The best low-power SFF lineup you've never heard of: Intel's Z3735F Atom system

[TeknoBug]

I'm thinking about replacing the Zotac Pico with an Intel NUC or Gigabyte BRIX Broadwell i3 model, just so I can play some more demanding games - Goat simulator, Dust,and etc..., but nothing AAA.

I'm very happy with my NUC with i3, plays some of those games pretty well (obviously with lower settings), been playing Left 4 Dead 2, Aion, Guild Wars 2, SWGemu and Cities: Skyline on it and temps still under 40C. The i3 5010U has a MUCH better GPU and should play mid-range games at decent framerates.

Any of thse have linux ? Still thinking I shoudl wit till next generation when 4GB+ is supported.

IIRC the Pico's BIOS won't let you install a 64bit Linux distro so you'd end up having to install a 32bit version, same for my Windows tablet (Z3740D), it will not let me boot 64bit even though the CPU is capable of handling 64bit OS. However I read somewhere that Ubuntu has some kind of workaround for that.

 

[Kaido]

IIRC the Pico's BIOS won't let you install a 64bit Linux distro so you'd end up having to install a 32bit version, same for my Windows tablet (Z3740D), it will not let me boot 64bit even though the CPU is capable of handling 64bit OS. However I read somewhere that Ubuntu has some kind of workaround for that.

There's a workaround - you can use a 32-bit bootloader with a 64-bit operating system, if you're using Linux:

http://liliputing.com/2014/10/run-ubuntu-zotac-zbox-pico-mini-pc-kinda.html

There are some quirks tho: the 64-bit version is missing some drivers for the Pico (Wifi in particular - needs some driver research to be fully-functional, it's not an OOTB thing), and existing Linux distributions don't support 32-bit UEFI implementations currently, according to that article, so it's not exactly straightforward...they try to lock you into Win8 as much as possible.

 

[Kaido]

Some good discussion on UEFI in this thread:

http://superuser.com/questions/853009/possible-to-install-64-bit-windows-on-32-bit-uefi

32-bit Windows (x86) is installed on 32-bit UEFI. 64-bit Windows (x64) is installed on 64-bit UEFI. This is part of the UEFI specification, which dictates that the underlying firmware match the OS runtime (easier for firmware interfaces).

With Windows 8.1:

You can put Windows 8.1 x86-x64 AIO on a USB stick and it will boot. You have the option of selecting between the 32 bit and the 64 bit Windows installation.

If you select the 64 bit option it will try to install it, given that your device has a 64 bit processor, but since it has a 32 bit UEFI firmware, winload.efi will crack because it expects a 64 bit UEFI firmware

There's some discussion of 32-bit UEFI compatibility on the Ubuntu forums here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2252391

Some more discussion on options like booting Ubuntu from a USB stick here:

http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/01...-t01-and-other-intel-atom-bay-trail-mini-pcs/

So all of these issues goes back to the history of UEFI & Windows; this Change.org petition has some more info on it:

https://www.change.org/p/tablet-makers-fix-the-lack-of-64-bit-firmware-on-early-bay-trail-tablets

Millions of 64-bit tablets using Intel Atom "Bay Trail" processors cannot run in 64-bit mode. This was due to a bug in Windows that has since been fixed. We are asking the tablet vendors to offer a firmware update that corrects this.

When Intel launched "Bay Trail" Atom tablets, Microsoft supported them with a new feature called InstaGo. At launch, it was a bit buggy. Microsoft couldn't support it in 64-bit mode. So, initially, tablets with Bay Trail processors shipped with 32-bit firmware.

That means that, even though you have a 64-bit tablet, it cannot run 64-bit apps. It's stuck in 32-bit firmware and thus acts as a 32-bit device.

Why is this bad? First, you can't run most Linux operating systems. Even in 32-bit mode, thanks to most Linux platforms not supporting UEFI32-only devices. Second, future Windows versions may require a 64-bit environment. But most importantly, you lose the benefits of 64-bit, including its performance increases.

Microsoft has since offered Windows 8.1 Update, which fixes InstaGo on 64-bit. There's no reason for these vendors to not do the right thing and update their tablets with a UEFI64 firmware update.

Most PC makers seem poised to offer new/identical tablets with 64-bit firmware. Dell and ASUS have already started this. We are asking that our devies not be hindered by a firmware limitation that could easily, and quickly, be fixed with a simple update.

So they advertise the 64-bit quad-core Atom all over the place, and yet you receive a device with a 32-bit UEFI BIOS & a 32-bit copy of Windows 8.1, which is the version that has the patch to run on 64-bit UEFI, but the device manufacturers have been lazy & haven't fixed it, which limits compatibility with the rest of the universe. So we're pretty much hosed on the RAM cap anyway until that changes...they'll have to fix that for the next batch of super-cheap chips if they want to use 4-gigs or more like the 64-bit Z3795 chips do:

http://laptoping.com/intel-atom-z3795-benchmarked-brings-4gb-ram-support-no-speed-boost.html

I almost wonder if Microsoft is incentivizing manufacturers not to do anything about it, because it prevents us from doing an easy Linux install or a 64-bit Windows 7 install, which would give us a myraid of cheap computers running operating systems they don't want us to run. Plus with Windows 10 being free & all...hmm. Seems like we're at a junction with hardware because they can't sell devices limited to 2 gigs of RAM forever (granted, Windows 8 handles low RAM surprisingly better than previous generations did), so we'll have to get a 64-bit UEFI upgrade at some point (and the better Atom chips already have it & are running 64-bit OS's), it's just a matter of time. So for now, enjoy your 32-bit Windows 8.1 with Bing, hahaha.

 

[you2]

I think I'll wait for the next generation that supports 4+GB and linux. Right now the chromebox is pretty decent and the i3/i5 nuc aren't too expensive. Kind of like of the idea of a usb stick that I can drop in my backpack and take with me when travelling (hotels and such) but this just too crippled at the price point.

 

[Zodiark1593]

Can we get a gaming console on a stick. I'd bet Nintendo could do wonders with that.

 

[Kaido]

Can we get a gaming console on a stick. I'd bet Nintendo could do wonders with that.

We'll see it, at some point. Technically you could do it with the existing Intel Compute-esqe sticks (Meego & Lemel), an emulator package like Maximus Arcade, and some Bluetooth controllers, if you're into older 2D games. With Nvidia's new X1 GPU setup for Android, we're seeing great performance shrink down, so I'd imagine we'll see something awesome within the next few years!

 

[Kaido]

I think I'll wait for the next generation that supports 4+GB and linux. Right now the chromebox is pretty decent and the i3/i5 nuc aren't too expensive. Kind of like of the idea of a usb stick that I can drop in my backpack and take with me when travelling (hotels and such) but this just too crippled at the price point.

Yeah...it will probably be at least one or two more generations before we see that tho, they'll probably be selling this SoC concept (32-bit UEFI & 2GB RAM) for the next year or two.

It's almost to the point where you could use this as a regular computer...2 gigs of RAM & 20-gigs of free space is just a tad too low for a realistic desktop replacement. 4 gigs of RAM with a 128gb eMMC would be ideal, optionally with a bulit-in DVD drive (because I know that would sell - $249 for a tiny computer with Windows? Yeah!).

 

[Kaido]

Speaking of the $179 pricepoint, Staples has the Asus X205 Z3537 11.6" laptop for that price right now:

http://www.staples.com/ASUS-X205TA-HATM0103-Notebook-PC/product_1530327

Also includes a year of Office 365, which is nice, and is $20 cheaper than the HP Stream 11. Good video review here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7XlwWP4IKk

Another desktop box option, the Oneisall CX-W8, showed up on Amazon for $109 (shipping takes over a month right now, from China obviously). It's a dual-boot box, although Youtube commentors are saying it comes unactivated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO57EBValuQ

If you're looking for something a bit beefier, check out the ECS Liva X, which has the faster Baytrail-T chip (Celeron dual-core) with an option for a 4GB/64gb configuration. Anandtech posted a review a couple months ago:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8883/ecs-liva-x-review-a-fanless-bay-trailm-minipc

It's BYO OS tho; says it supports Win8, plus Win7 via mSATA SSD, as well as Linux/Ubuntu (subject to version). Price jumps up to $249 + OS for the good one though, so it's kind of straying from the nice sub-$200 Z3735 pricepoint. Lots of interesting options out there right now!

 

[w0ss]

I bought a CX-W8 and it came in a few days. It did come un-activated. Still trying to decide what I want to do with it.

 

[Kaido]

I bought a CX-W8 and it came in a few days. It did come un-activated. Still trying to decide what I want to do with it.

Thanks for the confirmation, I was thinking about picking one up due to the low price, but I guess the reason for the cheapness is the lack of a Windows license :\ Have you played with the Android side of things? Is it pretty good?

 

[w0ss]

The one I bought only had windows 8.1.

My understanding is 8.1 with bing is free on this hardware so I don't understand why they wouldn't include it.

 

[ElFenix]

The RAM is a really big deal - read Gizmodo's review of the HP Stream Mini: (they upgraded theirs with BIG benefits)

http://gizmodo.com/hp-stream-mini-review-a-deceptively-capable-tiny-deskt-1692158242

I'm fairly certain you could not buy a gateway or emachines for $400 back in the 90s. The first $1000 PC back in the late 90s was a pretty big deal.

edit: huh, guess emachines did start selling a 'computer' for $399 in late 1998. wonder what it was? some semi-compatible cyrix processor?i have a PC mag from mid 99 and a dell with a 400 mhz celeron, 32 mb ram, 8 mb rage video, and 4.3 gb hard drive was $999 (granted, with 15" monitor).

 

[Kaido]

The one I bought only had windows 8.1.

My understanding is 8.1 with bing is free on this hardware so I don't understand why they wouldn't include it.

Yeah, it kills the deal because unless you want to illegally activate it (and cancel out automatic Windows Updates & Windows Defender updates in the process to prevent it from re-activating), you're going to have to pay $99 for a Win8 license, which bumps the price from $109 to $209, which is far more expensive than other box options. Thanks again for the heads up. Bummer

Other than that, how is it? Does it get hot at all?

 

[Kaido]

I'm fairly certain you could not buy a gateway or emachines for $400 back in the 90s. The first $1000 PC back in the late 90s was a pretty big deal.

edit: huh, guess emachines did start selling a 'computer' for $399 in late 1998. wonder what it was? some semi-compatible cyrix processor?i have a PC mag from mid 99 and a dell with a 400 mhz celeron, 32 mb ram, 8 mb rage video, and 4.3 gb hard drive was $999 (granted, with 15" monitor).

Edit: Nevermind, wrong date

 

[Face2Face]

I bought a CX-W8 and it came in a few days. It did come un-activated. Still trying to decide what I want to do with it.

You should be able to activate it, but you'll have to call the activation number to do so. This is what I had to do with my Chinese Onda V975W Tablet.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/326851

 

[ElFenix]

Mmm, 1366x768 @ 18.5":

http://www.computershopper.com/desktops/reviews/emachines-ez1601-01

This was a '99 AIO model. Even had PS2 ports on it It's funny because you don't think of the words "budget", "all in one", "$400 computer", or "Atom processor" from the 90's era (granted, late 90's), but the Atom line has actually been around since 1998, which is going on 17 years now. Pretty crazy!

That processor didn't come out until 2008 so I doubt that is a 1999 model.

 

[Kaido]

That processor didn't come out until 2008 so I doubt that is a 1999 model.

Edited the post, entirely wrong date, that's what I get for posting early in the morning

 

[Kaido]

Got the MeLe PCG03 in:

1. It's running a legit version of Windows, specifically: Windows 8.1 Single Language. Came in English, activated upon Internet connection.

2. My only complaint is that the headphone jack is right under the wireless antenna, so if you have a thick headphone or speaker cable, you're going to need an adapter (like the old iPhone ports had...skinny to thicker).

http://i.imgur.com/QYwsp4r.jpg

3. It's HUGE (compared to the Zotac Pico):

http://i.imgur.com/izBdXTt.jpg

It's about the same thickness as a BRIX (NUC), a little less deep but wider on the side:

http://i.imgur.com/qhQFidp.jpg

4. It came with an international plug in the box, but outside of the box (in the shipping box) they had a U.S. power adapter, so they apparently bundle for wherever they ship it to.

Despite the relatively enormous size, I actually kind of like the larger footprint because it makes it less likely to grow legs & walk off. The HDMI stick version is very susceptible to theft; this MeLE has a Kensington lock port, so if you need to, you can lock it down. It also appears to have 4 holes for a VESA installation, although no mounting hardware was included in my box. Very nice to have HDMI, VGA, and LAN in a compact package with 3 USB ports (and a full-sized SD port) for just under $200.

 

[Face2Face]

Got the MeLe PCG03 in:

I looks to be a big boy for a Z3735 SOC PC. Can you do me a favor? Could you post a picture of the Zbox Pico & BRIX together? I'm trying to see how well a Brix will find behind a wall mounted TV. I already have the Zbox PICO behind it now.

Thanks!

 

[Kaido]

I looks to be a big boy for a Z3735 SOC PC. Can you do me a favor? Could you post a picture of the Zbox Pico & BRIX together? I'm trying to see how well a Brix will find behind a wall mounted TV. I already have the Zbox PICO behind it now.

Thanks!

Sure. I picked one out to color match too

http://i.imgur.com/DcNRBAp.jpg

That's one of the newer Intel NUC boxes. The Pico is about half the height & half the depth (same width). The NUC is already hand-sized; the Pico is palm-sized.

I have some customers who mount their NUCs on the back of monitors (provided they're not using wall-mounts, swing-arms, or dual/triple monitor stands). Some mount the VESA bracket to the wall, or sometimes use heavy-duty velcro tape to mount the VESA plate to say the back of a wall-mounted LCD TV, then hang the BRIX from that. Works great!

 

[Face2Face]

Sure. I picked one out to color match too

http://i.imgur.com/DcNRBAp.jpg

That's one of the newer Intel NUC boxes. The Pico is about half the height & half the depth (same width). The NUC is already hand-sized; the Pico is palm-sized.

I have some customers who mount their NUCs on the back of monitors (provided they're not using wall-mounts, swing-arms, or dual/triple monitor stands). Some mount the VESA bracket to the wall, or sometimes use heavy-duty velcro tape to mount the VESA plate to say the back of a wall-mounted LCD TV, then hang the BRIX from that. Works great!

Thanks for doing that. I'm going mount one on the back on my TV with some heavy duty velcro.

 

[Kaido]

Got the Lemel HDMI stick in:

1. From pre-shipment conversations with them (Lemel via Newegg), it has a legit version of multi-language 8.1; they setup an account & switch it to English for you, so you don't have to navigate through the Chinese menus yourself (optionally, otherwise . Unlike the single-language version that came with the MeLE, this just says "Windows 8.1 with Bing", and sometimes when the system stutters (chokes a bit), the menus flash in Chinese (like the blue program titles). But, it is an activated & legitimate license.

2. It includes an HDMI extender (which was handy, since my multi-port test monitor's plugs were too close & I couldn't plug it in directly), as well as a USB cord with an A/C power plug. So you can use it off a built-in USB hub, or off an A/C jack. Curious to test power consumption with a regular jack, a 2.1A jack (and I think they sell 2.5A etc. A/C plugs), and USB power.

3. Gets hot. Not warm - HOT. Like hot bowl of the microwave hot. I don't think I will use this in production due to the heat generated, it's worrisome.

4. It's stuttery. The A/C plug-driven models are smooth; this model is stuttery. Like just putzing around the system can cause some GUI & mouse lag. It's not all the time, but it's enough to be noticable & annoying. I'll run updates & do the usual stuff to confirm it does this all the time.

5. Sometimes 1080p Youtube plays smoothly, other times not. The weird thing is it doesn't peg the CPU; it has stuttery playback at like 50% usage. So I'm not sure if it's not turbo boosting, or thermal-limiting the Intel HD GPU performance, or performance-limited due to the USB 5V power source, or what. But it's not an OOTB "minimum" experience of being able to play HD Youtube videos effortlessly every single time. I suspect it's thermally-limited since it seems to play fine when the stick is running cool, but slows down when it gets toasty after a few minutes of fullscreen Full HD video playback. Not 100% sure yet.

6. It is amazing that they fit a whole computer in this. Just bonkers really. And we just accept that it is what it is. I've been showing it off all day to coworkers and everyone is blown away.

Overall, for this particular unit, I like the concept, but we're a generation or two away from it being usable. If it had a 14nm Atom chip in there, it'd probably be a different story due to the thermal problem it has right now. The concept is excellent, however - most printers are wireless now, and a single Unity receiver can handle a mouse & keyboard (plus other devices), so that would fill up your USB port (unless you opt for a Bluetooth keyboard & mouse).

 

[Face2Face]

Got the Lemel HDMI stick in:

1. From pre-shipment conversations with them (Lemel via Newegg), it has a legit version of multi-language 8.1; they setup an account & switch it to English for you, so you don't have to navigate through the Chinese menus yourself (optionally, otherwise . Unlike the single-language version that came with the MeLE, this just says "Windows 8.1 with Bing", and sometimes when the system stutters (chokes a bit), the menus flash in Chinese (like the blue program titles). But, it is an activated & legitimate license.

2. It includes an HDMI extender (which was handy, since my multi-port test monitor's plugs were too close & I couldn't plug it in directly), as well as a USB cord with an A/C power plug. So you can use it off a built-in USB hub, or off an A/C jack. Curious to test power consumption with a regular jack, a 2.1A jack (and I think they sell 2.5A etc. A/C plugs), and USB power.

3. Gets hot. Not warm - HOT. Like hot bowl of the microwave hot. I don't think I will use this in production due to the heat generated, it's worrisome.

4. It's stuttery. The A/C plug-driven models are smooth; this model is stuttery. Like just putzing around the system can cause some GUI & mouse lag. It's not all the time, but it's enough to be noticable & annoying. I'll run updates & do the usual stuff to confirm it does this all the time.

5. Sometimes 1080p Youtube plays smoothly, other times not. The weird thing is it doesn't peg the CPU; it has stuttery playback at like 50% usage. So I'm not sure if it's not turbo boosting, or thermal-limiting the Intel HD GPU performance, or performance-limited due to the USB 5V power source, or what. But it's not an OOTB "minimum" experience of being able to play HD Youtube videos effortlessly every single time. I suspect it's thermally-limited since it seems to play fine when the stick is running cool, but slows down when it gets toasty after a few minutes of fullscreen Full HD video playback. Not 100% sure yet.

6. It is amazing that they fit a whole computer in this. Just bonkers really. And we just accept that it is what it is. I've been showing it off all day to coworkers and everyone is blown away.

Overall, for this particular unit, I like the concept, but we're a generation or two away from it being usable. If it had a 14nm Atom chip in there, it'd probably be a different story due to the thermal problem it has right now. The concept is excellent, however - most printers are wireless now, and a single Unity receiver can handle a mouse & keyboard (plus other devices), so that would fill up your USB port (unless you opt for a Bluetooth keyboard & mouse).

That's very interesting to hear. I can believe it get's very hot because of it's tiny form factor. I wonder how the official Intel stick will do in this regard?

On a side note, I've been monitoring my Zotac Pico, and it seems all of the CPU cores and the GPU will max out around 80c when using the device for an extended amount of time. During normal usage, their around 60-65c. My son played Awesomenauts on this box for a couple of hours straight the other day, and it did lock up. It was a nice excuse to get him off the couch and get outside, but I'm not 100% if it was due to heat? I've got more playing around to do, but this box plays Awesomenauts and Castle Crashers great @ 1080p low settings with Frame-rates in the 40's-70's with Vsync off.

 

[Kaido]

That's very interesting to hear. I can believe it get's very hot because of it's tiny form factor. I wonder how the official Intel stick will do in this regard?

On a side note, I've been monitoring my Zotac Pico, and it seems all of the CPU cores and the GPU will max out around 80c when using the device for an extended amount of time. During normal usage, their around 60-65c. My son played Awesomenauts on this box for a couple of hours straight the other day, and it did lock up. It was a nice excuse to get him off the couch and get outside, but I'm not 100% if it was due to heat? I've got more playing around to do, but this box plays Awesomenauts and Castle Crashers great @ 1080p low settings with Frame-rates in the 40's-70's with Vsync off.

What are you using for temp monitoring under Win8? I'll throw it on the Lemel. The MINIX & PCG03 don't get hot; MINIX gets warm & I haven't tested the PCG03 long enough yet, but I doubt it'll even get warm due to the huge(ish) size. Also, here's some pics - first one on top of the Pico for size reference:

http://i.imgur.com/7Nrs4aU.jpg

In the hand:

http://i.imgur.com/f8Mxors.jpg

Side profile:

http://i.imgur.com/ganp6ul.jpg

 

[w0ss]

You should be able to activate it, but you'll have to call the activation number to do so. This is what I had to do with my Chinese Onda V975W Tablet.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/326851

Interesting I didn't even think to call. I was going to just install attempt to install Linux on it but Windows is easier.