The Big Bang!

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

yet you need no proof that the Big Bang "just happened"?

We observe all past world lines converging into a singularity. What else should we conclude?

and that all matter has just always been and always will be?

We observe the conservation of energy. What else should we conclude?

As I stated above, I don't get that.

Yes, that is certain.

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

yet you need no proof that the Big Bang "just happened"? and that all matter has just always been and always will be? As I stated above, I don't get that.

Nobody said we have to believe the same thing. Also, I never stated my position on the Big Bang. My position is "I don't know, and nobody else does, either."

But it sure is fun to speculate, isn't it?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

It all depends on what you believe is the correct theory. If you believe in string theory, then our universe is just ripple caused by two membranes contacting (think of thin curtains waving in the breeze, and each time they contact each other another universe is created) M-Theory (unifies the 5 string theories into one theory)

If you believe in a cyclical universe and time, then we are just in one of the universes "pulses". If that's the case then another similar (or completely different) universe would have been before our Big Bang.

There are some other theories out there, and it all depends on which theory you subscribe to that will be the "correct" answer for what was before the Big Bang.

PS The Big Bang Theory is a great tv show.

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Homerboy

yet you need no proof that the Big Bang "just happened"?

We observe all past world lines converging into a singularity. What else should we conclude?

and that all matter has just always been and always will be?

We observe the conservation of energy. What else should we conclude?

As I stated above, I don't get that.

Yes, that is certain.

You selectively quoted and you're missing my point/question though... As I stated earlier I believe in the Big Bang, conservation of matter/energy etc etc... but how can somebody question somebody that blindly believes in a God that has always been, when he himself believes in matter than has always been and an explosion that just happened one day.

 

[Amused]

I don't know.

Notice that answer? I did not claim to know the unknowable, nor did I substitute a deity to explain the unknown.

I simply said I don't know. And that is the ONLY honest answer one can give.

It amazes me that so many are incapable of simply saying "I don't know."

 

[BrokenVisage]

http://www.physorg.com/news126955971.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/scie...pr/26/universe.physics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw

Some of my favorite links involving the Big Bang Theory.

My thoughts on it are a little out there so I'll leave it out for now, but I will say I do subscribe to the theory that time began with the Big Bang and didn't exist before, though it took me some time to come to that conclusion and I could jump that fence on that issue at any given moment.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

Originally posted by: BradAtWork

Originally posted by: MBrown
God. It is impossible for this not to be.

You're an idiot. It is impossible for this not to be.

Why is he an idiot for believing that? (granted I think the post was partial sarcasm). I don't get how people can accept that there was "always something" before the Big Bang and that the Big Bang just "happened" one fine day, but they can not accept that other people believe that a God has always been... whats the logical difference?

(mind you I believe in the Big Bang and science and all that jazz as much as the next guy... but I also believe that, without a doubt there COULD BE a God that made it all and made it all happen.

I don't accept that there is some divine being that existed before things existed, and nor do I accept the current theories of how everything began in the Big Bang. I mean, how it was explained it my second Astronomy course was excellent, and I wish I could repeat that... but I like having concrete answers. I have a constant desire to know how everything works, why things are the way they are, etc etc.
The only way I can see some kind of deity existing, is it evolved (or multiple ones, hell, why can't the Egyptians be right. I'm more apt to believe them than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or whatever's beliefs) during the last universe's time (which collapsed and started the process of creating our universe). And found a way to live on without worlds existing, and possibly was behind the destruction of the previous universe. Like Hitler in a deity.
...
omg
Maybe this Hitler deity created Hitler in his image? And seriously hated the Jewish people. Something they wrote about him just didn't make his day. :laugh:

but no, unless someone can provide me answers, I'll never believe in a deity, just doesn't connect logically in my mind. In my opinion, religion is an opiate to soothe the natural quest for answers. Oh, want to know why the fuck we exist? This book tells all!
Really, we're a pointless race, just like life in general, but since life happened, evolution will have its way. We're simply creatures with one purpose: make babies. I guess having no purpose other than baby making doesn't sound like fun to some people, and thus the idea of a 'better life' after this one is calming. I'll enjoy the permanent sleep 6 feet under, or scattered somewhere... don't know where yet. I don't care. I'm going to enjoy this life as much as possible, because there isn't another chance.

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[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

You selectively quoted and you're missing my point/question though...

You wrote all of 3 sentences, and I responded to each one directly. How that is "selective quoting" is beyond me.

As I stated earlier I believe in the Big Bang, conservation of matter/energy etc etc... but how can somebody question somebody that blindly believes in a God that has always been, when he himself blindly believes in matter than has always been and an explosion that just happened one day.

Because as I described, it isn't a "blind belief." And for what it's worth, the Big Bang was not "an explosion."

 

[AmpedSilence]

Originally posted by: jaqie

Originally posted by: DrPizza
There is no "before". Time began with the big bang.

And at a time the world was flat, and the speed of sound could not be broken. The very nature of science means a "fact" today may be proven wrong tomorrow. If you follow the universe to it's logical conclusion, one of two things happen by my reconing: either the huge amounts of mass we know now expand to infinity or the black holes eventually pull everything into them, and then pull eachother together into a single singularity of mass. This is already partially observed through our observations of the behaviour of black holes. This means that it's quite possible that the single point which will result from this could be the very thing that happened at the beginning of our universe, and that it may not be the first time it happened, either. Stating "there is no before" is just as much conjecture, and possibly even more conjecture, then the alternate theory which I have proposed (probably has been proposed many times before as well) here.

but that's just a recursive argument; then the question that follows, what was there before that universe, and that one, and that one, etc. Basically before the cycles of epanding and contracting started, what was there?

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Homerboy

Originally posted by: BradAtWork

Originally posted by: MBrown
God. It is impossible for this not to be.

You're an idiot. It is impossible for this not to be.

Why is he an idiot for believing that? (granted I think the post was partial sarcasm). I don't get how people can accept that there was "always something" before the Big Bang and that the Big Bang just "happened" one fine day, but they can not accept that other people believe that a God has always been... whats the logical difference?

(mind you I believe in the Big Bang and science and all that jazz as much as the next guy... but I also believe that, without a doubt there COULD BE a God that made it all and made it all happen.

I don't accept that there is some divine being that existed before things existed, and nor do I accept the current theories of how everything began in the Big Bang. I mean, how it was explained it my second Astronomy course was excellent, and I wish I could repeat that... but I like having concrete answers. I have a constant desire to know how everything works, why things are the way they are, etc etc.
The only way I can see some kind of deity existing, is it evolved (or multiple ones, hell, why can't the Egyptians be right. I'm more apt to believe them than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or whatever's beliefs) during the last universe's time (which collapsed and started the process of creating our universe). And found a way to live on without worlds existing, and possibly was behind the destruction of the previous universe. Like Hitler in a deity.
...
omg
Maybe this Hitler deity created Hitler in his image? And seriously hated the Jewish people. Something they wrote about him just didn't make his day. :laugh:

but no, unless someone can provide me answers, I'll never believe in a deity, just doesn't connect logically in my mind. In my opinion, religion is an opiate to soothe the natural quest for answers. Oh, want to know why the fuck we exist? This book tells all!
Really, we're a pointless race, just like life in general, but since life happened, evolution will have its way. We're simply creatures with one purpose: make babies. I guess having no purpose other than baby making doesn't sound like fun to some people, and thus the idea of a 'better life' after this one is calming. I'll enjoy the permanent sleep 6 feet under, or scattered somewhere... don't know where yet. I don't care. I'm going to enjoy this life as much as possible, because there isn't another chance.

+

+

I said nothing about a formulated or organized religion though I said "a God" Don't confuse the two as they are 2 seperate things. I know MANY people that believe in "a God" but do not believe or belong to an organized religion

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Homerboy

You selectively quoted and you're missing my point/question though...

You wrote all of 3 sentences, and I responded to each one directly. How that is "selective quoting" is beyond me.

As I stated earlier I believe in the Big Bang, conservation of matter/energy etc etc... but how can somebody question somebody that blindly believes in a God that has always been, when he himself blindly believes in matter than has always been and an explosion that just happened one day.

Because as I described, it isn't a "blind belief." And for what it's worth, the Big Bang was not "an explosion."

FYI I removed the "blindly" from my initial post before you posted your response. I saw that error right after I submitted it as such. And, for whats it's worth, I realize the Big Bang was not an "explosion" it was a figure of speech

 

[PrinceofWands]

The last day (and perhaps the restaurant at the end of the universe). The best idea I've heard is the cyclical notion of an expanding universe, eventually collapsing in on itself for some reason until everything (literally) is gone, at which point it all explodes outwards again in another big bang. Why? I have no idea. But it's about the only rational solution that solves for eternity.

Another interesting variation is the hourglass notion...where you picture a point in space as the center of the hourglass...the big bang blows everything out to one side where it expands for a time, until collapsing back to that center point where it all explodes out the other side...and so on, back and forth, ad infinitum. Again, no idea why (and since it's somewhat more complex I have to question it's validity based solely on occam's razor).

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: BigJ
Bob Dole.

No no, Al Gore. I'm sure he invented the big bang. Or was that Bill Clinton...

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Renob
What was there before The Big Bang

Just curious.

A huge, humongous, whole lot of nothing?

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: BigJ
Bob Dole.

No no, Al Gore. I'm sure he invented the big bang. Or was that Bill Clinton...

no big bang for Clinton, only a bj.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: shocksyde

Originally posted by: MBrown
God. It is impossible for this not to be.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahha

*inhale*

Ahhhhh-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

No, really, haha.

??? are you that insecure about the possibility of God's existence?

Yeah, geeze. Mr Over-Reaction

Anyway, to see what might have been before the big bang, check out Brane Theory. It'll blow your mind.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

Originally posted by: shocksyde

Originally posted by: eits

??? are you that insecure about the possibility of God's existence?

Not at all. It'll be very easy to convince me of his existence. I just need proof. And not "the grass is green and the sky is blue" proof.

yet you need no proof that the Big Bang "just happened"? and that all matter has just always been and always will be? As I stated above, I don't get that.

But things such as astronomy and the development and growth of the universe can be observed. We can see physical proof.
With Supreme Beings, we have no physical proof. We have stories, that are thousands of years old and people believe in them and think that the English version they read is the exact word of God. They fail to comprehend that religion was and is used to control people and the scriptures and writing while having some truth in them, have been, not might have been, but HAVE BEEN altered since the original writings.
People don't understand that before the printing press, people hand wrote copies of books. The people that did this copying were typically monks or other clergy, and the accuracy of their copies is soley based on their credibility to not change things to their own liking.
Like in todays age we have several "branches" of Christianity. There's Catholics, Mormons, Methodists, ect. Who's correct?

Now, when I look in the night sky, I can confirm that there are planets other than Earth, There are stars other than the Sun. There are galaxies other than our own.
It's fact vs fiction.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: BigJ
Bob Dole.

No no, Al Gore. I'm sure he invented the big bang. Or was that Bill Clinton...

no big bang for Clinton, only a bj.

My bad.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Homerboy

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Homerboy

Originally posted by: BradAtWork

Originally posted by: MBrown
God. It is impossible for this not to be.

You're an idiot. It is impossible for this not to be.

Why is he an idiot for believing that? (granted I think the post was partial sarcasm). I don't get how people can accept that there was "always something" before the Big Bang and that the Big Bang just "happened" one fine day, but they can not accept that other people believe that a God has always been... whats the logical difference?

(mind you I believe in the Big Bang and science and all that jazz as much as the next guy... but I also believe that, without a doubt there COULD BE a God that made it all and made it all happen.

I don't accept that there is some divine being that existed before things existed, and nor do I accept the current theories of how everything began in the Big Bang. I mean, how it was explained it my second Astronomy course was excellent, and I wish I could repeat that... but I like having concrete answers. I have a constant desire to know how everything works, why things are the way they are, etc etc.
The only way I can see some kind of deity existing, is it evolved (or multiple ones, hell, why can't the Egyptians be right. I'm more apt to believe them than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or whatever's beliefs) during the last universe's time (which collapsed and started the process of creating our universe). And found a way to live on without worlds existing, and possibly was behind the destruction of the previous universe. Like Hitler in a deity.
...
omg
Maybe this Hitler deity created Hitler in his image? And seriously hated the Jewish people. Something they wrote about him just didn't make his day. :laugh:

but no, unless someone can provide me answers, I'll never believe in a deity, just doesn't connect logically in my mind. In my opinion, religion is an opiate to soothe the natural quest for answers. Oh, want to know why the fuck we exist? This book tells all!
Really, we're a pointless race, just like life in general, but since life happened, evolution will have its way. We're simply creatures with one purpose: make babies. I guess having no purpose other than baby making doesn't sound like fun to some people, and thus the idea of a 'better life' after this one is calming. I'll enjoy the permanent sleep 6 feet under, or scattered somewhere... don't know where yet. I don't care. I'm going to enjoy this life as much as possible, because there isn't another chance.

+

+

I said nothing about a formulated or organized religion though I said "a God" Don't confuse the two as they are 2 seperate things. I know MANY people that believe in "a God" but do not believe or belong to an organized religion

you need to separate the idea of church and god, or clarify what type of god you are referring to.
There are quite a few different examples of what god can mean in speech. For example, Einstein on many occasions talked about god, but he clarified one day stating he did not believe in a deity. He used god as a reference for nature and life in general, bound by the laws of the universe as we currently understand them. I believe you can classify Einstein relatively accurately as a pantheist. In this case, god isn't a living deity, but rather simply a way to encompass everything.
remove the biblical context of god, and the idea of miracles performed by some divine being, and it's simply a way to state that what we have now, is simply due to the laws of the universe and how they played in a role in the creation of everything we know, and that many events are simply natural or by chance, by still in accordance with the 'laws.
In that regard, I'd say I'm a pantheist, but I classify myself as an atheist. Many atheists are actually pantheists, but the idea of all these names creates confusion, specially when you start throwing around the god word. Atheism is just more direct, in that it means you don't believe any deity exists.

+

 

[bignateyk]

Originally posted by: shocksyde

Originally posted by: MBrown
God. It is impossible for this not to be.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahha

*inhale*

Ahhhhh-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

No, really, haha.

I'd wager that any answer you came up with would be just as laughable. Seriously. Care to explain the origen of the universe there champ?

No one will EVER be able to answer that question. Ever. The human brain will never be capable of understanding its own existence. Ever. I don't care how many theories people come up with, noone will ever be able to anwer that question.

Everything was a single point before the bing bang? Where did that single point come from? Something can't come from nothing. Where did that catylist come from?

In conclusion, you're an idiot.

 

[mugs]

Explosives.

 

[Homerboy]

But things such as astronomy and the development and growth of the universe can be observed. We can see physical proof.
With Supreme Beings, we have no physical proof. We have stories, that are thousands of years old and people believe in them and think that the English version they read is the exact word of God. They fail to comprehend that religion was and is used to control people and the scriptures and writing while having some truth in them, have been, not might have been, but HAVE BEEN altered since the original writings.
People don't understand that before the printing press, people hand wrote copies of books. The people that did this copying were typically monks or other clergy, and the accuracy of their copies is soley based on their credibility to not change things to their own liking.
Like in todays age we have several "branches" of Christianity. There's Catholics, Mormons, Methodists, ect. Who's correct?

Now, when I look in the night sky, I can confirm that there are planets other than Earth, There are stars other than the Sun. There are galaxies other than our own.
It's fact vs fiction.

Umm... yes I never argued against those things did I? I'm saying how can people believe and accept that the Big Bang just "happened" all on its own and that everything always is and will be but then tell people that believe in a God that they are nuts. That "they can't wrap their head around some deity that 'always has been'"

That's the argument I don't get and that I wish people would concede... that it's not that amazingly different to believe in one or the other.

 

[Homerboy]

you need to separate the idea of church and god, or clarify what type of god you are referring to.
There are quite a few different examples of what god can mean in speech. For example, Einstein on many occasions talked about god, but he clarified one day stating he did not believe in a deity. He used god as a reference for nature and life in general, bound by the laws of the universe as we currently understand them. I believe you can classify Einstein relatively accurately as a pantheist. In this case, god isn't a living deity, but rather simply a way to encompass everything.
remove the biblical context of god, and the idea of miracles performed by some divine being, and it's simply a way to state that what we have now, is simply due to the laws of the universe and how they played in a role in the creation of everything we know, and that many events are simply natural or by chance, by still in accordance with the 'laws.
In that regard, I'd say I'm a pantheist, but I classify myself as an atheist. Many atheists are actually pantheists, but the idea of all these names creates confusion, specially when you start throwing around the god word. Atheism is just more direct, in that it means you don't believe any deity exists.

+

I don't need to separate church from God... I've made that separation. People (including you in this example) that if you say "God" you are referring to a religion of some nature. As you pointed out and I completely agree with, that's a problem in and of iteself.

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: AmpedSilence
but that's just a recursive argument; then the question that follows, what was there before that universe, and that one, and that one, etc. Basically before the cycles of epanding and contracting started, what was there?

That part I didn't get into because there aren't even any reasonable ways to make a theory about it, like many others have said already. I, and everyone else, doesn't know.

 

[BrokenVisage]

People who say the Universe is expanding and collapsing are skirting the question of origin. I would totally subscribe to the notion of a contracting Universe if it touched on when the first contraction happened and why/how. The question is, as the Universe is expanding right now is it creating any kind of mass? If not, I find it hard to believe the Universe could collapse on itself at a certain point. But if it IS somehow creating mass as it expands then that's a whole new dynamic that raises more questions then it answers. Ultimately I think some things just can't be explained from our point of view (a human perspective) this perhaps being one of them. We can't even explain dark matter yet, but the good news is that I think if we keep discovering new pieces of the origin puzzle we can come to a unified conclusion in time. Sure, evangelicalists will always play the "creator card" but I too think that's the easy way out. "God" may have kick-started a Big Bang, but it still more than likely had to have some scientific vernacular to it no matter what. It's still to early for me though, can't pour out all the thoughts I have on this, but they could fill a light-year wide void if I went on.