The anti-crypto thread

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Jon-T

Senior member
Jun 5, 2011
496
293
136
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Nov 17, 2019
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Not sure if this is good, bad, indifferent or completely irrelevant ....


Bankman-Fried's criminal case assigned to judge in Trump, Prince Andrew cases

Reuters|2 hours ago
Fried's criminal case over the collapse of his FTX cryptocurrency exchange has been reassigned to a judge recently known for handling defamation lawsuits against former U.S. President Donald Trump and a sexual abuse lawsuit against Britain's Prince Andrew.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,736
126
Not sure if this is good, bad, indifferent or completely irrelevant ....


Bankman-Fried's criminal case assigned to judge in Trump, Prince Andrew cases

Reuters|2 hours ago
Fried's criminal case over the collapse of his FTX cryptocurrency exchange has been reassigned to a judge recently known for handling defamation lawsuits against former U.S. President Donald Trump and a sexual abuse lawsuit against Britain's Prince Andrew.
did the judge go easy on those 2?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,566
10,181
126
What's sad about all of this, massive frauds, rug-pulls, scams, exchanges becoming insolvent through "bad practices" (read, in most cases, criminal, sometimes the founder "disappears" with all of the money.)

It's a pretty bad look for the retail investor. Heck, cryptos originally weren't even supposed to be "investments", just a better way of making transactions for the common man. Kind of like when cell phones were ushered in, and suddenly, we got unlimited long distance or local, it didn't matter. No longer had to pay Ma Bell $0.10-$0.15 / min to talk to your buddy in the next town over. Or like the internet, being able to communicate with anyone all over the world without a per-connection fee was a small miracle.

Crypto, is basically like "the internet for money".

And, like most decentralized and democratized technologies, the best of these cryptos were "minable". Meaning, the common man donated their compute resources to the blockchain over the internet, and were rewarded with pieces of the currency as payment.

It (was) a fantastic way for people with spare computer power to make a few bucks, and keep the network essentially free and open. Bitcoin still upholds these ideals even today.

So crypto isn't "all bad". That's like saying, "p0rn ruined the internet, might as well get rid of the internet".

Eventually, all of the money-changers NFT salesmen will be driven from the Bitcoin temple grounds.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,237
11,175
136
What's sad about all of this, massive frauds, rug-pulls, scams, exchanges becoming insolvent through "bad practices" (read, in most cases, criminal, sometimes the founder "disappears" with all of the money.)

It's a pretty bad look for the retail investor. Heck, cryptos originally weren't even supposed to be "investments", just a better way of making transactions for the common man. Kind of like when cell phones were ushered in, and suddenly, we got unlimited long distance or local, it didn't matter. No longer had to pay Ma Bell $0.10-$0.15 / min to talk to your buddy in the next town over. Or like the internet, being able to communicate with anyone all over the world without a per-connection fee was a small miracle.

Crypto, is basically like "the internet for money".

And, like most decentralized and democratized technologies, the best of these cryptos were "minable". Meaning, the common man donated their compute resources to the blockchain over the internet, and were rewarded with pieces of the currency as payment.

It (was) a fantastic way for people with spare computer power to make a few bucks, and keep the network essentially free and open. Bitcoin still upholds these ideals even today.

So crypto isn't "all bad". That's like saying, "p0rn ruined the internet, might as well get rid of the internet".

Eventually, all of the money-changers NFT salesmen will be driven from the Bitcoin temple grounds.
Yes, crypto is all bad. It doesn't do anything better than existing systems.

The fundamental principles of a finite-resourced system, with increasing difficulty of acquisition, inherently make coins not a currency but a speculative instrument.
If the value of a coin is stable, then why wouldn't I just pay you in USD in the first place with one of many different services already available?

Phone calls became cheap because telephone monopolies were broken up.

"Money on the internet" already exists in the form of bank transfers, PayPal, Venmo, zelle, and any other currency transfer system. Other countires or currencies may have their own systems. Sweden has Swish, which is tied to the swedish banking system

Now, let's look at this from an investment perspective. You go out and buy a top of the line PC. Let's say your costs are $3500.

A 4080 can make you about $0.46/day.
Let's make it 0.50 to make math easy. Over 30 days that's $15 a month.

On the other hand, the power consumption of a 4080 is 290W peak. Let's say the full system load is 400W.
Over the course of a month, at 24/7 operation, that's 400*24*30/1000 kWh or 288 kWh. As I recall, my electricity was about 7c/kWh. Which means that would cost me $20 in electricity.

So mining would be about -$5/month. Or in other words, unprofitable with no ROI. Ever.

It is literally a waste of money and resources. You're burning up your money, and the planet, for nothing.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,347
5,471
136
So crypto isn't "all bad". That's like saying, "p0rn ruined the internet, might as well get rid of the internet".

It's nothing like that. It's more like when a corrupt police department has malfeasance brought to light for the 10th time, and they claim, it's "just a few bad apples".

It's not "just a few bad apples", it's systemic corruption. Same goes for Ponzi coins.

Even without all the exchange corruption and founders literally running away with peoples money.

The basic principle of ALL the Ponzi coins is a big pump and dump. There is massive greed driver where everyone creates (out of nothing) and hypes coins/tokens, since they created them, they basically get them for next to nothing, then if they can pump them enough, they get rich.

Which is why there have been 10,000+ Ponzi coins created.

The reason people keep falling for it is they are gullible and greedy (same reason they fall for all scams). They wan t to get in early on the next bitcoin...
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,997
126

As usual, cryptobro parasites steal from each other then run to government cops paid by fiat to rescue them.

We're repeatedly told fiat is going to collapse and financial regulation is bad, so why don't they ever hire cryptobro-sleuths (tm) and pay them anal-lickin'-camel-coin to recover the funds?

So crypto isn't "all bad". That's like saying, "p0rn ruined the internet, might as well get rid of the internet".
Except porn doesn't destabilize local power grids or cause worldwide component shortages / technology scalping.

Also please show a single example of a porn warehouse illegally tapping into the power grid and stealing electricity.
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,537
4,036
126
What's sad about all of this, massive frauds, rug-pulls, scams, exchanges becoming insolvent through "bad practices" (read, in most cases, criminal, sometimes the founder "disappears" with all of the money.)

It's a pretty bad look for the retail investor. Heck, cryptos originally weren't even supposed to be "investments", just a better way of making transactions for the common man.
There are definite possibilities and potential with block chains. The concepts of guaranteed ownerships (think NFT but for actual money or actual art or actual property) could end a lot of fraud. Instant and cheap money transfers could really help the unbanked and the people sending exceedingly expensive remittances back to their home countries.

But, three flaws crept in. You pointed out one:
(1) These blockchains and cryptos can only work if they are NOT investments. But greed and "get rich quick" thinking took over.

(2) The other main flaw was the libertarian concept of no regulations--and I say this as a more libertarian leaning person than most. There was absolutely no need for the lack of regulations OTHER than to allow non-stop theft of money. Oh, they appeal to emotions about stable pricing without the Fed getting in the way or other methods to get around taxation or whatever floats your boat. See how well that stability concept turned out with crypto going up 10x and down 10x in value repeatedly. But the real reason for no regulations is so that they can con the public out of billions of dollars.

(3) Tied closely to the libertarian ideal of no regulations, there was no trust. No government or other body to back up cypto. So, they created total disasters of proof-of-work and proof-of-stake. You want to know why inflation was bad? Look right at energy and chip shortages as two main culprits. You know, the energy use and chip shortages that skyrocketed with proof-of-work. Yes, crypto is to blame for much of the inflation we felt. Why not rely on valid trust from large entities instead? You know, like how all hundreds of other currencies do just fine.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,566
10,181
126
(3) Tied closely to the libertarian ideal of no regulations, there was no trust. No government or other body to back up cypto. So, they created total disasters of proof-of-work and proof-of-stake. You want to know why inflation was bad? Look right at energy and chip shortages as two main culprits. You know, the energy use and chip shortages that skyrocketed with proof-of-work. Yes, crypto is to blame for much of the inflation we felt. Why not rely on valid trust from large entities instead? You know, like how all hundreds of other currencies do just fine.
This is total BS, BTW. This is not the only crypto cycle, far from it. There were like four before this one. Why didn't each one cause inflation, then? They didn't.

There were some important confounding variables this cycle, which you totally overlooked, like:

1) A world-wide pandemic
2) lockdowns
3) supply-chain shortages, including delivery-chain holdups
4) Gov't money-printing. (They printed something like more money in 3-4 years, than the entirety of the country's history before that, or something similarly crazy, I've read.)

Yet, despite those four factors (and especially #4), ... "blame crypto". Because that's what we do in this thread, and the cheering anti-crypto morons go along with it.
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,537
4,036
126
This is total BS, BTW. This is not the only crypto cycle, far from it. There were like four before this one. Why didn't each one cause inflation, then? They didn't.

There were some important confounding variables this cycle, which you totally overlooked, like:

1) A world-wide pandemic
2) lockdowns
3) supply-chain shortages, including delivery-chain holdups
4) Gov't money-printing. (They printed something like more money in 3-4 years, than the entirety of the country's history before that, or something similarly crazy, I've read.)

Yet, despite those four factors (and especially #4), ... "blame crypto". Because that's what we do in this thread, and the cheering anti-crypto morons go along with it.
I didn't say crypto was the only factors. I specified that it was two of the factors.

We can go into #4 if you want. The monetary supply drastically increased in 2008, 2011, 2013-2014, and 2020. Only one of those years had any significant inflation. Heck, the US M0 monetary supply increase was MORE from 2008 to 2015 than in 2020. But, there was no inflation. You are just making up your own cause-effect for things that are easily shown to not be true in much of history. What actually matters is WHERE money goes--not how much money there is.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,895
3,247
126
Phone calls became cheap because telephone monopolies were broken up.

No it became cheaper because we started flooring more fiber optic cables along the ground + sea bed.
Data became more dense, and more of it was able to cross with the same amount of effort.
In your definition Microsoft should be dirt cheap, but yet, everything across the board is way more expensive including cost of inflation even after they got broken up.

Technology allowed things to become cheap, not the breaking of monopolies.
You have 5G 4G and most places in the US have retired out 3G was it was too expensive to maintain including copper land line wires at home.

"Money on the internet" already exists in the form of bank transfers, PayPal, Venmo, zelle, and any other currency transfer system. Other countires or currencies may have their own systems. Sweden has Swish, which is tied to the swedish banking system

Are you really comparing those to crypto?
Really?

How uninformed in crypto are you to be comparing those to crypto?
In that case, the Credit Card utilized the first type of web transaction over phone modem.
The credit card predates everything you listed, but everything you listed including the credit card has to go though the government via a banking system.
Crypto was to circumvent that process and bypass the banking system entirely with the concept of Proof of Stake, where each transaction was not centralized by spread out amongst everyone on the network.

Now, let's look at this from an investment perspective. You go out and buy a top of the line PC. Let's say your costs are $3500.

This is now, but lets look back in 2019 when that same GPU netted you way more.
Yes now GPU mining is trash, its all because of Eth.
Eth wanted to preserve its whale holders and screwed everyone else over.
This is why i really want Eth to burn and die.
The Whales are to blame for controlling Eth, its like the how the US says we need to preserve our currency... Great lets stop printing more money, and allow the millions of americans to suffer so the rich who have all that capital can profit even more.

Also Satoshi did not intend on bitcoin to ever be a hedgefund 2000 master portfolio piece.
He visioned a decentralized banking system that didn't relay on one source, and instead would have thousands of ledgers spread across its users.
Its human greed that has inflated the BTC and ETH to what its worth today, not the conception of what it was intended for.

So mining would be about -$5/month. Or in other words, unprofitable with no ROI. Ever.
It is literally a waste of money and resources. You're burning up your money, and the planet, for nothing.

*sigh*
I can really feel your hate with crypto, and i understand.
It wrecked us Gamers hardcore on GPU sources.
It wrecked electricity prices thoughout countries.
People who invested in it lost there entire portfolio's via Celsius + Voyage + FTX.
But you need to step back and look at what BTC was intended and how its not BTC's fault, but the fault of people who thought they could capitalize on it and ended up screwing a large portion of the people along with the sinking of its ship.

Would i still buy BTC?
Yes probably... but im very scared at where to put my eggs at the moment.
I still have funds locked up in Celsius and FTX, which i expect i will never see again, but hey, if worse comes to worse i can write them off as a loss when i trade out the BTC i had in coinbase, and not pay any taxes on them if they ever appreciate again.

Will i blindly invest in it?
I never did, nor do i ever intend.
I just had extra GPU's laying around gathering dust, that i just threw on mining duty for fun, and a little pocket change, and watched as that pocket change took a explosive return of interest on back in 2015 to 2021.

Do i mine now?
NOPE... i have a lot of used GPU's sitting gathering dust, but hey, that's what they used to do anyhow before i started to mine. I may donate them to my cousins who need PC's for there children and don't want to spend too much money.
I may raffle them off at church for a fund raiser to the Sunday school i teach at, and take my kids to magic mountain with the proceeds.

Who knows... yet anyone in 2023 who mines on a GPU is what i would agree with you "S T U P I D". You ASIC mine as its far more efficient and you get better capital of returns on it, but that is also answering your first statement. Technology has allowed for things to get cheaper.

Will i mine in the future?
Sure... if something is profitable, and can give me a decent amount of pocket change i can buy games on steam or pay for my VPN with, while still being cheaper then the cost of electricity spent, then a big YES.
If i can spend 5 dollars in electricity and get a greater then 8 dollar net of return, I'm all in for it, but as of right now, that's just not possible.

There were some important confounding variables this cycle, which you totally overlooked, like:

1) A world-wide pandemic
2) lockdowns
3) supply-chain shortages, including delivery-chain holdups
4) Gov't money-printing. (They printed something like more money in 3-4 years, than the entirety of the country's history before that, or something similarly crazy, I've read.)

Actually Larry in 2016 when crypto had its first major spike, it halted gamers getting gpu's.
I remember looking for my 1080ti only to see it majorly hiked at 200%+ msrp.
There was no covid... there was no lockdowns, there was no EDD payouts.
Only supply shortages because people wanted to mine as much as they could.

I do blame crypto for gamers not getting the 3000 gen gpu's.
I also blame crypto for the electricity hikes, and also how they are trying to kill solar in California by changing the net metering structure.
But i was part of that reason, so i can't say i don't understand that greed, expect, i was actually putting those GPU's to work intended by gaming on most of them. 100% of the high end cards i had on my farms were trickled down to mining duty. I only actually bought a few efficient cards when mining took a big boom, but 0 high end ones for the pure intent of mining.

Wow. I pay about 15 times that rate, currently.

Holy cow, you pay $1.05/kWH?
And here i thought me paying $.23/kWH was excessive when they raised rates starting next year.
And on top now they want to mess up my net meter rates, because solar people are "entitled"... who do you think provides the grid power in reverse during peak working hours? like from 11am-4pm.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,347
5,471
136
Also Satoshi did not intend on bitcoin to ever be a hedgefund 2000 master portfolio piece.
He visioned a decentralized banking system that didn't relay on one source, and instead would have thousands of ledgers spread across its users.
Its human greed that has inflated the BTC and ETH to what its worth today, not the conception of what it was intended for.

And Karl Marx intended that communism would give us an egalitarian society, and end exploitation of the vulnerable.

That pesky human nature always getting in the way of idealized flights of fancy.

Plus, Who knows what Satoshi actually intended. IIRC he holds more Bitcoin than anyone else.

Maybe he just realized that if he told a good enough story, he'd be filthy rich, which he is now...
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,537
4,036
126
And here i thought me paying $.23/kWH was excessive when they raised rates starting next year.
And on top now they want to mess up my net meter rates, because solar people are "entitled"... who do you think provides the grid power in reverse during peak working hours? like from 11am-4pm.
I don't want to derail the thread too much here. But, I'm about to put in solar and they pay net meter rates of $0.03/kWhr here. Meaning, there is no incentive to produce more than I consume as buying extra solar panels will never pay off here. You were quite lucky to get what you were getting for your excess solar. Plus, peak electricity consumption is 5 PM to 6 PM, depending on where you live: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,895
3,247
126
And Karl Marx intended that communism would give us an egalitarian society, and end exploitation of the vulnerable.

That pesky human nature always getting in the way of idealized flights of fancy.

Plus, Who knows what Satoshi actually intended. IIRC he holds more Bitcoin than anyone else.

Maybe he just realized that if he told a good enough story, he'd be filthy rich, which he is now...

well we can go down this train with Einstein and Oppenheimer.
One was the father of nuclear fusion, and the other of the end of all world.

History is always bound to find people to mess stuff up which was intended for the better of mankind.

Plus, peak electricity consumption is 5 PM to 6 PM, depending on where you live: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915

Nah most of us californian's are stuck in traffic at that time zone.
We have like one of the worst traffic in metro, and no reputable mass transit system anywhere in the south part.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
591
592
136
What's sad about all of this, massive frauds, rug-pulls, scams, exchanges becoming insolvent through "bad practices" (read, in most cases, criminal, sometimes the founder "disappears" with all of the money.)

It's a pretty bad look for the retail investor. Heck, cryptos originally weren't even supposed to be "investments", just a better way of making transactions for the common man. Kind of like when cell phones were ushered in, and suddenly, we got unlimited long distance or local, it didn't matter. No longer had to pay Ma Bell $0.10-$0.15 / min to talk to your buddy in the next town over. Or like the internet, being able to communicate with anyone all over the world without a per-connection fee was a small miracle.

Crypto, is basically like "the internet for money".

And, like most decentralized and democratized technologies, the best of these cryptos were "minable". Meaning, the common man donated their compute resources to the blockchain over the internet, and were rewarded with pieces of the currency as payment.

It (was) a fantastic way for people with spare computer power to make a few bucks, and keep the network essentially free and open. Bitcoin still upholds these ideals even today.

So crypto isn't "all bad". That's like saying, "p0rn ruined the internet, might as well get rid of the internet".

Eventually, all of the money-changers NFT salesmen will be driven from the Bitcoin temple grounds.
Nah, it was always going to end this way. Crypto was never just transferring 1s and 0s over the internet, it was inherently steeped in libertarian anti-regulatory ideology. It was a response to the 2008 financial crisis, but the absolute wrong one, that thought the problem was the regulations that kept average joe from getting in on the grift instead of the problem being the grift itself.

Hell, both Proof of Work and Proof of Stake are steeped in it, too, as silly as it sounds at first. One just rewards those with the biggest mining setup (bought with money) and the other just skips a step and rewards you for having more money.

Grift and scams are just part of an unregulated market. Be careful what you wish for (and what comparisons you use), the Great Jewish Revolt saw the temple torn down.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,754
8,647
136
Holy cow, you pay $1.05/kWH?

Well, I used an out-of-date exchange rate, it works out more like 70c/KwH, at the current exchange rate (and then there's the flat-rate daily charge just for having a supply at all on top of that).

However a simple exchange-rate calculation doesn't really account for how it relates to income (and underestimates the figure in that respect beause the £ has fallen against the $ quite a lot recently).

I think what I pay is typical for the UK now, maybe for most of Europe.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,345
10,953
136
No it became cheaper because we started flooring more fiber optic cables along the ground + sea bed.
Data became more dense, and more of it was able to cross with the same amount of effort.
In your definition Microsoft should be dirt cheap, but yet, everything across the board is way more expensive including cost of inflation even after they got broken up.

Technology allowed things to become cheap, not the breaking of monopolies.
You have 5G 4G and most places in the US have retired out 3G was it was too expensive to maintain including copper land line wires at home.



Are you really comparing those to crypto?
Really?

How uninformed in crypto are you to be comparing those to crypto?
In that case, the Credit Card utilized the first type of web transaction over phone modem.
The credit card predates everything you listed, but everything you listed including the credit card has to go though the government via a banking system.
Crypto was to circumvent that process and bypass the banking system entirely with the concept of Proof of Stake, where each transaction was not centralized by spread out amongst everyone on the network.



This is now, but lets look back in 2019 when that same GPU netted you way more.
Yes now GPU mining is trash, its all because of Eth.
Eth wanted to preserve its whale holders and screwed everyone else over.
This is why i really want Eth to burn and die.
The Whales are to blame for controlling Eth, its like the how the US says we need to preserve our currency... Great lets stop printing more money, and allow the millions of americans to suffer so the rich who have all that capital can profit even more.

Also Satoshi did not intend on bitcoin to ever be a hedgefund 2000 master portfolio piece.
He visioned a decentralized banking system that didn't relay on one source, and instead would have thousands of ledgers spread across its users.
Its human greed that has inflated the BTC and ETH to what its worth today, not the conception of what it was intended for.



*sigh*
I can really feel your hate with crypto, and i understand.
It wrecked us Gamers hardcore on GPU sources.
It wrecked electricity prices thoughout countries.
People who invested in it lost there entire portfolio's via Celsius + Voyage + FTX.
But you need to step back and look at what BTC was intended and how its not BTC's fault, but the fault of people who thought they could capitalize on it and ended up screwing a large portion of the people along with the sinking of its ship.

Would i still buy BTC?
Yes probably... but im very scared at where to put my eggs at the moment.
I still have funds locked up in Celsius and FTX, which i expect i will never see again, but hey, if worse comes to worse i can write them off as a loss when i trade out the BTC i had in coinbase, and not pay any taxes on them if they ever appreciate again.

Will i blindly invest in it?
I never did, nor do i ever intend.
I just had extra GPU's laying around gathering dust, that i just threw on mining duty for fun, and a little pocket change, and watched as that pocket change took a explosive return of interest on back in 2015 to 2021.

Do i mine now?
NOPE... i have a lot of used GPU's sitting gathering dust, but hey, that's what they used to do anyhow before i started to mine. I may donate them to my cousins who need PC's for there children and don't want to spend too much money.
I may raffle them off at church for a fund raiser to the Sunday school i teach at, and take my kids to magic mountain with the proceeds.

Who knows... yet anyone in 2023 who mines on a GPU is what i would agree with you "S T U P I D". You ASIC mine as its far more efficient and you get better capital of returns on it, but that is also answering your first statement. Technology has allowed for things to get cheaper.

Will i mine in the future?
Sure... if something is profitable, and can give me a decent amount of pocket change i can buy games on steam or pay for my VPN with, while still being cheaper then the cost of electricity spent, then a big YES.
If i can spend 5 dollars in electricity and get a greater then 8 dollar net of return, I'm all in for it, but as of right now, that's just not possible.



Actually Larry in 2016 when crypto had its first major spike, it halted gamers getting gpu's.
I remember looking for my 1080ti only to see it majorly hiked at 200%+ msrp.
There was no covid... there was no lockdowns, there was no EDD payouts.
Only supply shortages because people wanted to mine as much as they could.

I do blame crypto for gamers not getting the 3000 gen gpu's.
I also blame crypto for the electricity hikes, and also how they are trying to kill solar in California by changing the net metering structure.
But i was part of that reason, so i can't say i don't understand that greed, expect, i was actually putting those GPU's to work intended by gaming on most of them. 100% of the high end cards i had on my farms were trickled down to mining duty. I only actually bought a few efficient cards when mining took a big boom, but 0 high end ones for the pure intent of mining.



Holy cow, you pay $1.05/kWH?
And here i thought me paying $.23/kWH was excessive when they raised rates starting next year.
And on top now they want to mess up my net meter rates, because solar people are "entitled"... who do you think provides the grid power in reverse during peak working hours? like from 11am-4pm.
When did Microsoft get broken up?
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
Nah, it was always going to end this way. Crypto was never just transferring 1s and 0s over the internet, it was inherently steeped in libertarian anti-regulatory ideology. It was a response to the 2008 financial crisis, but the absolute wrong one, that thought the problem was the regulations that kept average joe from getting in on the grift instead of the problem being the grift itself.

Imagine if every stock was its own token on Ethereum (like the ICO tokens we said in 2017). Everything about that stock/token including its major holders and what they are doing would be 100% public at all times. Now go further and imagine that USDC is our native dollar too. You could trace not only shareholder activity, but also what funds from those sales are doing too. The same goes for mortgages and any other loans: all of that can be done - and even better, automatically enforced through crypto. So not only are finances transparent, but their governing rules are as well.

All of a sudden it becomes a lot harder for high level financial fraud to occur because there are no more closed doors or iron curtains. Crypto is a good middle ground because its transparent, but still keeps the average Joe anonymous at the p2p level.

Regulations are not the problem. That lack of transparency is. Regulation exists, yet corporation still get away with breaking the rules time and time again, and even worse - get bailed out afterward.

This was never about allowing the average Joe to get in on it the grift. Satoshi created something open, transparent, decentralized, and then let the world decide to do with it. And unfortunately but also not surprisingly: it's been a really rough ride thus far. Hopefully FTX is the final nail in unregulated centralization.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
591
592
136
Imagine if every stock was its own token on Ethereum (like the ICO tokens we said in 2017). Everything about that stock/token including its major holders and what they are doing would be 100% public at all times. Now go further and imagine that USDC is our native dollar too. You could trace not only shareholder activity, but also what funds from those sales are doing too. The same goes for mortgages and any other loans: all of that can be done - and even better, automatically enforced through crypto. So not only are finances transparent, but their governing rules are as well.

Oh boy, I can't wait for my house to get foreclosed because someone exploited my mortgage's immutable unpatchable smart contract!
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,331
251
126
Oh boy, I can't wait for my house to get foreclosed because someone exploited my mortgage's immutable unpatchable smart contract!

Yes, the wild west DeFi 200% volatile crypto collateralized loans with made up algorithmically backed stablecoins, minimal access controls so anyone can join - are very much representative of a mortgage loan based on an asset that has never depegged (USDC) and requires no collateral up front (because even the downpayment isn't exactly that) with 1:1 access control so only you and the lender can actually interact with it. /s

The rules of obtaining a mortgage aren't likely to change much just because funds are being funneled through... Uncle Sam's CBDC network in the future. But the transparency at least should.
 
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PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,569
736
136
Are you really comparing those to crypto?
Really?

How uninformed in crypto are you to be comparing those to crypto?
In that case, the Credit Card utilized the first type of web transaction over phone modem.
The credit card predates everything you listed, but everything you listed including the credit card has to go though the government via a banking system.
Crypto was to circumvent that process and bypass the banking system entirely with the concept of Proof of Stake, where each transaction was not centralized by spread out amongst everyone on the network.

Also Satoshi did not intend on bitcoin to ever be a hedgefund 2000 master portfolio piece.
He visioned a decentralized banking system that didn't relay on one source, and instead would have thousands of ledgers spread across its users.
Its human greed that has inflated the BTC and ETH to what its worth today, not the conception of what it was intended for.

Well... It seems to me that this comes close to identifying the reason crypto hasn't become a workable alternative to the traditional banking system.

Using the traditional banking system I can make payments and/or receive funds using posted exchange rates between currencies. I'll agree that what goes into these exchange rates isn't completely transparent, but at least I know what that exchange rate will be when I commit to a transaction.

If I try to make transfers using crypto then the effective exchange rate between the two currencies is muddied by the uncertainty of exchange rates for converting the two currencies into and out of crypto. And given crypto's volatile exchange rates that seems like a huge problem.

"The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men". Or maybe: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". It hardly matters what the crypto originators envisioned it would become. What matters is what it has actually become. And as there is at least a shade of human greed underlying the very concept of currency, the crypto originators would have to have been naive to overlook its possible effects.

Or so it seems to me... 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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