pools which was not possible before. Just because you say no progress happened, because you might not know better, it doesn't make it true in any way.

And back to usefulness. I'm pretty sure many Russians and Ukrainians would be very glad if they had out their savings into crypto. The first because their banks have limited withdrawls to $20 per day. lol and who knows for how long that will remain possible. The later obviously to take their savings with them across the border.

Zrollups and zksnark and zbuzzwords are fine and dandy, I look forward to adding them to the pile of failed magic bullets like segwit, big blocks and lightning network.

Sure, so you can now loan crypto for crypto in collateralized loans? So, it's still only useful for speculation, now with yet more risk of getting liquidated.

Personally I think most Ukrainians would've preferred their money in euros that can actually be used to buy stuff in neighboring countries or internationally. I guarantee you the crypto donations Ukraine gets are gonna be changed into actual money to buy food, supplies and ammo, they're not gonna hodl them. This is a really weird quirk and I'm not convinced it's any more efficient than regular donations once you realize they gotta turn the internet money into actual cash somehow. There's not enough anti-tank weapons on the darknet.
As far as Russia, well, we're back to 'crypto's useful for dodging international sanctions.' If you wanna die on that hill, be my guest.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

It's going to look really bad for crypto when Russia gets caught using it to get around sanctions.

The folks trying to crack down on it might get the excuse they're looking for.

Crypto is still heavily dependent on fiat on-ramps and off-ramps and centralized exchanges that lie in the western world. It's going to be difficult for them to use it anywhere if SWIFT kicks in full gear. And China nor India are friendly to it either, so good luck routing billions through Afghanistan or wherever might have access, and without being obvious that you're some oligarch trying to evade sanctions (which there are penalties for).

Edit: the crypto markets also don't have the liquidity so support billions flowing in rapidly (note not to be confused with trade-volume). So even if they were to do that, it's going to result in a transfer of wealth to existing crypto holders (i.e. mostly westerners). Plus likely blacklist crypto addresses, and lead to eventual convictions of trying to evade sanctions thus making the rest of their lives very difficult (at least relatively speaking to where they were from a week ago). They may be able to hide some wealth in the crypto markets, but I think it's a much smaller fraction than any of you believe they may be able to.

Lastly, you focus on "Russia", yet I hope the many of those that reside within Russia that have nothing to do this, nor want this to happen, have some savings in Bitcoin or other cryptos because their currency is about to open up 50% down from Friday, which was already at its lowest point ever. Crypto is the only thing that may save the average person there (if they already had it, and depending on where this goes). And although it may become in accessible in the short-term, if it's available to you beyond your country's borders, you've got options. You just need to get out.

 

[ultimatebob]

Just made a $xxxx donation of Ethereum directly to Ukraine. Fees: $3. Time it took: Maybe 30 seconds to confirm. Done.

As much as I support donations and charities - I'm just happy I was able to give money to the cause and nearly instantly while losing nothing due to the overhead of those traditional charities (and more so, the legacy finance systems those charities are still connected to).

So yeah, crypto bad. Right on.

Ethereum fees seem to be down in general right now. $3 for regular transactions, $9 for ERC-20 tokens. That can change quickly, though.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Honestly? You're asking for a lot of details that none of us will know

Are you seeing my point yet?

Zrollups and zksnark and zbuzzwords are fine and dandy, I look forward to adding them to the pile of failed magic bullets like segwit, big blocks and lightning network.

Polygon already works.

Let me repeat that for effect:

Polygon already works.

And by "works" I mean, it isn't a bad hack like LN with huge up-front fees to open channels that you have to keep open for the network to be useful.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Are you seeing my point yet?

Sort of? I agree it's not immediately clear, but I think you're clinging onto it too hard.

That being said, five minutes of googling gives hints their payment provider was waiting for zero confirmations for at least some time.

 

[JEDI]

A financial system hardly anyone understands propped up by legions of new investors and not subject to much regulation.
What can go wrong?

Ask Albania in the 1990s

 

[beginner99]

Zrollups and zksnark and zbuzzwords are fine and dandy, I look forward to adding them to the pile of failed magic bullets like segwit, big blocks and lightning network.

They are not. They are up and running. Search for loopring as example. However there is no guarantee this will "win" and be the future but it is live and you can use it right now. It is not vaporware.

Personally I think most Ukrainians would've preferred their money in euros that can actually be used to buy stuff in neighboring countries or internationally. I guarantee you the crypto donations Ukraine gets are gonna be changed into actual money to buy food, supplies and ammo, they're not gonna hodl them. This is a really weird quirk and I'm not convinced it's any more efficient than regular donations once you realize they gotta turn the internet money into actual cash somehow. There's not enough anti-tank weapons on the darknet.

You have to differentiate use-case. My point was about being able to take your money with you outside the country or keeping it save. Not about buying food with it. Cash takes too much space and is hence too hard to hide when fleeing the country. A paper with a seed phrase can be much easier hidden.

But even better and that is back to above, the loopring wallet has so called social recovery. You can appoint 2 of friends/relatives as guardians to your wallet. Then you can completely delete the app and no keys needed. With their help you can then restore it. Of course said friends/relatives should live outside Ukraine which of course not everyone can benefit from. But that would make it 100% fool proof to take your savings with you.
Then when you are safe you can convert it back to cash.

As far as Russia, well, we're back to 'crypto's useful for dodging international sanctions.' If you wanna die on that hill, be my guest.

That was already answered.To make it work there would be a need for an entirely crypto-based economy so that on/off ramp can be completely avoided. And oligarchs are too rich. Prices would skyrocket if they started buying crypto en masse. we would notice.

In this regard, this is the issue with the swift sanctions and supposedly it is already happening that a new/alternative system is being developed based in China. "forbidding stuff" will only accelerate alternative solutions. And literally in the energy sector as this crisis will do more in terms of adapting alternative energy in Europe than any climate conference ever did. Russia turning of their gas will just make it irrelevant more quickly.

 

[MrSquished]

I do not see any advantage to Ukraine getting a crypto donation over a dollar or Euro donation. None. Zilch. Zero. In fact they would just have to convert the crypto to Euros or Dollars to use. There is no inherent value to it being crypto.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I do not see any advantage to Ukraine getting a crypto donation over a dollar or Euro donation. None. Zilch. Zero. In fact they would just have to convert the crypto to Euros or Dollars to use. There is no inherent value to it being crypto.

Other than, have you ever sent money internationally? Using the banking system, all the middle-men are going to want to take their cut. Crypto is peer-to-peer, and costs pennies to send world-wide (speaking of Bitcoin).

I'm sure that Ukraine can find some market selling arms or food, that accepts bitcoin.

 

[MrSquished]

Other than, have you ever sent money internationally? Using the banking system, all the middle-men are going to want to take their cut. Crypto is peer-to-peer, and costs pennies to send world-wide (speaking of Bitcoin).

I'm sure that Ukraine can find some market selling arms or food, that accepts bitcoin.

Sure. If you want to send it to one specific Ukrainian say. It's not that good when you want to donate to a cause.

You need to send money to organizations that are going to get it to people, and that is much better with actual currency.

 

[Torn Mind]

Hmm, if the Russians are cut off from SWIFT, could they use crypto as workaround?

 

[beginner99]

Other than, have you ever sent money internationally? Using the banking system, all the middle-men are going to want to take their cut. Crypto is peer-to-peer, and costs pennies to send world-wide (speaking of Bitcoin).

I'm sure that Ukraine can find some market selling arms or food, that accepts bitcoin.

I wanted to say that with SEPA payment is easy and free in your average part but Ukraine doesn't seem to be part of SEPA so yeah then your fees will likley be higher than even using Ethereum (which I would not for money transfer).

Hmm, if the Russians are cut off from SWIFT, could they use crypto as workaround?

See above. Some individuals and business maybe IF they already bought crypto before the SWIFT ban. Right now I don't think they can actually on-ramp easily anymore. And for the Oligarchs? No. Imagine billions just following in. We would immediately know.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Sort of? I agree it's not immediately clear, but I think you're clinging onto it too hard.

I wasn't the one that posted the interview. You think I'm clinging onto something too hard? All I said was "those statements are vague", to point out that you can't really draw any meaningful conclusions from the interview. GabeN is notorious for babbling or saying outright untrue things in interviews and in public appearances. Still waiting for that TF2 bot fix, Lord GabeN.

Maybe you should consider who posted the interview in the first place, as if to make some salient point about blockchain in general.

That being said, five minutes of googling gives hints their payment provider was waiting for zero confirmations for at least some time.

Bitcoin of that era did suffer from a lot of stuck transactions due to low/no fees being paid to initiate; that being said, the payment provider should never credit anyone's account for such payments until they are completed. Also txns stuck for longer than 24 hours can simply be cancelled. That really doesn't constitute fraud unless the provider was stupid enough to credit unconfirmed transactions.

 

[drnickriviera]

Prices would skyrocket if they started buying crypto en masse. we would notice.

I guess so
Ruble-Denominated Bitcoin Volume Surges as Russia-Ukraine Conflict Endures

 

[BFG10K]

I guess so
Ruble-Denominated Bitcoin Volume Surges as Russia-Ukraine Conflict Endures

Yep, it's back to this again. Despite the utopia parroted by cryptobros, in practice crypto is just an enabler for criminals and authoritarian regimes. That's the part where "neither party trusts each other" comes into play.

Also Ukraine's request to major exchanges to block Russians was denied https://www.zdnet.com/finance/blockchain/ukraine-asks-cryptocurrency-firms-to-block-russian-users/

I'm not saying I agree / disagree with the decision, just pointing out that the "decentralized" delusion actually comes back to a handful of exchanges calling the shots, exchanges run by more anonymous internet cryptobros.

The whole system is nothing more than a collective masturbation. They all touch each others' DoggieCamelDonkeyKittieMax to make themselves feel good about "fighting the power (tm)" while collapsing local power grids and causing worldwide component shortages.