The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
imo, its the strat in general. We arent downing the strider fast enough (getting 2 up at the same time). Nagas are fine when we put melee on them. But we are using only 3 groups for the elementals and they are making it to the top.

The strat just gets worse and worse every second we are in P2.

Our leader is odd... he realizes the problem but doesnt fix it for the longterm. "oh, we need to get the strider part down - everyone kill the strider" we wipe. "oh, thats good, we can kill it. now everyone kill the nagas - 2 on strider" we wipe "oh we can kill the nagas" etc. etc. etc. We need to get the strider part down and keep the same # of people on it, then tweak the other parts. Do you know what I mean?

Go with what I suggested earlier:

Top team: (8 players)

2 tanks, one tanks in center, one brings nagas, both trade off on vashj during stuns/roots
4 melee, on naga full time (they need to do 972+ dps each minimum to kill before next one spawns)
2 healers, one on tank, one CoH/chain/hot the tank and melee and optional shield disabler

Strider team: (5 players)

1 kiter, lock or elemental shaman works best, plus they can anhk so you get two chances
4 ranged, 730+ dps each minimum to only have one strider at a time (not counting kiter dps due to constant running and slowing)

Elemental teams (4): (12 players)

1 melee, ideally rogue or warior for sprint moves, at the waters edge
1 ranged, up top on that side, dps elementals, and strider as it goes by, and optional shield disabler
1 healer, up on the top edge, heals that sides melee, ranged, himself, and the off tank, kiter, and ranged dps as they run by

Keep the throw chain as [elemental melee] -> [elemental healer] -> [elemental ranged] to decouple core tossing as a self contained independent event on each side. Break up what seems like a complex fight into a bunch of smaller simple units and focus not on mastering the fight as a whole, but on mastering the units. When the simple units all start working, the fight as a whole automatically works. Try to always bring the same people in the same roles each attempt, so each group "bonds" and gets used to working together on their specific task.

Idea is to:

a) have the right amount of dps to minimize risk of elemental leaks and never have more than 1 naga or strider up. This is where you will have to know the dps numbers and meet the above requirements so you never have more than 1 naga/strider.

b) make each group responsible for everything in their area of operation so the load is evenly distributed, and make each group completely autonomous and self sufficient in killing their targets, healing themselves, and tossing cores.

Also when you get close to phase 3, wait until you get about 5 seconds before the next naga/strider spawn before you disable the last shield so your current adds are almost dead before you have to deal with vashj.

If you are really calculating, you can time the transition when the naga and strider timers coincide. If you don't miss a single core, that would be 200 seconds into phase 2, the next naga/strider overlap after obtaining the forth core would be 360 seconds. Thats actually enough time to miss 3 cores, and you'd end up killing 8 naga and 6 striders, and spend 6 minutes in phase 2, so that might be a bit much.
 

AntiFreze

Golden Member
Oct 23, 2007
1,459
0
0
exdeath, i copied that pretty much word for word. I agree 110% that that would be the best strat to try. I just really hope they do that.

ty for the nice formatting btw, It should catch their eye as organized.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
exdeath, i copied that pretty much word for word. I agree 110% that that would be the best strat to try. I just really hope they do that.

ty for the nice formatting btw, It should catch their eye as organized.

You will find few guilds which farm Vashj and do things much different. Mostly, you just find subtle differences here and there. Definitely push for it. It will take practice, but given enough experience with this strat and you too can be an American Hero.
 

AntiFreze

Golden Member
Oct 23, 2007
1,459
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
exdeath, i copied that pretty much word for word. I agree 110% that that would be the best strat to try. I just really hope they do that.

ty for the nice formatting btw, It should catch their eye as organized.

You will find few guilds which farm Vashj and do things much different. Mostly, you just find subtle differences here and there. Definitely push for it. It will take practice, but given enough experience with this strat and you too can be an American Hero.

hehe, nice. American Hero... why not Azerothian Hero?
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
exdeath, i copied that pretty much word for word. I agree 110% that that would be the best strat to try. I just really hope they do that.

ty for the nice formatting btw, It should catch their eye as organized.

You will find few guilds which farm Vashj and do things much different. Mostly, you just find subtle differences here and there. Definitely push for it. It will take practice, but given enough experience with this strat and you too can be an American Hero.

we did it differently
but not much
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
exdeath, i copied that pretty much word for word. I agree 110% that that would be the best strat to try. I just really hope they do that.

ty for the nice formatting btw, It should catch their eye as organized.

You will find few guilds which farm Vashj and do things much different. Mostly, you just find subtle differences here and there. Definitely push for it. It will take practice, but given enough experience with this strat and you too can be an American Hero.

we did it differently
but not much

I feel your strat is conceptually the same. Some might disagree with the differences being "subtle" though . In any case, a dead boss is a dead boss.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
exdeath, i copied that pretty much word for word. I agree 110% that that would be the best strat to try. I just really hope they do that.

ty for the nice formatting btw, It should catch their eye as organized.

You will find few guilds which farm Vashj and do things much different. Mostly, you just find subtle differences here and there. Definitely push for it. It will take practice, but given enough experience with this strat and you too can be an American Hero.

we did it differently
but not much

I feel your strat is conceptually the same. Some might disagree with the differences being "subtle" though . In any case, a dead boss is a dead boss.

yea im just poking at ya, we never used mele on eles thats the only real difference, tho im sure that was more of a raid comp as we always ran a caster heavy raid
 

Glayde

Senior member
Sep 30, 2004
554
0
71
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Glayde

I'm pretty much going to say he fed you a load of crap and you took it.

Recount and other similar tools use the combat log.
What can be gleaned from a combat log is the order that you do things but not what keys you press etc.

No, it was explained to me properly. I think it was more of a case where I described incorrectly to you guys. I shouldn't have used the term "keystroke" because that is inaccurate. What I meant to say is that it records every ability you use along with the order. Regardless, the results that I described are the same. It doesn't offer any additional support which really makes a large impact over the support that mods like sw stats can offer. Instead, it mostly opens doors for finger pointing nonsense.


Well recount is more similar to Swstats, it just tracks damage, dps, heals, incoming damage etc and ability counts, (not neccesarily order)

WWS is a much more robust tool. It allows uploading of the combat log for dissection later.
This allows comparison of combat cycles, ability rotations etc. These can be pretty huge in determining if someone is performing or doing something horribly horribly wrong.




 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Glayde
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Glayde

I'm pretty much going to say he fed you a load of crap and you took it.

Recount and other similar tools use the combat log.
What can be gleaned from a combat log is the order that you do things but not what keys you press etc.

No, it was explained to me properly. I think it was more of a case where I described incorrectly to you guys. I shouldn't have used the term "keystroke" because that is inaccurate. What I meant to say is that it records every ability you use along with the order. Regardless, the results that I described are the same. It doesn't offer any additional support which really makes a large impact over the support that mods like sw stats can offer. Instead, it mostly opens doors for finger pointing nonsense.


Well recount is more similar to Swstats, it just tracks damage, dps, heals, incoming damage etc and ability counts, (not neccesarily order)

WWS is a much more robust tool. It allows uploading of the combat log for dissection later.
This allows comparison of combat cycles, ability rotations etc. These can be pretty huge in determining if someone is performing or doing something horribly horribly wrong.

All of them can potentially work out very well. Keep in mind that I am not bashing recount directly. I'm bashing the effect that such detailed information about another player's performance can potentially have. There are some people who just use it the wrong way and say the wrong things. It's their fault the mod is banned in my guild. Not the mod itself. My guild has yet to run into issues identifying the problems and weak ends we have for a raid encounter. So, I guess you could say that the decision to ban it was made because we really saw very little benefit and mostly potential problems.

There comes a point where you need to ask yourself when enough is enough in terms of collecting info about other players.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Glayde
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Glayde

I'm pretty much going to say he fed you a load of crap and you took it.

Recount and other similar tools use the combat log.
What can be gleaned from a combat log is the order that you do things but not what keys you press etc.

No, it was explained to me properly. I think it was more of a case where I described incorrectly to you guys. I shouldn't have used the term "keystroke" because that is inaccurate. What I meant to say is that it records every ability you use along with the order. Regardless, the results that I described are the same. It doesn't offer any additional support which really makes a large impact over the support that mods like sw stats can offer. Instead, it mostly opens doors for finger pointing nonsense.


Well recount is more similar to Swstats, it just tracks damage, dps, heals, incoming damage etc and ability counts, (not neccesarily order)

WWS is a much more robust tool. It allows uploading of the combat log for dissection later.
This allows comparison of combat cycles, ability rotations etc. These can be pretty huge in determining if someone is performing or doing something horribly horribly wrong.

All of them can potentially work out very well. Keep in mind that I am not bashing recount directly. I'm bashing the effect that such detailed information about another player's performance can potentially have. There are some people who just use it the wrong way and say the wrong things. It's their fault the mod is banned in my guild. Not the mod itself. My guild has yet to run into issues identifying the problems and weak ends we have for a raid encounter. So, I guess you could say that the decision to ban it was made because we really saw very little benefit and mostly potential problems.

There comes a point where you need to ask yourself when enough is enough in terms of collecting info about other players.

its a raid mentality thing, those who want to be on the absolute bleeding edge of progression are going to make sure everyone is doing everything they can to make that happen

its not so much as "collecting info" as it is monitoring performance
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Anubis

its a raid mentality thing, those who want to be on the absolute bleeding edge of progression are going to make sure everyone is doing everything they can to make that happen

its not so much as "collecting info" as it is monitoring performance

Toe-may-toe
Toe-maht-toe

It's not invasion of privacy. It's homeland security! I still think it the name of the mod should be changed to Big Brother.

You're right about the bleeding edge thing though which isn't necessarily bad, but it can be. Again, it's all about how you approach a situation using the info that you are presented with. When it comes to an organized group involving a video which is trying to be "casual yet progressive", it can be a problem when you have someone who is always putting in 110% but also expects that everyone else always put in 110% too because 98% just isn't good enough. It takes away from the casual feel and really does not help us progress any more. It just makes the 110% guy feel good and the rest are annoyed. Thankfully, this sort of thing doesn't happen much in my guild although we are not completely rid of it. We most definitely do not want to add fuel to that fire for no reason.



 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Anubis

its a raid mentality thing, those who want to be on the absolute bleeding edge of progression are going to make sure everyone is doing everything they can to make that happen

its not so much as "collecting info" as it is monitoring performance

Toe-may-toe
Toe-maht-toe

It's not invasion of privacy. It's homeland security! I still think it the name of the mod should be changed to Big Brother.

You're right about the bleeding edge thing though which isn't necessarily bad, but it can be. Again, it's all about how you approach a situation using the info that you are presented with. When it comes to an organized group involving a video which is trying to be "casual yet progressive", it can be a problem when you have someone who is always putting in 110% but also expects that everyone else always put in 110% too because 98% just isn't good enough. It takes away from the casual feel and really does not help us progress any more. It just makes the 110% guy feel good and the rest are annoyed. Thankfully, this sort of thing doesn't happen much in my guild although we are not completely rid of it. We most definitely do not want to add fuel to that fire for no reason.

My side would always be at full health and I would always be full mana, the kiters never died on our side, people from the neighboring elemental group would get next to me and stand there knowing I would heal anyone in range, and we'd handle our cores and have shields down in seconds without even having to call anything out. It was like this from the very first attempt.

I can say I got very tired of having to purposely wipe it out and run to the west side and let my melee and dps die due to a wipe call because someone else died in phase 1 or ran into a naga and got cleaved.

While members should not be calling out other members (it's up to the raid leaders to gauge performance and replace people as needed), at some point you have to decide, are you playing the game to socialize and be fair and make friends, or are you playing to master a computer program and win? Vashj is pretty much the boss that forces you to draw that line.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
Getting back to the epic gems for purchase... where are they coming from / sold by? I'm not seeing anything about it on wowwiki and don't know what to look for on wowhead. Example of a gem name or the vendor name would help.
 

AntiFreze

Golden Member
Oct 23, 2007
1,459
0
0
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: AntiFreze
imo, its the strat in general. We arent downing the strider fast enough (getting 2 up at the same time). Nagas are fine when we put melee on them. But we are using only 3 groups for the elementals and they are making it to the top.

The strat just gets worse and worse every second we are in P2.

Our leader is odd... he realizes the problem but doesnt fix it for the longterm. "oh, we need to get the strider part down - everyone kill the strider" we wipe. "oh, thats good, we can kill it. now everyone kill the nagas - 2 on strider" we wipe "oh we can kill the nagas" etc. etc. etc. We need to get the strider part down and keep the same # of people on it, then tweak the other parts. Do you know what I mean?

Go with what I suggested earlier:

Top team: (8 players)

2 tanks, one tanks in center, one brings nagas, both trade off on vashj during stuns/roots
4 melee, on naga full time (they need to do 972+ dps each minimum to kill before next one spawns)
2 healers, one on tank, one CoH/chain/hot the tank and melee and optional shield disabler

Strider team: (5 players)

1 kiter, lock or elemental shaman works best, plus they can anhk so you get two chances
4 ranged, 730+ dps each minimum to only have one strider at a time (not counting kiter dps due to constant running and slowing)

Elemental teams (4): (12 players)

1 melee, ideally rogue or warior for sprint moves, at the waters edge
1 ranged, up top on that side, dps elementals, and strider as it goes by, and optional shield disabler
1 healer, up on the top edge, heals that sides melee, ranged, himself, and the off tank, kiter, and ranged dps as they run by

Keep the throw chain as [elemental melee] -> [elemental healer] -> [elemental ranged] to decouple core tossing as a self contained independent event on each side. Break up what seems like a complex fight into a bunch of smaller simple units and focus not on mastering the fight as a whole, but on mastering the units. When the simple units all start working, the fight as a whole automatically works. Try to always bring the same people in the same roles each attempt, so each group "bonds" and gets used to working together on their specific task.

Idea is to:

a) have the right amount of dps to minimize risk of elemental leaks and never have more than 1 naga or strider up. This is where you will have to know the dps numbers and meet the above requirements so you never have more than 1 naga/strider.

b) make each group responsible for everything in their area of operation so the load is evenly distributed, and make each group completely autonomous and self sufficient in killing their targets, healing themselves, and tossing cores.

Also when you get close to phase 3, wait until you get about 5 seconds before the next naga/strider spawn before you disable the last shield so your current adds are almost dead before you have to deal with vashj.

If you are really calculating, you can time the transition when the naga and strider timers coincide. If you don't miss a single core, that would be 200 seconds into phase 2, the next naga/strider overlap after obtaining the forth core would be 360 seconds. Thats actually enough time to miss 3 cores, and you'd end up killing 8 naga and 6 striders, and spend 6 minutes in phase 2, so that might be a bit much.

So this is the response I got from quoting exactly that:

"I love all the enthusiiasm for working this out. I want you guys to play with having FEWER people on elementals. 8 DPS is way to much, thats 1/2 our DPS dedicated to things that have 7K health each. We are putting 6 on there and that should be plenty. The trick may be moving more ranged DPS to the middle to hel p on striders and be able to pick off close elementals easiliy.

We struggled with as many as 9 DPS to kill eleiites and barely got a strider down.. thinning that mix will only make it worse. We have to do MORE with LESS on the outsides. I think the mages and Locks did a great job last night and its jsut a matter of mastering the fight and making small tweaks"
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
they are correct in a way, you only need 4 people totally dedicated to eles, the other 4 are more twards the top and they DPS the Nagas/STRIDERS and any eles that get free

hunters fire mages and destro locks can literally 2 shot the eles
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: rh71
Getting back to the epic gems for purchase... where are they coming from / sold by? I'm not seeing anything about it on wowwiki and don't know what to look for on wowhead. Example of a gem name or the vendor name would help.

read

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=6320.0

damn I thought it was for gold... with so many dailies, so much gold, so little to do with it. I could buy arena points and save up for s4 I guess, but even that takes some time eh? How does that work? You just get in on 3 games?
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: rh71
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: rh71
Getting back to the epic gems for purchase... where are they coming from / sold by? I'm not seeing anything about it on wowwiki and don't know what to look for on wowhead. Example of a gem name or the vendor name would help.

read

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=6320.0

damn I thought it was for gold... with so many dailies, so much gold, so little to do with it. I could buy arena points and save up for s4 I guess, but even that takes some time eh? How does that work? You just get in on 3 games?

basicially do 3 games other people do 7 and win you get points
 

Glayde

Senior member
Sep 30, 2004
554
0
71
Well if they are paid for in badges you can expect people to throw them on the AH so you will be able to get them with gold.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Glayde
Well if they are paid for in badges you can expect people to throw them on the AH so you will be able to get them with gold.

this is true but they will cost you a fortune, spinels will prob go for 500G+
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: AntiFreze

So this is the response I got from quoting exactly that:

"I love all the enthusiiasm for working this out. I want you guys to play with having FEWER people on elementals. 8 DPS is way to much, thats 1/2 our DPS dedicated to things that have 7K health each. We are putting 6 on there and that should be plenty. The trick may be moving more ranged DPS to the middle to hel p on striders and be able to pick off close elementals easiliy.

We struggled with as many as 9 DPS to kill eleiites and barely got a strider down.. thinning that mix will only make it worse. We have to do MORE with LESS on the outsides. I think the mages and Locks did a great job last night and its jsut a matter of mastering the fight and making small tweaks"

Anubis is right. 4 out of those 8 dps (1 melee per quadrant) are for elemental/tainted only. The other 4 dps (1 ranged per quadrant) are required to dps striders before they dps enchanted elementals. Their kill priority should be:

Tainted - > Strider -> enchanted elems

That is what your raid leader is not understanding. These people need to multi task. Placing more ranged in the middle will help with strider dps. However, the problem you will face is that you will have more tainted elems despawning which is the worst thing that can happen since that means you have more striders, naga, and enchanted elems to kill before P3 begins. Killing all 4 tainted elems without having a single despawn makes a world of a difference in the fight.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: Glayde
Well if they are paid for in badges you can expect people to throw them on the AH so you will be able to get them with gold.

this is true but they will cost you a fortune, spinels will prob go for 500G+

Probably not for long. Everyone with 400+ spare badges (like me) will be buying 40 red gems to try to cash in, which will depress their value greatly. Right now spinels are so valuable because they are random drops, but they are the most useful color. Once you can buy them, their price will equalize with the other colors (in as much as living rubys anyway).
 
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