The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

You are really stretching with that post... Those 4 points are extremel weak. Seriously, you really think those points are valid? Because they are not. Let me respond to each point with a set of my own.

1) A Ret Paldin has insane burst damage. Druid? A druid can nuke decently well, and their cat form with some of the top end PVP gear is incredable damage. +915 attack power on their weapon? Druids are certainly not hurting. All three can be good DPS.

2) Plate matters very little in this game. What matters more is mitigation in general. For example, a Shadow Priest in shadow form has more mitigation than than a DW and 2H Warrior. Plate is just am armour type, nothing more... Again, the function of plate is supposed to be higher armour, which should equate into better mitigation, but it doesn't always work this way. Additionally, a DW or 2H Warrior (DPS) would give up his shield, which is about 5,000 AC.

3) Oh wow, once the novelty wears off - what is the point? Who cares if you can DW in plate? I mean, what other advantage does it give you that your second point tried to make?

4) You are equating switching stances with the ability for one class to Tank, Heal, and DPS? *Shakes Head* I have no idea how you consider stance dancing superior, it is part of the class itself, required to function as many abilities do not work unless we are in the correct stance.

Blizzard has failed in their goal. Don't let them fool you that they intended the clustercrap they have now. Anyone can claim that after - Kinda like AMD/ATI when they said the R600 was never designed to be high end and they aimed it for the GTS. No one believes that, except a few fanboys. Blizzard has no idea how to balance the classes, which is why every patch is either a nerf, or a buff of a certain class.

Honestly man, after that post I am not going to argue with you on this subject any longer. You are too bitter about it and way too concerned with optimization to have what I would consider a descent conversation. Your last comment about Blizz is really off in left field though. Blizz has not failed in their goal. WoW is a game...that's it. Their goal is to create a very fun game and that's all. They are successful. WoW is very fun. It's not perfect. It never will be. No game is. Above all else, they are not forcing nearly 10 million people to subscribe which says a lot about a game being fun.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I only expect the average warriors to be prot spec when tanking. Warriors with above average to superb skills can just switch gear and handle most tanking scenarios. I agree that druids have it better in this area though. You never have to ask a feral druid that is normally dps to respec to a tanking spec since they are both in the same tree. Still, there are effective specs that exist which involve mixing talents from the prot tree with other trees for dps. Warriors are more of a hybrid class than others despite some beliefs. They are more hybrid than rogues, mages, warlocks, and hunters for example and they can also pump out a lot of dps at the same time.

I swear all people think warriors that are tanking are prot warriors though . Can't tell you how many times I have DPS go all out seconds after I pick up a mob on my warrior. My guy's Arms/Fury not Prot . Also, you won't get good DPS builds out of some mish-mash prot build. Your typical Fury/Arms or MS/Flurry build is your best bet for warrior DPS (which MS/Flurry sacrifices Tactical Mastery).

We have wars with mixed specs and some with little to nothing in Prot. I find the problem with that is more about DPS and healers not understanding that you need to play much differently in order to run a successful 5 man when you got a Warrior with good tank gear and knows how to execute, but is not specced hardly at all in Prot. If all 5 members of the team understand that difference then the only difference you should notice about the run is that it takes a little longer. I won't deny that being Prot helps a whole lot though because it just does.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

You are really stretching with that post... Those 4 points are extremel weak. Seriously, you really think those points are valid? Because they are not. Let me respond to each point with a set of my own.

1) A Ret Paldin has insane burst damage. Druid? A druid can nuke decently well, and their cat form with some of the top end PVP gear is incredable damage. +915 attack power on their weapon? Druids are certainly not hurting. All three can be good DPS.

2) Plate matters very little in this game. What matters more is mitigation in general. For example, a Shadow Priest in shadow form has more mitigation than than a DW and 2H Warrior. Plate is just am armour type, nothing more... Again, the function of plate is supposed to be higher armour, which should equate into better mitigation, but it doesn't always work this way. Additionally, a DW or 2H Warrior (DPS) would give up his shield, which is about 5,000 AC.

3) Oh wow, once the novelty wears off - what is the point? Who cares if you can DW in plate? I mean, what other advantage does it give you that your second point tried to make?

4) You are equating switching stances with the ability for one class to Tank, Heal, and DPS? *Shakes Head* I have no idea how you consider stance dancing superior, it is part of the class itself, required to function as many abilities do not work unless we are in the correct stance.

Blizzard has failed in their goal. Don't let them fool you that they intended the clustercrap they have now. Anyone can claim that after - Kinda like AMD/ATI when they said the R600 was never designed to be high end and they aimed it for the GTS. No one believes that, except a few fanboys. Blizzard has no idea how to balance the classes, which is why every patch is either a nerf, or a buff of a certain class.

Honestly man, after that post I am not going to argue with you on this subject any longer. You are too bitter about it and way too concerned with optimization to have what I would consider a descent conversation. Your last comment about Blizz is really off in left field though. Blizz has not failed in their goal. WoW is a game...that's it. Their goal is to create a very fun game and that's all. They are successful. WoW is very fun. It's not perfect. It never will be. No game is. Above all else, they are not forcing nearly 10 million people to subscribe which says a lot about a game being fun.

hes is right tho, Blizz has no idea how to balance the classes they do 1 thing and it swings 1 way and they do something else and it swings back further in the other direction

whenever someone figures out something that works they nerf it, SL/SL and HARP are 2 prime examples

hell look at AV, look at how bad it has become, there have been hundreds of suggestions of how to simply fix it, they dont care or listen

they contradict themselfs alot, and are clearly biased twards certian classes and the horde

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Anubis
hes is right tho, Blizz has no idea how to balance the classes they do 1 thing and it swings 1 way and they do something else and it swings back further in the other direction

whenever someone figures out something that works they nerf it, SL/SL and HARP are 2 prime examples

hell look at AV, look at how bad it has become, there have been hundreds of suggestions of how to simply fix it, they dont care or listen

they contradict themselfs alot, and are clearly biased twards certian classes and the horde

Eh...I don't think class balance is the problem here. Whenever WoW players talk about class balance, they are referring to PvP which is not completely balanced but it is a lot better than it used to be 2 years ago. In the end, I do not believe that class balance is the core problem. I believe that the mixture of WoW's current PvP system and rules along with the PvE system and rules is the true problem. They conflict with each other too much and the result is prevention of being able to balance all of the classes properly. I have said before that WoW has always been and will always be a PvE game with PvP slapped on top of it. No MMO has ever developed a system where PvP and PvE mixed together with near perfect class balance and still remained fun for many years. I wouldn't say that is Blizzard's fault. They are not promising that sort of thing. They are just trying to achieve the goal that no one has ever achieved. I have yet to hear anyone who has a problem with the class balances come up with a true realistic solution which covers all ends for the vast majority of the player base.


***EDIT***

I should also add that Blizzard does listen to their fan base as much as they can. What I find more often than not are that the suggestions that players come up with which sound great but get turned down are done so for good reasons which were not considered at first by the most of the fan base. However, Blizzard considered it. They are normally better at seeing the whole picture more so than the fans and this is especially true in the sense that the fans do not consider that a great number of players are not the types of gamers that they are and not every decision which satisfies the hardcore WoW player also satisfies the majority of their player base. There are exceptions of course and every case is different. Blizzard doesn't claim to be perfect. They realize they make mistakes, but they also have a lot of dedication and are making a lot of quality progress. Most people cannot name other game developers who have the same dedication. They are few and far between.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Anubis
hes is right tho, Blizz has no idea how to balance the classes they do 1 thing and it swings 1 way and they do something else and it swings back further in the other direction

whenever someone figures out something that works they nerf it, SL/SL and HARP are 2 prime examples

hell look at AV, look at how bad it has become, there have been hundreds of suggestions of how to simply fix it, they dont care or listen

they contradict themselfs alot, and are clearly biased twards certian classes and the horde

Eh...I don't think class balance is the problem here. Whenever WoW players talk about class balance, they are referring to PvP which is not completely balanced but it is a lot better than it used to be 2 years ago. In the end, I do not believe that class balance is the core problem. I believe that the mixture of WoW's current PvP system and rules along with the PvE system and rules is the true problem. They conflict with each other too much and the result is prevention of being able to balance all of the classes properly. I have said before that WoW has always been and will always be a PvE game with PvP slapped on top of it. No MMO has ever developed a system where PvP and PvE mixed together with near perfect class balance and still remained fun for many years. I wouldn't say that is Blizzard's fault. They are not promising that sort of thing. They are just trying to achieve the goal that no one has ever achieved. I have yet to hear anyone who has a problem with the class balances come up with a true realistic solution which covers all ends for the vast majority of the player base.

things IMO were pretty well balanced before TBC came out, before the 2.0 patch things were near perfect for both PVE and PVP

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

You are really stretching with that post... Those 4 points are extremel weak. Seriously, you really think those points are valid? Because they are not. Let me respond to each point with a set of my own.

1) A Ret Paldin has insane burst damage. Druid? A druid can nuke decently well, and their cat form with some of the top end PVP gear is incredable damage. +915 attack power on their weapon? Druids are certainly not hurting. All three can be good DPS.

2) Plate matters very little in this game. What matters more is mitigation in general. For example, a Shadow Priest in shadow form has more mitigation than than a DW and 2H Warrior. Plate is just am armour type, nothing more... Again, the function of plate is supposed to be higher armour, which should equate into better mitigation, but it doesn't always work this way. Additionally, a DW or 2H Warrior (DPS) would give up his shield, which is about 5,000 AC.

3) Oh wow, once the novelty wears off - what is the point? Who cares if you can DW in plate? I mean, what other advantage does it give you that your second point tried to make?

4) You are equating switching stances with the ability for one class to Tank, Heal, and DPS? *Shakes Head* I have no idea how you consider stance dancing superior, it is part of the class itself, required to function as many abilities do not work unless we are in the correct stance.

Blizzard has failed in their goal. Don't let them fool you that they intended the clustercrap they have now. Anyone can claim that after - Kinda like AMD/ATI when they said the R600 was never designed to be high end and they aimed it for the GTS. No one believes that, except a few fanboys. Blizzard has no idea how to balance the classes, which is why every patch is either a nerf, or a buff of a certain class.

Honestly man, after that post I am not going to argue with you on this subject any longer. You are too bitter about it and way too concerned with optimization to have what I would consider a descent conversation. Your last comment about Blizz is really off in left field though. Blizz has not failed in their goal. WoW is a game...that's it. Their goal is to create a very fun game and that's all. They are successful. WoW is very fun. It's not perfect. It never will be. No game is. Above all else, they are not forcing nearly 10 million people to subscribe which says a lot about a game being fun.

I am sorry you feel that way. I felt that your points in that last post were terrible, while the ones in your previous post were great. That doesn't mean I think any less of you. You may think I am bitter, but the truth is, I am about as calm and relaxed as I can be about it. Remember - it is just a game - no reason to become bitter over anything in it. I am just clearly stating the Blizzard doesn't know how to balance the classes and that some classes are clearly favored over others.

I have the freedom to roll a Druid and a Paladin, in fact, I have both as alts, but that doesn't mean that I am going to refuse to see the truth in the matter. I am not going to close my eyes, plug my ears and yell "I am not listening" when class imbalance is talked about. I will freely discuss it with the facts and present my opinion on it.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Anubis
things IMO were pretty well balanced before TBC came out, before the 2.0 patch things were near perfect for both PVE and PVP

I would have to disagree with that, but that is just me and what I value the most in the game. I know not everyone values what I do in WoW in the same priority.

I feel that there are some things which are worse. Hunters are an example. Their trees need a lot of work with exception of maybe BM spec. However, I feel that more has improved than it has gotten worse. I love that raids are smaller for example. I also love that hybrids are much more "hybrid" than they used to be. Hybrid classes before TBC and the talent changes usually had one role in the PvE world and the rest of roles were deemed practically useless. Quests in general are much better. Replay value even on your main is better much thanks to daily quests. I could go on forever with this list.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Anubis
things IMO were pretty well balanced before TBC came out, before the 2.0 patch things were near perfect for both PVE and PVP

I would have to disagree with that, but that is just me and what I value the most in the game. I know not everyone values what I do in WoW in the same priority.

I feel that there are some things which are worse. Hunters are an example. Their trees need a lot of work with exception of maybe BM spec. However, I feel that more has improved than it has gotten worse. I love that raids are smaller for example. I also love that hybrids are much more "hybrid" than they used to be. Hybrid classes before TBC and the talent changes usually had one role in the PvE world and the rest of roles were deemed practically useless. Quests in general are much better. Replay value even on your main is better much thanks to daily quests. I could go on forever with this list.

Quests are certainly better in TBC, I agree with that.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

I am sorry you feel that way. I felt that your points in that last post were terrible, while the ones in your previous post were great. That doesn't mean I think any less of you. You may think I am bitter, but the truth is, I am about as calm and relaxed as I can be about it. Remember - it is just a game - no reason to become bitter over anything in it. I am just clearly stating the Blizzard doesn't know how to balance the classes and that some classes are clearly favored over others.

I have the freedom to roll a Druid and a Paladin, in fact, I have both as alts, but that doesn't mean that I am going to refuse to see the truth in the matter. I am not going to close my eyes, plug my eyes and yell "I am not listening" when class imbalance is talked about. I will freely discuss it with the facts and present my opinion on it.

This could have been a case of internet miscommunication then. Cheers! :beer:

I won't argue that the points I made are not the strongest due to what I know about what most warriors value in their class. I guess those points would be more important to me when it comes to my Warrior which isn't even level 60 for that matter. I don't claim to be a warrior expert. I don't think I would like the warrior as much if it could heal though just because I know Blizz would take something else away to make that possible in order to not disrupt class balance any further and in the end it would probably result in something nearly identical to a pally.

 

[Zbox]

How people can keep asking for more for hunters is beyond me (I have one). Their DPS has gone through the roof since the expansion in end game PvE; it's really quite ridiculous. Throw in the melee unfriendliness of near every encounter and you really start wondering why the hell you're still playing a class like a rogue.

Anubis is basically right. Things were much better before TBC came along and took a steaming crap on everything. Resilience is particularly my favorite.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

I am sorry you feel that way. I felt that your points in that last post were terrible, while the ones in your previous post were great. That doesn't mean I think any less of you. You may think I am bitter, but the truth is, I am about as calm and relaxed as I can be about it. Remember - it is just a game - no reason to become bitter over anything in it. I am just clearly stating the Blizzard doesn't know how to balance the classes and that some classes are clearly favored over others.

I have the freedom to roll a Druid and a Paladin, in fact, I have both as alts, but that doesn't mean that I am going to refuse to see the truth in the matter. I am not going to close my eyes, plug my eyes and yell "I am not listening" when class imbalance is talked about. I will freely discuss it with the facts and present my opinion on it.

This could have been a case of internet miscommunication then. Cheers! :beer:

I won't argue that the points I made are not the strongest due to what I know about what most warriors value in their class. I guess those points would be more important to me when it comes to my Warrior which isn't even level 60 for that matter. I don't claim to be a warrior expert. I don't think I would like the warrior as much if it could heal though just because I know Blizz would take something else away to make that possible in order to not disrupt class balance any further and in the end it would probably result in something nearly identical to a pally.

Agreed - One thing I keep in mind is that most conflicts on the forums would never have even happed had the conversation taken place in person. People generally (there are exceptions) are not assholes... However, the anonymity (spelling?) of the internet allows people to be on their worst behavior. Thank goodness, most people that post on AT pretty cool, you included.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Zbox
How people can keep asking for more for hunters is beyond me (I have one). Their DPS has gone through the roof since the expansion in end game PvE; it's really quite ridiculous. Throw in the melee unfriendliness of near every encounter and you really start wondering why the hell you're still playing a class like a rogue.

Anubis is basically right. Things were much better before TBC came along and took a steaming crap on everything. Resilience is particularly my favorite.

I am not saying that hunters should get more. I just think they need adjustment in a big way. There is much more to consider with a hunter than how much dps they can output. For example, take a look at the marksman tree right now. It is insanely broken. That tree is made to allow one to output the most dps possible using a ranged weapon and it is intended to be used in PvE the most. That is not the case at all now. It sucks compared to other builds in nearly every PvE situation and I don't even think it is anywhere near the spec of choice for PvP. Survival is a good tree but it is ridiculously gear dependent to take true advantage of and it is hard finding a set of good Survival gear if you are a raider. BM on the other hand is working pretty well, but it might be outputting too much dps. I'm not sure about that though because we have some excellent BM hunters in our guild and other classes still beat them a lot depending on the encounter.

In regards to rogues and the melee unfriendliness of a lot of encounters, I would say that it isn't fair to them compared to ranged classes but it also isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Rogues are not intended to be #1 in the dps charts for the majority of raid boss encounters despite popular belief. They are supposed to be #1 in some encounters while ranged should be #1 in others. I am hoping there are more encounters in WotLK which take melee into consideration and balance the overall increased raid DPS with mob health while still ensuring that the encounter isn't too extreme on he healers because increasing mob health does not direct balance itself out with increased raid DPS.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Zbox
How people can keep asking for more for hunters is beyond me (I have one). Their DPS has gone through the roof since the expansion in end game PvE; it's really quite ridiculous. Throw in the melee unfriendliness of near every encounter and you really start wondering why the hell you're still playing a class like a rogue.

Anubis is basically right. Things were much better before TBC came along and took a steaming crap on everything. Resilience is particularly my favorite.

my only current issue with hunters is arcane shot, come on they didnt need a ranged dispell that crits you for 1500, if you want them to have a ranged dispell give them a seprate shot like silencing shot, triggers the global CD and isnt in a normal DPS rotation

pre BC marks and surv both worked well BM was useless however the main issue with hunters is that the vast majority of them are terriable, i really think more bad players play hunters then anyother class, rogues sadly come in at 2nd on that list

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Zbox
How people can keep asking for more for hunters is beyond me (I have one). Their DPS has gone through the roof since the expansion in end game PvE; it's really quite ridiculous. Throw in the melee unfriendliness of near every encounter and you really start wondering why the hell you're still playing a class like a rogue.

Anubis is basically right. Things were much better before TBC came along and took a steaming crap on everything. Resilience is particularly my favorite.

I am not saying that hunters should get more. I just think they need adjustment in a big way. There is much more to consider with a hunter than how much dps they can output. For example, take a look at the marksman tree right now. It is insanely broken. That tree is made to allow one to output the most dps possible using a ranged weapon and it is intended to be used in PvE the most. That is not the case at all now. It sucks compared to other builds in nearly every PvE situation and I don't even think it is anywhere near the spec of choice for PvP. Survival is a good tree but it is ridiculously gear dependent to take true advantage of and it is hard finding a set of good Survival gear if you are a raider. BM on the other hand is working pretty well, but it might be outputting too much dps. I'm not sure about that though because we have some excellent BM hunters in our guild and other classes still beat them a lot depending on the encounter.

In regards to rogues and the melee unfriendliness of a lot of encounters, I would say that it isn't fair to them compared to ranged classes but it also isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Rogues are not intended to be #1 in the dps charts for the majority of raid boss encounters despite popular belief. They are supposed to be #1 in some encounters while ranged should be #1 in others. I am hoping there are more encounters in WotLK which take melee into consideration and balance the overall increased raid DPS with mob health while still ensuring that the encounter isn't too extreme on he healers because increasing mob health does not direct balance itself out with increased raid DPS.

Yes, a class can be broken, yet overpowered. That is how I would explain the hunter class. What gets me about hunters is how they can lay a trap in front me, I back up and somehow I am caught by it. I don't like that :-(... Can they still FD and then lay another trap? I always thought that bug should have been fixed.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Yes, a class can be broken, yet overpowered. That is how I would explain the hunter class. What gets me about hunters is how they can lay a trap in front me, I back up and somehow I am caught by it. I don't like that :-(... Can they still FD and then lay another trap? I always thought that bug should have been fixed.

I am not aware of how this bug works. Was it because FD used to bring them out of combat? If so, then that should be fixed since FD no longer brings them out of combat. That plus traps can be dropped while in combat now anyways.

Also, how close are they laying the trap down to you? One thing I know about hunter traps is that their radius of triggering is larger than the graphic of the trap. It also doesn't apply it's effect as soon as the trap is trigger due to server lag or something. I have seen plenty of mobs hit a trap and keep moving for a second or so before they get frozen.

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
The only thing I hate about being a warrior is the fact that people really want you to be protection spec'd yet to be potent anywhere else, you need a damage build (and different gear). A druid can be potent in other aspects with only different gear and essentially the same talent build.

The warrior is only required to spec protection, imo, at heroics and above! I've comfortably tanked many of the 5 mans with no points in protection. I'm sure most of you guys know this, but yeah, my 2 cents

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Malladine

Originally posted by: Aikouka
The only thing I hate about being a warrior is the fact that people really want you to be protection spec'd yet to be potent anywhere else, you need a damage build (and different gear). A druid can be potent in other aspects with only different gear and essentially the same talent build.

The warrior is only required to spec protection, imo, at heroics and above! I've comfortably tanked many of the 5 mans with no points in protection. I'm sure most of you guys know this, but yeah, my 2 cents

You can pull off heroics without being mostly Prot if the Warrior has the right gear and executes well enough. I would say that becomes more realistic once you reach the point of all Kara gear plus a number of SSC/TK pieces. You also have to have a great healer and dps that knows how to control themselves to a degree. If you are missing any of that criteria though then expect a bumpy ride.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Malladine

Originally posted by: Aikouka
The only thing I hate about being a warrior is the fact that people really want you to be protection spec'd yet to be potent anywhere else, you need a damage build (and different gear). A druid can be potent in other aspects with only different gear and essentially the same talent build.

The warrior is only required to spec protection, imo, at heroics and above! I've comfortably tanked many of the 5 mans with no points in protection. I'm sure most of you guys know this, but yeah, my 2 cents

You can pull off heroics without being mostly Prot if the Warrior has the right gear and executes well enough. I would say that becomes more realistic once you reach the point of all Kara gear plus a number of SSC/TK pieces. You also have to have a great healer and dps that knows how to control themselves to a degree. If you are missing any of that criteria though then expect a bumpy ride.

if its not a guild run you are missing one or more of those

theres a really funny thread on the wow forums in the Raids forums titled " You knew your pug was doomed when..."

some of the posts in there are just amazingly funny about how bad people are
its worth the read

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am not aware of how this bug works. Was it because FD used to bring them out of combat? If so, then that should be fixed since FD no longer brings them out of combat. That plus traps can be dropped while in combat now anyways.

FD drops combat .

Originally posted by: Xavier434
In regards to rogues and the melee unfriendliness of a lot of encounters, I would say that it isn't fair to them compared to ranged classes but it also isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Rogues are not intended to be #1 in the dps charts for the majority of raid boss encounters despite popular belief. They are supposed to be #1 in some encounters while ranged should be #1 in others. I am hoping there are more encounters in WotLK which take melee into consideration and balance the overall increased raid DPS with mob health while still ensuring that the encounter isn't too extreme on he healers because increasing mob health does not direct balance itself out with increased raid DPS.

I think you're missing the point. The point is that a lot of these encounters have damage that occurs near the enemy and this is very much anti-melee. Why would someone really want a rogue that has to constantly run out of melee range or be constantly healed over a ranged DPS class? Need CC? Bring a mage instead. Heck a good hunter can trap easily.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
4. Warriors can switch stances midfight to adjust their role if need be. Pallies cannot. Druids can shapeshift which is similar but not equivalent.

Your role doesn't change much when you switch stances. Just like a druid, you have multiple sets of gear for DPS or tanking.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
FD drops combat .

I thought they changed FD so that it drops aggro but doesn't bring you out of combat anymore? I thought I read that some time back but I could be mistaken.

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I think you're missing the point. The point is that a lot of these encounters have damage that occurs near the enemy and this is very much anti-melee. Why would someone really want a rogue that has to constantly run out of melee range or be constantly healed over a ranged DPS class? Need CC? Bring a mage instead. Heck a good hunter can trap easily.

I realize damage occurs near the enemy which does not occur at a distance in many cases. There are also cases where damage is more of a threat to ranged. Many of those cases involve a cone based spell which has a cast time which is often short but it is long enough for an attentive melee player to move out of the way. Since it is a cone, ranged do not always have time to move. In the end, I have found that my guild's most experienced rogues will still output a ton of damage which put them at the top or near the top of the DPS charts in many battles including the ones which are often bitched about for the usual melee reasons. They are very good at playing the in and out game which minimizes the damage they take while maximizing their DPS as much as possible. After witnessing these numbers, I blame a lot of these complaints on raw skill in addition to the disadvantages. The Rogue class is simply more challenging these days in terms of raiding than it used to be.

Keep in mind that I do recognize that they are still at an unfair disadvantage despite what I have seen. It is apparent. However, there are also many ways for a smart guild to manipulate their strat and work around these issues. It cannot be helped in some cases but it can be improved in most of them. For instance, many of the boss fights these days involve adds to handle in addition to the boss or the encounter has multiple boss mobs to take down in a single fight. DPS is often required to be split in order to efficiently handle these adds. It is important during the forming of your strat to take into consideration where your rogues will be most useful. Namely, assigning them to the task which requires the least running around and the least target changing. In the case of adds, you often want to place ranged on killing them while leaving melee on the main boss. That is much more efficient use of your raid. In every case, you want to assign classes to tasks which utilize their strengths the most.

Again, it is not as bad as everyone is making it seem. It's just more challenging than it used to be.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Aikouka
FD drops combat .

I thought they changed FD so that it drops aggro but doesn't bring you out of combat anymore? I thought I read that some time back but I could be mistaken.

no it still drops combat, hunters can FD-> Drink and FD to not get killed in a wipe

you cant FD-Jumper cables anymore tho

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I thought they changed FD so that it drops aggro but doesn't bring you out of combat anymore? I thought I read that some time back but I could be mistaken.

Oh, I most certainly have FD'd in instances when the group was going to wipe. Although I hate sitting there watching my poor pet die . I'm sorry Kuma! Oh and yes, I named my bear the generic name for "Bear", but at least it's in another language .

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I realize damage occurs near the enemy which does not occur at a distance in many cases. There are also cases where damage is more of a threat to ranged. Many of those cases involve a cone based spell which has a cast time which is often short but it is long enough for an attentive melee player to move out of the way. Since it is a cone, ranged do not always have time to move.

Cone spells have limited range. Unless the ranged player is way too close, they shouldn't be affected by it anyway. Not to mention a smart melee person attacks from behind (removing some of the mitigation/avoidance), which means a cone spell (which almost always affect a cone area in front of the attacker) are not even a worry for them.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
In the end, I have found that my guild's most experienced rogues will still output a ton of damage which put them at the top or near the top of the DPS charts in many battles including the ones which are often bitched about for the usual melee reasons. They are very good at playing the in and out game which minimizes the damage they take while maximizing their DPS as much as possible. After witnessing these numbers, I blame a lot of these complaints on raw skill in addition to the disadvantages. The Rogue class is simply more challenging these days in terms of raiding than it used to be.

This still doesn't go against the fact that in your average situation, it's more advantageous to bring a ranged DPS/CC class in comparison to a melee class that has a much higher chance of taking substantial damage. Avoiding some of these melee range AoE attacks require exact timing and exact positioning (like the warmasters in AV... on my mut/sub rogue, I had to stand in an exact position and run at the exact right time to avoid the whirlwind) and there's one thing about exact... sometimes you aren't exactly on .

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Keep in mind that I do recognize that they are still at an unfair disadvantage despite what I have seen. It is apparent. However, there are also many ways for a smart guild to manipulate their strat and work around these issues. It cannot be helped in some cases but it can be improved in most of them. For instance, many of the boss fights these days involve adds to handle in addition to the boss or the encounter has multiple boss mobs to take down in a single fight. DPS is often required to be split in order to efficiently handle these adds. It is important during the forming of your strat to take into consideration where your rogues will be most useful. Namely, assigning them to the task which requires the least running around and the least target changing. In the case of adds, you often want to place ranged on killing them while leaving melee on the main boss. That is much more efficient use of your raid. In every case, you want to assign classes to tasks which utilize their strengths the most.

There's no problem with target changing if you're not applying combo points to the new target (such as spell interruption, etc). Although you could easily have another class (such as the mage, with no GC on their CS) handle that without interrupting the rogue. One thing to consider is how bad for DPS it can be for a rogue to be on interruption duty. For example, in Mechanar when it comes to those robot dudes, when I have to be on duty to kick 'em... I have to have around enough energy to kick at all times, not to mention I cannot attack (with abilities) constantly or I'll be on the global cooldown! Such a pain in the ass.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Again, it is not as bad as everyone is making it seem. It's just more challenging than it used to be.

Playing a rogue was never as easy as some make it seem. It's easy to play the class yet harder to master it.

I still hate these moves on my healer... you know how much it sucks healing in half of these instances? Some of it does come down to poor players, but it's not like some of these instances are really "srs business" like raiding is.

Now to go back to the topic of warriors (that I seemingly didn't respond to some posts on). Yes, it's usually poor players making it hell on the tank, but frankly this is WoW... you can't get away from poor players! I don't expect players to be experts, but I do expect a bit of common sense.

What I find wrong in tanking is that people almost always expect you to be an uber aggro magnet so that they can do thousands of points of damage in seconds. Then they complain when they keep getting aggro. Yeah, that tends to happen when you keep doing damage to a mob that's aggro'd on you. It also doesn't help that tanks tend to get a lot of the blame in an instance. My friend was doing some tanking on his warrior and he got kicked out of a group for supposedly being a bad tank when he told me how none of the CC classes were CC'ing properly and the hunter would pull poly'd mobs with pats near them causing adds. It gets really frustrating playing a tank sometimes and having to put up with that kind of crap.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
Cone spells have limited range. Unless the ranged player is way too close, they shouldn't be affected by it anyway. Not to mention a smart melee person attacks from behind (removing some of the mitigation/avoidance), which means a cone spell (which almost always affect a cone area in front of the attacker) are not even a worry for them.

Limited range is a fact. However, it is often such a large range that it doesn't matter that there is a limit. Vashj's lightening is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Originally posted by: Aikouka
This still doesn't go against the fact that in your average situation, it's more advantageous to bring a ranged DPS/CC class in comparison to a melee class that has a much higher chance of taking substantial damage. Avoiding some of these melee range AoE attacks require exact timing and exact positioning (like the warmasters in AV... on my mut/sub rogue, I had to stand in an exact position and run at the exact right time to avoid the whirlwind) and there's one thing about exact... sometimes you aren't exactly on .

When it comes to raids, this is not a wise way to look at choosing your dps. It is far more important to have a mixture that includes melee dps. Leaving them out is a terrible idea. Every class has it's role in a raid. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes those roles do not allow them to maximize their dps, but that doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not their role is being fulfilled and the enemy is getting killed. It's the same with 5 mans in terms of roles and dead mobs.

Also, I rarely consider the fact that melee taking damage as being a threatening factor to consider when choosing my groups/raids with exception of the raids where the night is being focused on one boss where melee has much more of a disadvantage than usual but even then I normally bring one or two. I expect the best performance from my raiders. I expect them to know how to avoid that damage when they can. Being a healer, I understand the pressure it can cause but that also means I understand that it can be avoided through pure skill.

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I still hate these moves on my healer... you know how much it sucks healing in half of these instances? Some of it does come down to poor players, but it's not like some of these instances are really "srs business" like raiding is.

I'm a resto druid and have been for over two years so yes, I understand . As a healer, I look at it this way, there is only so much I can do to maximize my efficiency in a 5 man and in a raid. The rest of the roles need to do their part. Ultimately, my job is not to heal and prevent deaths although that is what needs to be done in almost all cases. Instead, it is to buy the tanks and the DPS as much time as possible to kill the bad guy no matter how I decide to do it. If I am doing my best and they cannot complete that task within the time frame I can give them, then either they need to improve or I need to do something to extend that time. 95% of the time, they need to improve or the strat needs to be changed a bit. That is the bottom line when it comes to being a healing class.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
When it comes to raids, this is not a wise way to look at choosing your dps.

I'm not talking about raiding .

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Being a healer, I understand the pressure it can cause but that also means I understand that it can be avoided through pure skill.

I highly doubt you understand what it's like to be a melee person in those situations without actually being one.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I'm a resto druid and have been for over two years so yes, I understand . As a healer, I look at it this way, there is only so much I can do to maximize my efficiency in a 5 man and in a raid. The rest of the roles need to do their part. Ultimately, my job is not to heal and prevent deaths although that is what needs to be done in almost all cases. Instead, it is to buy the tanks and the DPS as much time as possible to kill the bad guy no matter how I decide to do it. If I am doing my best and they cannot complete that task within the time frame I can give them, then either they need to improve or I need to do something to extend that time. 95% of the time, they need to improve or the strat needs to be changed a bit. That is the bottom line when it comes to being a healing class.

Still doesn't negate the fact that these moves are extra strenuous on the healer and they wouldn't be at all if your DPS were ranged .

I've been a rogue for as long as I've played this game and frankly it's a lot more fun playing most of my other characters in an instance now than it used to be. It's also a lot more ezmode. My mage is probably the easiest of all when it comes to a DPS class with CC. Macros make polymorph a joke so you can never lose your target and still keep your poly target sheeped.

Speaking of CC... I hate it when people assign ranged mobs for my hunter to CC. Especially a caster when we're in some huge open room. I never know how long it's going to take to get to "my mob" so I prefer to lay a trap early so the cooldown will be up by the time the mob unfreezes ( also, if the mob resists or breaks early ). I may have silencing shot but that certainly doesn't help that much . If I can use LoS, then I'm usually fine, but then I'm wasting time standing behind a wall when I could be doing super awesome Huntard DPS!

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I'm not talking about raiding .

Neither was I. That was misleading though which I apologize. Read the last sentence.

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I highly doubt you understand what it's like to be a melee person in those situations without actually being one.

I don't claim to understand it as well as they do, but that doesn't mean I do not understand it very well.

Originally posted by: Aikouka
Still doesn't negate the fact that these moves are extra strenuous on the healer and they wouldn't be at all if your DPS were ranged .

I don't know...I rarely notice the difference and when I do notice I can easily compensate. God forbid I actually use my innervate on a 5 man boss fight or maybe I have to actually add regrowth to my stacked HoTs:laugh:. I joke because it very rarely happens even on heroics for most bosses. Maybe that wouldn't be the case if I pugged more, the rogues in my guild were less skilled, or the quality of our gear was much lesser.

If we are talking about raids here, then it is often more strenuous on the healers if we do not have melee because there are always boss fights where melee has a role which they can fulfill the best and if ranged is used then the odds of more pressure being on the healers is increased for one reason or another. It is on a case by case basis. I have experienced that scenario before. With raids, it is always about class balance and variety.


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