The biggest mistake in geopolitics - 20th century

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: JS80
The real mistake was letting there be any remnants of Islam after Israel won in 1948. They should have completely expelled the palestinians and destroyed the Dome of the Rock and built the new temple there. The Israelis were too optimistic in co-existence.

Israel would not exist today if it did that

Really??? And what would have happened to change the fact that they do exist?

Would all their neighbors teamed up on them and try to destroy them?? Oh wait, they tried that and failed...

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: JS80
The real mistake was letting there be any remnants of Islam after Israel won in 1948. They should have completely expelled the palestinians and destroyed the Dome of the Rock and built the new temple there. The Israelis were too optimistic in co-existence.

Israel would not exist today if it did that

Really??? And what would have happened to change the fact that they do exist?

Would all their neighbors teamed up on them and try to destroy them?? Oh wait, they tried that and failed...

You're an idiot.
Israel cannot take on the entire Muslim world.. it is not even capable of taking on the entire M.E if they united.

What would cause them all to unite? Israel attacking their religion.

The Muslims inside Israel would cause so much destruction that Israel would fall from within.

Use your brain. I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Control of Jerusalem should belong to the UN.

Yeah right, like that would work :laugh:

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Aimster

Control of Jerusalem should belong to the UN.

Yeah right, like that would work :laugh:

Sure it could work. First thing we need to fix is the UN.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?

This ought to be good...

 

[ProfJohn]

I'm an idiot??

You seem to forget history in which Israel was attacked multiple times by ALL of its neighbors working together and each time Israel kicked their butts.

1948 Arab?Israeli War, Six day war, and the Yom Kippur War were all wars in which Egypt, Syria, Jordan AND Iraq all worked together and in each case they got their asses kicked. In most of these wars the Israelis were out numbered two to one and were still able to inflict hugely lopsided casualties.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?

This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Aimster

Control of Jerusalem should belong to the UN.

Yeah right, like that would work :laugh:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No control of Jerusalem was given to Israel in the original 1948 mandate.
That was a later conquest in the later 1967 war, and as such, under UN rules, something Israel can't legitimately retain.

 

[ProfJohn]

Turkey... one of the few mid-east countries with a secular government and military as well.

I think Turkey was motived by the fear of Russia more than any thing else.

 

[Farang]

Well if you think it was idiotic then you're blaming the Zionists. Even Herzl was originally willing to settle in Argentina or some other place, and pay a handsome sum to the host country for the land, but later activists would settle for nothing but Palestine. I agree that if we had a time machine we should've just moved the Jews someplace else. This natural homeland idea is sort of bogus, if we're going to get in the business of relocating everyone to their natural homeland then let's give Native Americans control of our government here. Fact is once a generation passes its all moot, the European Jews were European and the Palestinians weren't occupiers they were Palestinians and nobody had a right to kick them out.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I'm an idiot??

You seem to forget history in which Israel was attacked multiple times by ALL of its neighbors working together and each time Israel kicked their butts.

1948 Arab?Israeli War, Six day war, and the Yom Kippur War were all wars in which Egypt, Syria, Jordan AND Iraq all worked together and in each case they got their asses kicked. In most of these wars the Israelis were out numbered two to one and were still able to inflict hugely lopsided casualties.

You do not destroy a symbol of religion. If you disagree with me then I guess Israel is stupid for not doing it. Israel is smart and not stupid as you would suggest. They didn't do it because that's the retarded-stupid thing to do.

 

[tvarad]

Put this in a wider historical perspective. At about the same time that the partition of Palestine took place, innumerable colonial era lands were hewed and cleaved in a similar manner to carve out countries, some of which had never even existed historically. Most of Africa and Asia was shaped this way. In fact, many Arab and Muslim countries themselves have not accepted these borders.

So, to claim that the creation of a state about as large as a large metropolitan U.S. city in such a massive exercise was somehow a travesty is disingenuous.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?
This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

I will certainly not argue with the fact that each of those countries has given us tremendous aid over the years -- I've been very proud to work with some fine operators from both countries. However, each of their efforts pales in comparison to the contributions made by Israel, every day, in our global fight against terrorists.

Like I said, of the top 50 or so countries who are actively in this fight, Israel is easily in the top five... easily!

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?
This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

I will certainly not argue with the fact that each of those countries has given us tremendous aid over the years -- I've been very proud to work with some fine operators from both countries over the years. However, each of their efforts pales in comparison to the contributions made by Israel, every day, in our global fight against terrorists.

Like I said, of the top 50 or so countries who are actively in this fight, Israel is easily in the top five... easily!

Israel is helping the U.S fight terrorist that are a threat to the U.S?
Interesting ....

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?
This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

I will certainly not argue with the fact that each of those countries has given us tremendous aid over the years -- I've been very proud to work with some fine operators from both countries over the years. However, each of their efforts pales in comparison to the contributions made by Israel, every day, in our global fight against terrorists.

Like I said, of the top 50 or so countries who are actively in this fight, Israel is easily in the top five... easily!

Israel is helping the U.S fight terrorist that are a threat to the U.S?
Interesting ....

Israel's fight -- ours -- is Global.

We share many of the same enemies and threats...

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?
This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

I will certainly not argue with the fact that each of those countries has given us tremendous aid over the years -- I've been very proud to work with some fine operators from both countries over the years. However, each of their efforts pales in comparison to the contributions made by Israel, every day, in our global fight against terrorists.

Like I said, of the top 50 or so countries who are actively in this fight, Israel is easily in the top five... easily!

Israel is helping the U.S fight terrorist that are a threat to the U.S?
Interesting ....

Israel's fight -- ours -- is Global.

We share many of the same enemies and threats...

Many of the same desires for more power and wealth that fit under the war on terror' marketing label, too.

No matter what political reasons are given for war, the underlying reason is always economic.

~A. J. P. Taylor

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?
This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

I will certainly not argue with the fact that each of those countries has given us tremendous aid over the years -- I've been very proud to work with some fine operators from both countries over the years. However, each of their efforts pales in comparison to the contributions made by Israel, every day, in our global fight against terrorists.

Like I said, of the top 50 or so countries who are actively in this fight, Israel is easily in the top five... easily!

Israel is helping the U.S fight terrorist that are a threat to the U.S?
Interesting ....

Israel's fight -- ours -- is Global.

We share many of the same enemies and threats...

Israel is fighting people that attacked them.
It is not going after groups that pose a threat to the U.S.

If those groups didn't attack Israel then Israel wouldn't have touched them.

Turkey and Kuwait have been assisting the U.S for many years. Israel has never assisted the U.S once. Therefore, there is NO way Israel is the best ally the U.S has in the M.E.

The U.S is fighting terrorist that are a threat to the U.S
U.S doesn't give a sh!t about terrorist that don't pose a threat to us. It's not our problem. We are not the world police.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: palehorse
Israel's fight -- ours -- is Global.

We share many of the same enemies and threats...

Many of the same desires for more power and wealth that fit under the war on terror' marketing label, too.

I actually fight the battles.. you don't. The threats and our enemies are very -- VERY -- real.

Whatever the overarching reasons for the "war," the contributions made in the actual battles by our own forces, and those of our allies, should never be diminished. For that reason, my point regarding Israel and its soldiers stands -- they are a great ally of the United States... and others.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is fighting people that attacked them.
It is not going after groups that pose a threat to the U.S.

When? today? in Gaza? on CNN?!?

If you think that is the only fight that the Israelis are in, then you're an even bigger idiot than I originally thought.

If those groups didn't attack Israel then Israel wouldn't have touched them.

Do you think Hamas' efforts, networks, and logistics end at the Israeli or Gaza borders? Do you think Hamas is Israel's only problem?

Once again, that's ignorance.

Turkey and Kuwait have been assisting the U.S for many years. Israel has never assisted the U.S once. Therefore, there is NO way Israel is the best ally the U.S has in the M.E.

LOL... wow... just... wow.

You're living in the dark man.

The U.S is fighting terrorist that are a threat to the U.S
U.S doesn't give a sh!t about terrorist that don't pose a threat to us. It's not our problem. We are not the world police.

Ever heard of the The Global Jihad? Well, I've got news for you: it's real. You couldn't be more wrong than you are... the U.S. is very much concerned about every terrorist group on the planet. Interestingly enough, most of which have both the U.S. and Israel on their hit-lists. Imagine that...

You were correct about one thing though. We are not the world police... but, we are part of a team of said police -- a team that definitely includes the Israelis.

You're clueless. Maybe it's better that way...

 

[Zebo]

The Biggest Mistake is modern warfare rules after WWII which prevents conflict resolution. e.g. just war theory -1954 Hague Convention - or the application of earlier Hague and Geneva rules.

If we played by same rules in WWII the Nazi's would still be in charge in Germany and Emperor In Japan. No fire bombing of German cities or Nuking Japanese would be allowed. No food or medicine embargos, etc.

It's also why we have not won a war since WWII.

I would never join a military which plays by modern rules it's a danger to troops and irresponsible spending. In fact I admire the Mujahideen for ignoring them. They play to win the west doesn't..

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: palehorse

The U.S is fighting terrorist that are a threat to the U.S
U.S doesn't give a sh!t about terrorist that don't pose a threat to us. It's not our problem. We are not the world police.

Ever heard of the The Global Jihad? Well, I've got news for you: it's real. You couldn't be more wrong than you are... the U.S. is very much concerned about every terrorist group on the planet. Interestingly enough, most of which have both the U.S. and Israel on their hit-lists. Imagine that...

You were correct about one thing though. We are not the world police... but, we are part of a team of said police -- a team that definitely includes the Israelis.

You're clueless. Maybe it's better that way...

The Global Jihad? It's clear you adhere to the propaganda that people like the Clarion Group (Obsession, mailed before the election) spew.

Here's a little history lesson for you, palehorse, before I was born, all these terrorists and Jihadis were America's BUDDYS, fighting the "damn commies" in Afghanistan. Britain put the Shah in power, and we kissed his ass until the Iranian people were fed up with that shit, and then we left him out to dry when he got ousted. America's allies carved up the Middle East after WWI with no regard to actual cultural borders, and basically set up the clusterfuck that we're dealing with now.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: palehorse
Israel's fight -- ours -- is Global.

We share many of the same enemies and threats...

Many of the same desires for more power and wealth that fit under the war on terror' marketing label, too.

I actually fight the battles.. you don't.

And we're both proud we've made the right decision.

The threats and our enemies are very -- VERY -- real.

I don't think there's one broad brush to paint with here. Some threats are real. Others, like the homeless guys trumpted as a major terrorist ring, are not real threats.

My understanding is that most of the detainees in Guantanamo, most of the thousands rounded up in big sweeps o 'grab every guy of military age' or bought from wardlords who regularly sold people they wanted to get rid of for illegitimate reasons or just profit from are not 'real threats'.

And among the 'real threats', there are those who are threats we didn't ask for, and those we have creeated with mistaken policies.

Whatever the overarching reasons for the "war," the contributions made in the actual battles by our own forces, and those of our allies, should never be diminished. For that reason, my point regarding Israel and its soldiers stands -- they are a great ally of mine and the U.S.

The sacrifices are real. Then again, so are the sacrifices of the Nazi troops in WWII or many terrorists today. There are larger questions about the justness of the war.

Questions you have a dog in the fight about to justify your own support of violence, but which I can ask without any need to decide one way or the other.

To some extent, we may differ more on how to deal with some 'threats'. I seem more aware of how actions to support dictators (and you can go back further to western support for enlarging and empowering the radical religous groups you are opposing) create problems for us. I've seen your limited options for dealing with things, 'kill them disarm them or expel them'. I see more options that are peaceful and better for everyone, that involve ending some wrongs done to people that you don't acknowledge much that I see.

For example, the history of the US and Iran going back to the CIA ending of democracy and installing of the Shah, giving them huge legitimate reasons to be our enemy, has been discussed here many times, but I don't recall you one time ever offering your agreement to those basic points. You only seem to see 'the enemy' and military options and ultimatums.

You seem to have the typical military outlook insofar as you intend to act with honor - and this is why you are fed a steady diet of honorable reasons why you are fighitng. You're not at all a knowing part of the 'ulterior motives' I discuss for war, but rather, arguably, a victim of the cover reasons, the pretenses and justifications, given to motivate the people who sacrifice so much for 'the cause' - and who are IMO in such a poor position to raise questions about the real purposes for the war.

Do you think Gen. Smedley Butler enjoyed saying the quote I've posted about what he discovered the 'real reasons' for wars he's led battles in were?

Much easier to not pay attention to that and stick to the noble cause. For you, at least, if not those killed and otherwise hurt.

It's al too easy, unfortunately, for well-intended people to do harm, manipulated.

Your first post, where you took no issue with the 'all Palastenians are valid targets' while objecting to the response about Israelis, spoke to the problem.

The only blood on my hands is from the taxes I pay - not from the weapon I use, or the ballot lever I pull for warmongers. You have a heavier burden you have chosen, a pool of blood that's near you every night you go to sleep, which you must justify. You have a lot of pressure to conclude that the people whose blood that is are evil and you had to kill them. That just might make you a little less than open to any other information.

My interest is in avoiding unnecessary, wrongful, violence. There are few resources for that side. The other side has a vast organization with trillions of dollars to back it.

If the most powerful military figure in the world in the last century, in his even more powerful position as President, in his farewell adddress to the nation could not influence policy away from the excesses of the vast military industry, it's not easy to do much against it. But we do what we can, and we all have the vote. And because you are someone who tries to follow honor, you can learn things. We'll see if you do. John Kerry once volunteered to kill for a bad cause - and came to lead opposition to the war.

You have some idea of moral duty, and that war can be wrong. That's something. And as you see your 'ally' JS80 say things you find abhorrent, you might ask more questions.

You might broaden your understanding of the real goal of the 'war on terror' to include reducing the Middle Eastern tyranny that feeds the violent resistance in terrorism.

You might come to consider 'social justice' a key and essential ally as the only alternative to endless violence, rather than only getting rid fo the 'current threat'.

 

[wwswimming]

the Jewish people have a home - the United States of America.

moving into a neighborhood and destroying 400 villages (and killing the civilian occupants of
those villages) is not a great way to make friends with the neighbors.

That's what Israel, backed by England and the US, did in 1948, as documented at
http://www.palestineremembered.com/

that was long before the Palestinians responded using the tactic of suicide bombers to kill
Israeli civilians.

so, the Palestinians & Israel have been in a state of war since about 1948.

one local's decription of the carnage
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...n/03/gaza-diary-israel

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: wwswimming
the Jewish people have a home - the United States of America.

moving into a neighborhood and destroying 400 villages (and killing the civilian occupants of
those villages) is not a great way to make friends with the neighbors.

That's what Israel, backed by England and the US, did in 1948, as documented at
http://www.palestineremembered.com/

that was long before the Palestinians responded using the tactic of suicide bombers to kill
Israeli civilians.

so, the Palestinians & Israel have been in a state of war since about 1948.

one local's decription of the carnage
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...n/03/gaza-diary-israel

Israel is a country, that is the fact on the ground. The Israelis are not going anywhere, they are willing to fight and die for their country. How many other Arab countries are willing to fight and die for the Palestinians? All the arguments for the removal of the Jews will not lead to peace, only war can resolve this issue. A war to destroy the state of Israel, that's what it will come down to, and Israel will use what ever means to defend itself, including nuclear weapons.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is not our strongest Ally in the M.E.

Who is then?
This ought to be good...

Turkey has done far more for the U.S than all of the M.E nations combined when it comes to military operations. Their air force is by far the most trained air force outside of the region flying missions for NATO.

Kuwait has gave us more AID than ALL M.E nations and continues to give us AID to this day.

I will certainly not argue with the fact that each of those countries has given us tremendous aid over the years -- I've been very proud to work with some fine operators from both countries over the years. However, each of their efforts pales in comparison to the contributions made by Israel, every day, in our global fight against terrorists.

Like I said, of the top 50 or so countries who are actively in this fight, Israel is easily in the top five... easily!

Israel is helping the U.S fight terrorist that are a threat to the U.S?
Interesting ....

Israel's fight -- ours -- is Global.

We share many of the same enemies and threats...

Just change the word "share" to CREATE and you will finally speak the truth