The begining of the end of DSLR's, Trey Ratcliff.

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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
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So what can an SLR do that solely depends on SLR mechanics? Apart from an "analog" viewfinder, there really isn't much that I can think of off the top of my head.
Maybe phase detect AF, but that can probably be solved.

Sony solved the focus issue with a translucent fixed mirror. They call it SLT
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
(only read the first page) I would say this, If Trey wants to stop using a dslr then good for him, even though i highly doubt he will. People in the dslr world know this "the bigger sensor wins". This is the part of the camera that takes in all the light from the lens and extracts that color. These 3rd generation cameras have there place, such as portability and lightweight, but picture quality is not better than dslr's. Im not saying its bad but just not as good. The fact that he's talking about tech that will be (prob) available in/after 5 years is like not buying a cpu today because in 5 years the tech for cpu's will surpass what is available now. personally I think he is just trying to drum up a conversation and drw people to his website, nothing else.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
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Canon 'Solved' that problem 20+ years ago, then dumped it.

It eats 1/3rd of the light that comes into the camera.

I don't think Sony's blocks nearly as much light. Did the Canon from 20 years ago have an optical viewfinder that depended on reflected light?
 

arrfep

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2006
2,318
16
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I don't think Sony's blocks nearly as much light. Did the Canon from 20 years ago have an optical viewfinder that depended on reflected light?

Ya. Canon's (1RDS or something) was pretty much exactly an SLR but the mirror was stationary and only semi-silvered. So optical path was the same as an SLR, but the mirror didn't move to expose the film. No moving mirror allowed for unprecedented burst rates.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_RT
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
0
0
So what can an SLR do that solely depends on SLR mechanics? Apart from an "analog" viewfinder, there really isn't much that I can think of off the top of my head.
Maybe phase detect AF, but that can probably be solved.

Nikon "solved" this by retaining phase detect AF in the mirrroless Nikon 1, and I have read nothing but tremendous praise for its AF capability.

Number one, for me, is the loss of the SLR optical viewing system. Secondly, smaller bodies means smaller batteries. With the LCD always on, I douby you'll have anywhere the battery life of a DSLR. Thirdly is the loss of flash power. Can anybody see an SB-910 on these "smaller is better" cameras?

JR
 
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Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
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The fact that he's talking about tech that will be (prob) available in/after 5 years is like not buying a cpu today because in 5 years the tech for cpu's will surpass what is available now.

While computing requirments may become more demanding in the next 5 years, today's camera tech can easily last and produce results for the next 5 years. There are likely people still happily shooting with the original 1Ds from 2003. I don't think the technologies are exactly comparable.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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TanisHalfElven

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,520
0
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Nikon "solved" this by retaining phase detect AF in the mirrroless Nikon 1, and I have read nothing but tremendous praise for its AF capability.

Number one, for me, is the loss of the SLR optical viewing system. Secondly, smaller bodies means smaller batteries. With the LCD always on, I douby you'll have anywhere the battery life of a DSLR. Thirdly is the loss of flash power. Can anybody see an SB-910 on these "smaller is better" cameras?

JR

the battery point is extreamly valid.
i can take 700+ (haven't maxed it out yet) photo's on one charge using my rebel. i can't even imagine how much a screen would drop that by but it'd be a lot less.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
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GoSharks

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 1999
3,057
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Nikon "solved" this by retaining phase detect AF in the mirrroless Nikon 1, and I have read nothing but tremendous praise for its AF capability.

Number one, for me, is the loss of the SLR optical viewing system. Secondly, smaller bodies means smaller batteries. With the LCD always on, I douby you'll have anywhere the battery life of a DSLR. Thirdly is the loss of flash power. Can anybody see an SB-910 on these "smaller is better" cameras?

JR

You've listed a number of benefits to having a *larger* camera, but beyond the viewfinder, there is nothing that you listed which results directly from SLR mechanics. Why SLR?

The post I was replying to included this:
All options that are eroding one end of what SLR's used to cover, but theres still a whole lot an SLR can do for you nothing else can.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
0
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You've listed a number of benefits to having a *larger* camera, but beyond the viewfinder, there is nothing that you listed which results directly from SLR mechanics. Why SLR?

The post I was replying to included this:

I get what you're saying. A full-frame full-size mirrorless is an interesting thought project, but is anybody thinking about making one? I do think we're a ways away from having an electronic viewfinder that is as good as the SLR. Until the Nikon 1, losing phase detect AF would be an issue (speed) - this is basically solved.

There is a lot of inertia in SLR's because they have been a good system for a long time. It is mature technology that does the job. Its replacement has to be better, not merely just as good. If we get away from the idea of a small camera, what is the real benefit to going mirrorless? Less moving parts are always good, but SLRs are very durable and relatively trouble free. Thinner isn't a tremendous benefit. Faster fps in burst, perhaps, but for how long? How large is the buffer? How many frames per second do we need for stills? Is it better to have more per second, or more seconds @ 10-14 fps? What about the loss of entire lens systems? Isn't that the reason we stick with our brand of choice, no matter who is in front at the moment?

The question can't be about if SLR's are better, because they are the status quo. The question has to be about the replacement technology being enough better to overcome the inertia of a product that does its job very well.

JR
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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I bought a DSLR. And I didn't use anything beyond the kit lenses. So the new Canon G1x is really interesting. because changing lenses is unnecessary for most people, who just want a decent zoom.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
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I bought a DSLR. And I didn't use anything beyond the kit lenses. So the new Canon G1x is really interesting. because changing lenses is unnecessary for most people, who just want a decent zoom.

:hmm: Did you mean to post in the g1x thread?

I mostly agree with you though - that the g1x may be all many people, who would otherwise buy a dslr, ever need. Not an option for me though, nor are any of the EVILs, until they're made to a K7/K5 level of ruggedness and sealing.
 

Railgun

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2010
1,289
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What about the loss of entire lens systems? Isn't that the reason we stick with our brand of choice, no matter who is in front at the moment?

That's the real trick isn't it? How many Canon folks got ticked off in 87? Even in 2003 they separated mounts.

So long as the companies retain their current mount for the SLR equivalent mirrorless bodies so we DON'T lose those lenses, all will be right in the world and it will be just another body upgrade.
 

SecurityTheatre

Senior member
Aug 14, 2011
672
0
0
Or...I was just pointing out some things that are objectively true, and that really don't matter to almost everybody.

JR

Modern digital cameras are limited by lens resolution and diffraction effects at all but near optimal apertures in almost all lenses except top-quality primes.

Any further arguing about resolution in full-frame SLR formats should frankly be limited to theory or rare situations in professional or technical photography.

However, as you go down to smaller lenses, this become even more pronounced, so your average consumer-grade camera is almost entirely lens limited, as i said above.

So.... given this... since resolution and contrast is almost entirely determined by the lens aperture in consumer-grade cameras, it's not until you get close to full-frame sensors that we're still pushing the sensor technology. This makes the digital vs film debate really relevant ONLY when talking about professional-grade lenses in sizes probably bigger than APS-C or larger.

The remainder of the discussion about format quality is in the lenses. Frankly, the iPhone sensor won't get better without better lenses, the same goes for most compact cameras. There might be a few lines of resolution or a stop or two of dynamic range and contrast to be found in technology improvements, but the remainder is tied up in the physics of matter and diffraction and is tied up in the quality of the material and manufacturing and (more importantly) the size of the aperture.

However, there is nothing I know of that is inherent in the concept of "SLR" with a moving reflex mirror that can't be overcome with technology.

So, while I agree with the original article that perhaps the "SLR" will go away, he appears to be arguing that we should consider ditching our current lenses because new mirrorless cameras will use smaller lenses. I am arguing that this is silly, unless you're willing to accept the trade-offs that comes with that (namely, being stuck at today's lower resolution and contrast, in exchange for portability).

That's great for amateurs, but as a professional, the author of this bit may find himself rethinking his position in a few years... or perhaps the system as it is now is adequate for his usage, which is just great, but his mythical "smaller, faster, higher resolution, better contrast" camera won't ever exist because it's physically impossible.

 
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Feb 19, 2001
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That figure is all over the net for 2011. I don't think anyone is saying that film use has not decined. 20 million is 20,000,000 units. Name another product that sold 20 million units last year and is considered done and gone.

I had thought the peak was 1 Billion rolls sold in 2000. An additional sign of the decline is the number of new cameras sold, down from 19.7 million in 2000 to around 100,000 in 2011. Still, that's 100,000 NEW film cameras sold in the US in 2011. Far from done and gone.

Please understand, I'm not going to buy stock in a film company...

JR
20 million from 800 millions easily considered done and gone. I'm not saying it's completely DEAD, but like you said... you're not gonna buy stock in a film company. That says it there.

You're using 20 million because it's a "big" number. I'm pretty sure if we only sold 20 million plastic containers of beverages the next year, the plastic bottling industry would be DEAD... because it's probably in the billions each year. Like Blinky said it's a 97.5% decrease in 13 years. You have to look at relative numbers.

Film is around for a few artists, but for mainstream consumers it's dead. It's like saying Nokia Symbian is alive because there are still millions of users out there using it. However the hundreds of millions of Android/iOS devices out there far outweigh the number of "old" users still stuck on Symbian.

There's still a market out there for film, but there's just fewer and fewer resources out there as the market concentrates in digital.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
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IIRC, the EVIL cams have different mounts from their dslr brethren because of the shallower clearance from mount to sensor, due to no longer needing room for a mirror and mechanism. There may be adapters though.

http://www.popphoto.com/gear/2011/0...ree-new-e-mount-lenses-and-to-e-mount-adapter

Wow, so the adapter has a built in phase detect AF with a translucent mirror. It basically adapts your NEX to an Alpha! But you lose the advantage of the NEX cameras' contrast autofocus, which is that 30% of the light isn't lost to a mirror.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
0
0
20 million from 800 millions easily considered done and gone. I'm not saying it's completely DEAD...

Yes, you are. Done and gone > DEAD. "Dead" allows for the cadaver to still be laying around, "done and gone" doesn't.

BTW, I'm nitpicking alkemyst's logical fallacies. (Non Sequitur argument using implied exaggeration)

alkemyst said
People thought digital would never replace film.


Interestingly, being around and aware when digital cameras first came out, this statement is also literally wrong. Everyone knew that digital would ultimately replace film before digital cameras were on the market. The digital revolution had been going on for some time.

We did know it would take a while, and it has not completely happened yet. Digital will replace film, even though film (as an analog storage medium) will have certain traits that will remain superior to digital. Digital will completely replace film before it surpasses every advantage of film.

People thought VHS would never replace Beta.

JR
 
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