The anti-crypto thread

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biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,683
5,416
136
It looks nice, but it doesn't really do anything for you.
So, culture and art is not that important if you want to describe human society?

If someone really tries to argue that gold and bitcoin is the same when we look at human history, culture, economy, and applicable value, then I have some dogecoins I would like to trade for gold.
 
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biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,683
5,416
136
Thanks for biting. Use is purely subjective That is the point. Just because you think it has no use doesn't mean it is useless. And just because I think jewelry is a waste of money doesn't mean everybody thinks that.

I did link a video that tells you a lot why I support crypto. I'm pro freedom. freedom to be your own bank, freedom from the gripes of the banking system and governments. Of course freedom has it's price and it's not for everyone. But having the choice is important.

Also you can buy drugs with it for a more mundane usability scenario that however falls in the above part as well. Drugs should be legal. Everyone is about "my body my decision" when it comes to abortions. Same for drugs. "my body my decision" what I put in it and not the governments. So yeah the main utility is freedom and while we might not need it that much yet, just look at the trucker strike in Canada were they started to freeze funds of people incl. non-anonymous crypto. That is why we need monero, decentralized exchanges and atomic swaps. Freedom.



How is the dollar any different to that? Dollar isn't backed by gold since decades.

When things go real bad, people will stop accepting your dollars because they don't have any underlying worth in terms of survival.
I understand you want freedom, but I don't understand how your version of freedom can turn into anything but Anarchy, where those with the biggest sticks (or mining farms) will control your freedom.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,337
5,456
136
How is the dollar any different to that? Dollar isn't backed by gold since decades.

When things go real bad, people will stop accepting your dollars because they don't have any underlying worth in terms of survival.

Another typical BS ponzi-Coin argument. Ponzi-Coins are nothing like the US Dollar.

The US Dollar is backed by the US government and the production capability of the USA. The US dollar is so strong, that other countries hold extensive US dollar reserves to help back their own currency.

Society would have to completely collapse for the US dollar to have no worth. We are talking extinction level event here. At which point it won't matter what they are worth because there won't be anything to buy.

OTOH, nothing is holding Bitcoin up, except the latest greater fool. It could collapse to zero, next week, and nothing would stop it.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
591
592
136
And I know this use case doesn't apply to most here: but the general population only controls a small fraction of the wealth in existence. Actually, I take that back. Crypto offers a use case that was previously not economically friendly for most people. Because prior to crypto, there wasn't really a means of "wealth preservation" due to liquidity issues and premium overheads.
Your idea of wealth preservation is yeeting money into a hugely speculative asset? That's an even worse idea than NFTs.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,227
28,933
136
How is the dollar any different to that? Dollar isn't backed by gold since decades.

When things go real bad, people will stop accepting your dollars because they don't have any underlying worth in terms of survival.
Dollars are backed by the U.S. government's prerogative of demanding payment of taxes in dollars.
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
Your idea of wealth preservation is yeeting money into a hugely speculative asset? That's an even worse idea than NFTs.

Once again:

1. Look up the definition of wealth preservation, and then understand it applies to more than just tracking inflation.
2. USDC exists and has for years if you're bent on crypto going up too quickly over the years.

And the NFT itself is a great tool, that whether you like or not, will drive up the demand of crypto even more over the decade as they start to become used and linked to the physical world. Digital jpegs were a stupid use case but they proved the NFT works. It doesn't matter how much any of you disagree or think this is a bad idea because you assume car and home titles are first on the list to be tokenized, but this is one of the directions that things are heading with NFTs. Especially since the issuers can collect royalties on every exchange.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,554
10,171
126
It doesn't matter how much any of you disagree or think this is a bad idea because you assume car and home titles are first on the list to be tokenized, but this is one of the directions that things are heading with NFTs.
In theory, that's great. But imagine that dystopian future, where if you get browser malware, and someone comes in and hacks your metamask from the future, now you lose your home, your car, EVERYTHING!?? ... because in the future, "everything is tokenized", and yet, ordinary people, are required to "be their own bank" too.

(I would hope that multi-sig would become standard for such item, and that owner ship transfer of a house or car title, would require a crpto sig from a real live-person Notary, as well as a representitive from any bank involved with them. As well as the owner.)
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
In theory, that's great. But imagine that dystopian future, where if you get browser malware, and someone comes in and hacks your metamask from the future, now you lose your home, your car, EVERYTHING!?? ... because in the future, "everything is tokenized", and yet, ordinary people, are required to "be their own bank" too.

It's the same exact risk as already holding Bitcoin and other cryptos. Nothing changes there. NFTs aren't inherently more risky. There will always be the risk of your Metamask getting hacked. So don't use Metamask. Use a hardware wallet that you can route through Metamask instead.

People are also looking into how you can insure and/or personally register your NFTs as well. But stuff like that may come at the cost of privacy. Additionally, cars and homes are near zero exchange volume items and thus don't really have a need to be ever be tokenized. They're a poor example of what could benefit from tokenization for that among other reasons. Vintage pristine cars on the other hand that you don't necessarily want to physically move around... may have a case. Because those are more like a collectibles that can be expected to appreciate in value. And stuff like that gets fractionalized? You've now got new investment asset classes.

Masterworks already does this with artwork. But Ethereum and other blockchains unlock the boundaries of where the ownership can go, and how it can be exchanged, and that it can be verified by all parties, thanks to the NFT. It doesn't have to be done on a blockchain, but it will be because the royalties gold mine is too opportunistic.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,554
10,171
126
It's the same exact risk as already holding Bitcoin and other cryptos. Nothing changes there. NFTs aren't inherently more risky.
Wise people say to never put into crypto, what you can't stand to lose.

Are you saying, that people will start "betting" their homes and cars? And depend on the security of their web browser? You're crazy.
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
Wise people say to never put into crypto, what you can't stand to lose.

Are you saying, that people will start "betting" their homes and cars? And depend on the security of their web browser? You're crazy.

I'm not saying that. All I said is, any time physical NFTs are brought up: people like to use cars and homes knowing they are a poor example. Kind of like people bring up cars in every gun discussion.

It's the same exact risk as already holding Bitcoin and other cryptos. Nothing changes there. NFTs aren't inherently more risky. There will always be the risk of your Metamask getting hacked. So don't use Metamask. Use a hardware wallet that you can route through Metamask instead.

People are also looking into how you can insure and/or personally register your NFTs as well. But stuff like that may come at the cost of privacy. Additionally, cars and homes are near zero exchange volume items and thus don't really have a need to be ever be tokenized. They're a poor example of what could benefit from tokenization for that among other reasons. Vintage pristine cars on the other hand that you don't necessarily want to physically move around... may have a case. Because those are more like a collectibles that can be expected to appreciate in value. And stuff like that gets fractionalized? You've now got new investment asset classes.

Masterworks already does this with artwork. But Ethereum and other blockchains unlock the boundaries of where the ownership can go, and how it can be exchanged, and that it can be verified by all parties, thanks to the NFT. It doesn't have to be done on a blockchain, but it will be because the royalties gold mine is too opportunistic.

Physical collectibles are likely to be the first big "physicals NFT market". I threw vintage cars in that class to poke fun at anyone brining up cars and homes any time "physical NFTs" are mentioned. And I also think it'd be really cool to "invest" in a fraction of one via a NFT.

If the use case is actually profitable for token issuers (and I think it will be), there will be a quick tipping point with physicals collectibles, and then it will become the new norm. The only dystopian part I foresee of this is that if you actually want physical possession of a collectible you may feel some attachment to - it might be very difficult to pull off after this new norm because tokenizers will be after the supply of everything authenticatable. Because what Masterworks did the price of artwork can be speculated to happen for almost any fractionalized collectible asset when you increase that collectible's market outreach by a factor of 10,000 or even more. So a result, then alongside of USDC and other real stablecoins, we'll have our first huge class(es) of "tangible assets" residing on blockchains.

And then alongside of elevated magic crypto money prices, everyone will be complaining that people are spending way too much money on useless fractionalized physical collectibles they can't do anything with (except not all will be fractionalized, and many will be functionally redeemable). But only after I'm predicting this will happen: as they sit here reading this, and will miss the boat again continuing their same anti-crypto arguments in 2028 that they started in 2014. And I'll be there trying to explain the next big use case falling on more deaf/ignorant ears (not you specifically, but people in general). Since I'm just a Crypto Bro. Like that other one over there telling everyone to buy Shiba Butt Coin.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
591
592
136
Once again:
Then what definition are you using? Do you disagree that crypto is a violate speculative asset?

And the NFT itself is a great tool, that whether you like or not, will drive up the demand of crypto even more over the decade as they start to become used and linked to the physical world. Digital jpegs were a stupid use case but they proved the NFT works. It doesn't matter how much any of you disagree or think this is a bad idea because you assume car and home titles are first on the list to be tokenized, but this is one of the directions that things are heading with NFTs. Especially since the issuers can collect royalties on every exchange.
Yeah jpeg NFTs work great if you jam your head firmly in the sand and ignore:
  • That the jpegs they use aren't connected to the nft and are vulnerable to link rot
  • That the promised-royalties can be easily bypassed (and, as all smart contracts, are an eternal bug bounty program)
  • That NFTs are responsible for so much art theft that even the dinosaur Deviantart added a tool to alert artists when their art is minted as an NFT without their consent
  • That even NFTs themselves get pirated by minting entire collections to another chain
  • That they share the same user-friendliness of crypto and are utterly unrecoverable if anything goes wrong ("i been hacked all my apes gone")
I'm sure attaching them to the real world will go swimmingly and won't just be another avenue for hucksters and outright conmen.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,252
10,840
136
How is the dollar any different to that? Dollar isn't backed by gold since decades.

When things go real bad, people will stop accepting your dollars because they don't have any underlying worth in terms of survival.
I can pay my taxes in dollars. The dollar is backed by the largest military in the world. I don't have to convert dollars into different currency to be useful in the real world.
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
Yeah jpeg NFTs work great if you jam your head firmly in the sand and ignore:
  • That the jpegs they use aren't connected to the nft and are vulnerable to link rot
  • That the promised-royalties can be easily bypassed (and, as all smart contracts, are an eternal bug bounty program)
  • That NFTs are responsible for so much art theft that even the dinosaur Deviantart added a tool to alert artists when their art is minted as an NFT without their consent
  • That even NFTs themselves get pirated by minting entire collections to another chain
  • That they share the same user-friendliness of crypto and are utterly unrecoverable if anything goes wrong ("i been hacked all my apes gone")
I'm sure attaching them to the real world will go swimmingly and won't just be another avenue for hucksters and outright conmen.

We're not talking about "jpeg NFTs" anymore, as if the two are inherently linked. You can't copy and paste a physical item that someone has issued ownership for. So good luck pirating that. Physical NFTs will likely have some kind of jpeg associated with them just to look flashy and aesthetically pleasing to look at - but that's not what they will derive a bulk of their value from.

Your only point is the last one. And if someone is willing to hold any crypto, there's no reason they shouldn't be willing to hold an NFT either.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
591
592
136
We're not talking about "jpeg NFTs" anymore, as if the two are inherently linked. You can't copy and paste a physical item that someone has issued ownership for. So good luck pirating that. Physical NFTs will likely have some kind of jpeg associated with them just to look flashy and aesthetically pleasing to look at - but that's not what they will derive a bulk of their value from.

Your only point is the last one. And if someone is willing to hold any crypto, there's no reason they shouldn't be willing to hold an NFT either.
Okay so all existing NFTs suck, but the next ones will be awesome, trust me guys!
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,252
10,840
136
We're not talking about "jpeg NFTs" anymore, as if the two are inherently linked. You can't copy and paste a physical item that someone has issued ownership for. So good luck pirating that. Physical NFTs will likely have some kind of jpeg associated with them just to look flashy and aesthetically pleasing to look at - but that's not what they will derive a bulk of their value from.

Your only point is the last one. And if someone is willing to hold any crypto, there's no reason they shouldn't be willing to hold an NFT either.
So basically what you are saying is 1,000 will all buy a chunk of a classic car. A classic car they can't do anything with, can't show off to their friends, can't drive, can't take to car shows. But they will have to pay continuous fees to store and maintain the asset. And if the company storing does a poor job or ups their rates to the moon, they'll have to 999 other anonymous people to agree to move that asset and start paying someone else a huge storage fee.

Sounds a lot like a pyramid scheme to me.
 
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njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
So basically what you are saying is 1,000 will all buy a chunk of a classic car. A classic car they can't do anything with, can't show off to their friends, can't drive, can't take to car shows. But they will have to pay continuous fees to store and maintain the asset. And if the company storing does a poor job or ups their rates to the moon, they'll have to 999 other anonymous people to agree to move that asset and start paying someone else a huge storage fee.

Sounds a lot like a pyramid scheme to me.

Masterworks has already been successful. Yes? So replace rare artwork with a classic car. Or any other collectible. This is not rocket science here. Do you think the owners of the fractions care they can't show it off their fractions in person?

Making physical collectibles more accessible to purchase (or invest in if we are talking fractions) thus increasing demand for a finite supply item is not a pyramid scheme. But since you felt the need to bring it up anyway: I already mentioned there will also be NFTs that are functionally redeemable, 1:1, for lowered valued collectibles. Such NFTs could be described as transferable receipts that are to be redeemed only when wanted. There's a lot of convenience to be had there for that - for many people (actually, most people on this planet) without stable living conditions, safe homes, etc. Still a pyramid scheme?!

It's up to the companies to figure out sustainable business models. Any company that does a poor job like you mentioned, will not last long in the space.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,996
126
But then there is also BTC, ETH, XMR, ADA, ALGO and potentially others with actual use.
What "actual use" might that be, aside from converting back to fiat?

I did link a video that tells you a lot why I support crypto. I'm pro freedom.
Unregulated internet exchanges run by anonymous cryptobros isn't freedom, it's a ponzi scam.

How is the dollar any different to that?
The dollar is backed by the government, banks and insurance. It's also backed by real assets that actually exist like oil, property, gold and buildings.

What's crypto backed by? Tether.
What's tether backed by? Crypto.

Imaginary things..."backing" imaginary things.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,035
11,620
136
You just need the right jewelry.

el oh el

You haven't demonstrated he's wrong, just that you disagree with him.

No, I have. Nano provides a useful (if limited) system for zero-fee remittances. Throughout history, systems for reliably transporting value over long distances - in this case, even internationally - have been costly and only somewhat effective. Even today, international money orders can be costly. Nano potentially solves that. With no fee. Zero sum indeed!

The man seems convinced that blockchain projects are only for gambling, hence his commentary. He's just wrong.

Crypto-Ponzi-Coins are textbook Zero Sum game.

Congratulations! You're falling into the same narrow-minded trap.

So, culture and art is not that important if you want to describe human society?

Culture and art transcend the medium. Gold is just one (relatively ancient) option.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,337
5,456
136
No, I have. Nano provides a useful (if limited) system for zero-fee remittances. Throughout history, systems for reliably transporting value over long distances - in this case, even internationally - have been costly and only somewhat effective. Even today, international money orders can be costly. Nano potentially solves that. With no fee. Zero sum indeed!

The man seems convinced that blockchain projects are only for gambling, hence his commentary. He's just wrong.

I hate to break it to you but we live in a digital age, and there are a great many ways to transfer funds easily. Who uses money orders anymore except old people without a smartphone or computer who aren't exactly a market to use ponzi coins. I haven't used a Money order in 30 years.

His point if you read the article, was that people claiming you need Blockchain for X, don't understand X. You are demonstrating that quite well.

It appears you don't understand fund transfer any better than you understand what a Zero Sum Game is, nor how Ponzi coins are a perfect representation of zero sum game. What you were originally complaining about before you moved the goal posts.

Heck you don't even get that Nano doesn't use blockchain but instead uses Direct Acyclic Graphs. You know because blockchain is too expensive for serious financial transaction levels.

Further proof that people that claim you need blockchain for X, don't understand X, or apparently blockchain.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,176
5,717
136
The US Dollar is backed by the US government and the production capability of the USA. The US dollar is so strong, that other countries hold extensive US dollar reserves to help back their own currency.

Was so strong. The pumping of the stock market led the $ to get so weak that people were starting to look at alternatives as the world's reserve currency... and crypto was one of them. Maybe the rate hikes will end that for the time being.
 
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