The anti-crypto thread

[BFG10K]

Great news, crypto's collapsing across the board: https://www.techpowerup.com/282380/...ions-in-less-than-24-hours-did-the-bubble-pop

Also China's banned crypto, though individuals can still have it: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinese-financial-payment-bodies-barred-122712260.html

The sooner this cancerous parasite is wiped out, the better.

 

[pete6032]

But a currency that people don't use for buying anything....

It has much higher use potential in countries with poor financial infrastructure. In the US if I needed to send a family member $100 I could go to my bank and know with 100% certainty it would be sent to my family member no problem, with a clear paper trail of the transaction. That's much harder to do in a 3rd world country or if the recipient or sender doesn't have a bank account. Anyone can create and maintain a crypto wallet for FREE. You don't need to go to a bank to do it, you don't need an appointment, you don't need an ID. All you need is an internet connection and a piece of paper. Once coins are in your wallet you never have to worry about the bank collapsing or a government seizing your funds.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

It has much higher use potential in countries with poor financial infrastructure. In the US if I needed to send a family member $100 I could go to my bank and know with 100% certainty it would be sent to my family member no problem, with a clear paper trail of the transaction. That's much harder to do in a 3rd world country or if the recipient or sender doesn't have a bank account. Anyone can create and maintain a crypto wallet for FREE. You don't need to go to a bank to do it, you don't need an appointment, you don't need an ID. All you need is an internet connection and a piece of paper. Once coins are in your wallet you never have to worry about the bank collapsing or a government seizing your funds.

Nah. Those areas can be served in other ways. Look up SMS banking in Nigeria for an example.

So, here's the thing: If you lose that piece of paper, your money is irrecoverably gone. Heck, when I bring up that risk here, people always say to buy a hardware wallet, so add that to the list someone in sub-Saharan Africa needs. You also need to convert that crypto into actual money to buy things. And let's be honest, in a lot of those areas you can't guarantee a connection everywhere in the third world, so if there's no wifi and a bad signal wherever you're at, you can't use your crypto at all. And let's not forget how insanely inconvenient crypto is to use.

Crypto's claim that it will 'bank the unbanked' failed years ago.

 

[biostud]

Nah. Those areas can be served in other ways. Look up SMS banking in Nigeria for an example.

So, here's the thing: If you lose that piece of paper, your money is irrecoverably gone. Heck, when I bring up that risk here, people always say to buy a hardware wallet, so add that to the list someone in sub-Saharan Africa needs. You also need to convert that crypto into actual money to buy things. And let's be honest, in a lot of those areas you can't guarantee a connection everywhere in the third world, so if there's no wifi and a bad signal wherever you're at, you can't use your crypto at all. And let's not forget how insanely inconvenient crypto is to use.

Crypto's claim that it will 'bank the unbanked' failed years ago.

Exactly, mobile payment went big in Africa long before Europe and US. They don't need unstable coins.

 

[Charmonium]

The African models seem to be mostly phone based and don't require a bank account. However you're limited in where you can transfer those funds. So if you have relatives in the Phillipines who want to send money home, there aren't any global options - yet. That's what Stellar has been working on for the past 4 or 5 years with scores of partners like IBM, Moneygram, Stripe, even various govts like Australia (but I'd need to check on that last one).. Here's a list of their projects and partners - https://www.lumenauts.com/projects. They're a fork of the Ripple protocol but instead of being centralized, like XRP, Stellar is completely decentralized. That gives it the opportunity for truly global breadth. And if they can attract enough traders to their fiat pair exchanges, they might well succeed in having a robust, fault tolerant system that will let anyone with a phone transfer funds of any denomination to anyone anywhere. XRP might have the big banks behind them but that's going nowhere when the crypto crowd is demanding truly decentralized management.

 

[biostud]

The African models seem to be mostly phone based and don't require a bank account. However you're limited in where you can transfer those funds. So if you have relatives in the Phillipines who want to send money home, there aren't any global options - yet. That's what Stellar has been working on for the past 4 or 5 years with scores of partners like IBM, Moneygram, Stripe, even various govts like Australia (but I'd need to check on that last one).. Here's a list of their projects and partners - https://www.lumenauts.com/projects. They're a fork of the Ripple protocol but instead of being centralized, like XRP, Stellar is completely decentralized. That gives it the opportunity for truly global breadth. And if they can attract enough traders to their fiat pair exchanges, they might well succeed in having a robust, fault tolerant system that will let anyone with a phone transfer funds of any denomination to anyone anywhere. XRP might have the big banks behind them but that's going nowhere when the crypto crowd is demanding truly decentralized management.

That is all fine and dandy, but my guess is that 99% of your purchases will be local, and then occasionally you might need to transfer money abroad. Stable exchange rates are the key for a succes, if you want to use it as a payment system. If the technology cannot deliver that, then it will never be anything but a technological halo/gambling product, or it will be used for something else. Blockchain technology has a lot of potential, but if you want people to use it for their everyday payments it needs to have stable exchange rates.

 

[Charmonium]

That is all fine and dandy, but my guess is that 99% of your purchases will be local, and then occasionally you might need to transfer money abroad. Stable exchange rates are the key for a succes, if you want to use it as a payment system. If the technology cannot deliver that, then it will never be anything but a technological halo/gambling product, or it will be used for something else. Blockchain technology has a lot of potential, but if you want people to use it for their everyday payments it needs to have stable exchange rates.

That is a very astute and accurate observation. The current problem with crossboard transfers is precisely that. And that is precisely what some cryptos have been designed, from the ground up, to deal with. I have a lot of faith in Stellar and XLM because they have been working relentlessly on these issues. And as they gain wider use and acceptance, we should be left with a system where the average user will never need to know what an XLM is. They will hook into a system entry point and fork over their hard earned fiat currency. It will automatically be converted to XLM and that in turn will be seamlessly converted into the destination fiat/

 

[biostud]

That is a very astute and accurate observation. The current problem with crossboard transfers is precisely that. And that is precisely what some cryptos have been designed, from the ground up, to deal with. I have a lot of faith in Stellar and XLM because they have been working relentlessly on these issues. And as they gain wider use and acceptance, we should be left with a system where the average user will never need to know what an XLM is. They will hook into a system entry point and fork over their hard earned fiat currency. It will automatically be converted to XLM and that in turn will be seamlessly converted into the destination fiat/

If the crypto currency is stable, then it won't be mined and used for speculative investments as these two things are mutually exclusive. I don't think anybody has anything against a stable non-mining cryptocurrency, but until we see one with wide acceptance it is these gambling/energy wasting cryptos that "the craze" is all about. :/

 

[BFG10K]

And it continues to free-fall with the Ukrainian invasion:

Bitcoin tanks 12% after Moscow strike on Ukraine; altcoins bleed

The crypto behemoth slipped below $34,500 levels from $39,122 earlier. However, it recovered back to $34,732 by 13.00 hours IST, the data from coinmarketcap suggested. The total volumes zoomed over 41 per cent as Bitcoin worth $32.5 billion exchanged hands in the last 24 hours, the data suggested.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Yep, I can definitely see the "stability" and "hedge against inflation" Cryptobros told us about. Ironically the only fiat falling just as badly is the Russian ruble.

Guys, guys, it's totally fine, all those Ukrainians will just cross the border with their paper wallets and become millionaires in no time!

 

[ultimatebob]

If you have balls of steel, today might actually be a good time to buy crypto while everyone else is panicking. You might be able to flip it for a quick profit.

Personally, I'd rather buy tech stocks or some other asset that's actually backed by quarterly profits.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

I hope crypto crashes and burns along with NVidia.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I don't think anybody has anything against a stable non-mining cryptocurrency

They do, witness two of the three posts after yours. Regardless look up DAI. You'll be shocked to know that actual stablecoins exist. And DAI's collateral model is pretty solid. No scammy tricks like with USDT.

And it continues to free-fall with the Ukrainian invasion:

Why aren't you shorting BTC?

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Why aren't you shorting BTC?

Because trying to short a market as irrational (if not outright manipulated) as BTC is stupid. Just look at a price chart, massive swings in both directions.

 

[beginner99]

So people are buying into something that has no actual usefulness making it 100% gambling disguised as investment.

Just because you do not see the current usefulness and lack the vision to see future usefulness doesn't mean it's gambling. It's like venture capital investing in startups. high risk, high reward. With the difference you as Average Joe can be part of it with just $100 or $1000 bucks. No need to have millions of play money.

The most obvious point of it being an investment (= raise in value vs the dollar) is due to a limited availability. Most obvious in Bitcoin or other clearly limited crypto / tokens. So if adoption gets higher the value of each coin rises. Simple. Your betting on adoption and yes there is absolutely the risk it will not get adopted and for sure not all coins. So choose wisely and diversify.

How is it useful now?

- You can stake/delegate your coins and earn interest. much more than on any bank
- Interest is highest for stable coins. Can easily get 10% on stable coins (of course stable coin is tied to the dollar and with 7-8% inflation it is not that much anymore but you get rid of the volatility of normal crypto)

Stable coin should be a no-brainer. it's better in any way than on a single back account. If you like more risk, stake or otherwise invest your other crypto.

Usefulness will come later. Just wait an see in 2022 when gamestop will make their big announcement.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Just because you do not see the current usefulness and lack the vision to see future usefulness doesn't mean it's gambling. It's like venture capital investing in startups. high risk, high reward. With the difference you as Average Joe can be part of it with just $100 or $1000 bucks. No need to have millions of play money.

The most obvious point of it being an investment (= raise in value vs the dollar) is due to a limited availability. Most obvious in Bitcoin or other clearly limited crypto / tokens. So if adoption gets higher the value of each coin rises. Simple. Your betting on adoption and yes there is absolutely the risk it will not get adopted and for sure not all coins. So choose wisely and diversify.

How is it useful now?

- You can stake/delegate your coins and earn interest. much more than on any bank
- Interest is highest for stable coins. Can easily get 10% on stable coins (of course stable coin is tied to the dollar and with 7-8% inflation it is not that much anymore but you get rid of the volatility of normal crypto)

Stable coin should be a no-brainer. it's better in any way than on a single back account. If you like more risk, stake or otherwise invest your other crypto.

No offense, but that's just a long way of saying 'yeah it's useless, but you can speculate with it.'

Usefulness will come later. Just wait an see in 2022 when gamestop will make their big announcement.

If the last thirteen years weren't long enough for the failed tech to be useful, why would the next thirteen be any different?

 

[legcramp]

Just because you do not see the current usefulness and lack the vision to see future usefulness doesn't mean it's gambling. It's like venture capital investing in startups. high risk, high reward. With the difference you as Average Joe can be part of it with just $100 or $1000 bucks. No need to have millions of play money.

The most obvious point of it being an investment (= raise in value vs the dollar) is due to a limited availability. Most obvious in Bitcoin or other clearly limited crypto / tokens. So if adoption gets higher the value of each coin rises. Simple. Your betting on adoption and yes there is absolutely the risk it will not get adopted and for sure not all coins. So choose wisely and diversify.

How is it useful now?

- You can stake/delegate your coins and earn interest. much more than on any bank
- Interest is highest for stable coins. Can easily get 10% on stable coins (of course stable coin is tied to the dollar and with 7-8% inflation it is not that much anymore but you get rid of the volatility of normal crypto)

Stable coin should be a no-brainer. it's better in any way than on a single back account. If you like more risk, stake or otherwise invest your other crypto.

Usefulness will come later. Just wait an see in 2022 when gamestop will make their big announcement.

Any recommendations of where to stake stable coins?

 

[BFG10K]

What happens when a whole country switches to bitcoin?

El Salvador is finding out how little safety net there is if things go wrong — and oh, they’re going wrong.

www.protocol.com

Guys, guys, it's totally fine. El Salvadorians just need to pop over the border to Honduras or Guatemala with their paper wallets, and they'll automatically gain the benefit of crypto's "resists political instability" benefit.

 

[MrSquished]

Bitcoin. What a great currency.

https://www.pcgamer.com/50-of-transactions-were-fraudulent-when-steam-accepted-bitcoin-for-payments-says-gabe-newell/

 

[DrMrLordX]

Because trying to short a market as irrational (if not outright manipulated) as BTC is stupid. Just look at a price chart, massive swings in both directions.

That would be a reason to not short BTC, but that wouldn't necessarily be his reason . . .

El Salvadorians just need to pop over the border to Honduras or Guatemala with their paper wallets, and they'll automatically gain the benefit of crypto's "resists political instability" benefit.

Nobody ever claimed that the fungibility of cryptocurrency would protect one from wild market swings.

Bitcoin. What a great currency.

How were they fraudulent? That doesn't make much sense.

 

[MrSquished]

That would be a reason to not short BTC, but that wouldn't necessarily be his reason . . .



Nobody ever claimed that the fungibility of cryptocurrency would protect one from wild market swings.



How were they fraudulent? That doesn't make much sense.

Are you saying Gabe Newell is lying or doesn't know what is going on with his business?

 

[DisarmedDespot]

How were they fraudulent? That doesn't make much sense.

Off the top of my head, using stolen crypto to buy a bunch of keys (preferably in another region where it's cheaper) to re-sell and launder the money. Plentiful ways to perform fraud even with immutable transactions. It might make it easier, even, since the wronged party has no way to reverse it.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Are you saying Gabe Newell is lying or doesn't know what is going on with his business?

I'm saying he's providing no details at all.

Can you explain how ANY transaction on Steam would be fraudulent?

Off the top of my head, using stolen crypto to buy a bunch of keys (preferably in another region where it's cheaper) to re-sell and launder the money. Plentiful ways to perform fraud even with immutable transactions. It might make it easier, even, since the wronged party has no way to reverse it.

That is possible! But he isn't saying, and you can already do that with state-backed currency. It's already common to find people buying global keys for cheap, which is probably why you find cheap Steam keys on <insertkeysitehere>. Whether or not that is done as a part of a money laundering operation is another matter altogether.

 

[MrSquished]

I'm saying he's providing no details at all.

Can you explain how ANY transaction on Steam would be fraudulent?



That is possible! But he isn't saying, and you can already do that with state-backed currency. It's already common to find people buying global keys for cheap, which is probably why you find cheap Steam keys on . Whether or not that is done as a part of a money laundering operation is another matter altogether.

His own words (he also mentioned the volatility, since most of us know Bitcoin is a speculative investment tool, not a currency, except Bitcoin cultists)


"Another thing was that the vast majority of those transactions, for whatever reason, were fraudulent, where people were repudiating transactions or using illegal sources of funds and things like that.

And that's just out of control, right? You want that number, realistically, in a couple of percent, not half of all transactions turning out to be fraudulent transactions.

Similarly, with the actors that are currently in this NFT space, they're just not people you really are wanting to be doing business with.

That doesn't say anything about the underlying technology, it's just a reflection of the people right now who are viewing it as an opportunity to rip customers off, or engage in money laundering, or other things like that."

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/8477...ypto-games-were-removed-from-steam/index.html


The fact is most of the people that use Bitcoin for currency are shady. It's not a currency for legitimate consumers or businesses. That's a fact.

 

[BFG10K]

Can you explain how ANY transaction on Steam would be fraudulent?

For real? Like, are you really asking because you don't know the answer?

But he isn't saying, and you can already do that with state-backed currency.

Where did he say 50% of all fiat transactions on Steam were fraudulent?

On the one hand we have an anonymous cryptobro that doesn't appear to understand the definition of fraud and tells us fiat is "just as bad".
The other, someone who used crypto transactions in a $multi-billion business, the largest gaming platform in the world.

Hmmm, who to believe...decisions, decisions.

Looks like the Southern District of California has no trouble understanding what crypto fraud is:

Founder of Fraudulent Cryptocurrency Charged in $2 Billion BitConnect Ponzi Scheme

www.justice.gov

 

[biostud]

No offense, but that's just a long way of saying 'yeah it's useless, but you can speculate with it.'


If the last thirteen years weren't long enough for the failed tech to be useful, why would the next thirteen be any different?

Exactly
Investment in startup exploring block chain technology = investment
Investment in companies/technology that has the goal of a stable block chain payment method = investment.
Investment in the current popular crypto valuta = gambling/pyramid scheme.

 

[DrMrLordX]

For real? Like, are you really asking because you don't know the answer?

Yes? How do you defraud Steam? Either the payment method clears and Valve gets the money or they don't.

Where did he say 50% of all fiat transactions on Steam were fraudulent?

Nobody said that. What I'm saying is: you can buy a global Steam key (usually at a lower price) from a foreign Steam store and then push it through a key website for USD or EUR and make a profit doing so. Period.

On the one hand we have an anonymous cryptobro that doesn't appear to understand the definition of fraud and tells us fiat is "just as bad".
The other, someone who used crypto transactions in a $multi-billion business, the largest gaming platform in the world.

Wow, appeal to authority and ad hominem all in one shot. Good job.

"Another thing was that the vast majority of those transactions, for whatever reason, were fraudulent, where people were repudiating transactions or using illegal sources of funds and things like that.

Okay that's where I'm trying to ask question and look for some details. Repudiating transactions? What does that even mean in the context of a Bitcoin transfer?

And how would Valve make the determination that a funding source was illegal?