The biggest mistake in geopolitics - 20th century

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I know this:

Class A mandates consisted of the former Turkish provinces of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. These territories were considered sufficiently advanced that their provisional independence was recognized, though they were still subject to Allied administrative control until they were fully able to stand alone. Iraq and Palestine (including modern Jordan and Israel) were assigned to Great...

http://www.britannica.com/EBch...120113/Class-A-mandate

Which means nothing in regard to Palestine being established as an independent nation...

It means everything with regaurd to my previous statement:

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
No they didn't, just like the Syrians and the Iraqis didn't loose their land either, all three regions were considered Class A mandates, provisionally recognized as independent nations.

Which is quite different the outright "lost their land" you previously claimed, and apparently still cling to in spite of the facts.

Stop with the dishonesty and attempts at playing word games. "Provisionally indepenent" does not mean they were an independent nation. They were still under British rule and British authority and Britian, by virtue of being on the winning side in WW1, had the right to decide what they wanted to do with Palestine.

I know you are aware of this fact by you keep attempting to obfuscate by throwing out a term that truly has no meaning.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza aren't given that option because Israel is an ethnic nationalist state which already has far more Arabs than they want. Israel never anexed the Palestian territories, they simply colonize it under force of military occupation. Do you not understand this?

I understand that they...

So you do understand...
[/quote]
Yes. I understand that you want to overlook anything and everything relevant that you find doesn't suit your argument. You don't like a fact? Just snip it out and pretend it doesn't exist.

Besides that, my comment was about "names." Surely you know there are still Palestinians within Israel. Do you think they refer to themselves as Israelis, or as Palestinians? You were the one who claimed that names were "trivial." When called on it you try to move the goalposts completely and into a completely different angle that wasn't even part of the original discussion. I really don't care about your gripes concerning this situation so don't attempt to shoehorn them in where they don't really belong.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Yea, Israel will absorb 2 million Palestinians just around the time pigs begin orbiting earth. As a Palestinian, you must know the true meaning of giving these people Israeli IDs. There would be no more Israel, simply put. The politics in Israel since 94' have been dominated by the task of achieving complete separation, and basically no Israel wants them as part of Israel. But how do you give them a state knowing that they will use it to fire missiles at you?

A two state solution is impossible. Look at a map, here, I'll show you some:

Seperation Barrier
Hebron
Forbidden Roads

Israeli is far too deeply integrated and entrenched in the West Bank to just up and leave. That would mean displacing several hundred thousand Israeli settlers, or carving the West Bank up into about 1/3 of it's actual size as a "concession" the Palestinians. Add to that the fact that Palestinians want Jerusalem, and Israelis want Jerusalem, and you can't have both. Make them ONE PEOPLE, and suddenly everyone gets Jerusalem!

There would be no more Israel, simply put.

Gee, you mean to tell me that the fact that there are about 5 million Arabs in Israel + the Occupied Territories and 5.5 million Jews (including settlers) leads you to believe that a xenophobic, racist BY NATURE State can't exist on that land? Someone give this man an honorary doctorate, he's brilliant.

 

[SamurAchzar]

There's no state that I know of that's mixed between half Muslim Arabs, and half of any other ethnicity. Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit. Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

The Arab culture is a stranger to democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. They are not educated, their women are borderline captive. Israeli Arab coexist with Jews very marginally, and surely, they pose their own problems, but Israel leaves them alone and they leave Israel alone knowing that they are a minority.

And on top of that, once Jews lose their majority, they will have to look for yet another homeland. If the goal was to live as a minority, they could have stayed in Europe.

Edit: I just came back to edit the post to refer to Israelis being Xenophobic. I don't think there has ever been a religion as peaceful and welcoming to outside religions as the Jews. There has never been a Jewish missionary, Jews always lived - and live - inside foreign communities and countries and Israel has the largest Muslim minority among Western countries (that I know of). So how in hell did you decide to render Israelis xenophobic? Ever heard of a Jewish "Crusade"? Stop throwing shit into the air.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
There's no state that I know of that's mixed between half Muslim Arabs, and half of any other ethnicity. Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit. Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

The Arab culture is a stranger to democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. They are not educated, their women are borderline captive. Israeli Arab coexist with Jews very marginally, and surely, they pose their own problems, but Israel leaves them alone and they leave Israel alone knowing that they are a minority.

And on top of that, once Jews lose their majority, they will have to look for yet another homeland. If the goal was to live as a minority, they could have stayed in Europe.

Israel IS xenophobic. It is the JEWISH homeland, founded on the rubble of homes of Palestinians and currently oppressing whatever Palestinians remain. Your post is xenophobic in and of itself towards Arabs.

The Arab culture empowered by the West after WWII is a stranger to democracy, human rights, and freedom of speech. My father is a doctor, his brothers accountants and professors. My aunt is the "man of the house" back home. Some of them work construction under Jewish foremen with no concern as to how both parties pray at the end of the workday.

And on top of that, when they claimed 60% of the land of the mandate of Palestine, they comprised roughly 20% of the area's population. If it weren't for the mass state sponsored Aliyah, the Arabs would be in overwhelming majority right now.

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

There would be no more Israel, simply put.

Gee, you mean to tell me that the fact that there are about 5 million Arabs in Israel + the Occupied Territories and 5.5 million Jews (including settlers) leads you to believe that a xenophobic, racist BY NATURE State can't exist on that land? Someone give this man an honorary doctorate, he's brilliant.

It's just down-to-earth thinking. What you are suggesting is equivalent to a scenario in which the US absorbs the Mexican state with x3 times it's current population. You can figure that out by yourself; Add to that religious tensions and you have a recipe for setting Israel 50 years back in time.

Assuming that your numbers are up-to-date and considering the difference in birth rate between Jewish and Arab populations, that gap of 500K people will be overridden in a couple of years. The whole purpose of Israel is to be a homeland for the Jewish people and for that it must maintain Jewish majority at all cost. You call it a racist policy, I call it an axiom upon which the concept of Israel is based, for without it there is no reason for it to exist in the first place.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
There's no state that I know of that's mixed between half Muslim Arabs, and half of any other ethnicity. Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit. Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

The Arab culture is a stranger to democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. They are not educated, their women are borderline captive. Israeli Arab coexist with Jews very marginally, and surely, they pose their own problems, but Israel leaves them alone and they leave Israel alone knowing that they are a minority.

And on top of that, once Jews lose their majority, they will have to look for yet another homeland. If the goal was to live as a minority, they could have stayed in Europe.

Israel IS xenophobic. It is the JEWISH homeland, founded on the rubble of homes of Palestinians and currently oppressing whatever Palestinians remain. Your post is xenophobic in and of itself towards Arabs.

The Arab culture empowered by the West after WWII is a stranger to democracy, human rights, and freedom of speech. My father is a doctor, his brothers accountants and professors. My aunt is the "man of the house" back home. Some of them work construction under Jewish foremen with no concern as to how both parties pray at the end of the workday.

And on top of that, when they claimed 60% of the land of the mandate of Palestine, they comprised roughly 20% of the area's population. If it weren't for the mass state sponsored Aliyah, the Arabs would be in overwhelming majority right now.

So your family is the exception to the rule. The funny thing is that you can't blame Arabs for being overly smart too, as under Israeli rule they enjoy far better lives than under any alternative - let alone Hamas. Yet they kick the bucket and want to torch the parlor. Go figure.

Lets share a little secret with the guys here, eh? As an Arab, you must be aware to the concept of "Honor". That what drives Arabs as a collective. That's why they would never accept peace with the Israelis no matter how good the materialistic rewards are. The Honor of the Umma is above all, right?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

There would be no more Israel, simply put.

Gee, you mean to tell me that the fact that there are about 5 million Arabs in Israel + the Occupied Territories and 5.5 million Jews (including settlers) leads you to believe that a xenophobic, racist BY NATURE State can't exist on that land? Someone give this man an honorary doctorate, he's brilliant.

It's just down-to-earth thinking. What you are suggesting is equivalent to a scenario in which the US absorbs the Mexican state with x3 times it's current population. You can figure that out by yourself; Add to that religious tensions and you have a recipe for setting Israel 50 years back in time.

No, it's not. Mexico is an independent, sovereign nation, under every possible accepted definition of the word. Mexico has no right to the US. The US is not belligerent towards Mexico, nor do they persist in military operations there and continue to occupy their land. They also didn't kick out a bunch of "pre-Mexicans" from the current day US and trap them in smaller "Mexico" in order to form the US. Your argument is flawed in so many different ways.

Given the way they've been acting for the past 61 years, Israel might as well be set back 61 years in time.

Assuming that your numbers are up-to-date and considering the difference in birth rate between Jewish and Arab populations, that gap of 500K people will be overridden in a couple of years. The whole purpose of Israel is to be a homeland for the Jewish people and for that it must maintain Jewish majority at all cost. You call it a racist policy, I call it an axiom upon which the concept of Israel is based, for without it there is no reason for it to exist in the first place.

At what cost? To continue to persecute 4 million Arabs (not going to count the 1.375 million in Israel for this one) with economic sanctions, increasing restrictions on freedom of movement, and the never ending theft of their land under the guise of "state land"? THAT is racist and xenophobic. Sounds like everyone would be better off with a single democratic secular state.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
So your family is the exception to the rule. The funny thing is that you can't blame Arabs for being overly smart too, as under Israeli rule they enjoy far better lives than under any alternative - let alone Hamas. Yet they kick the bucket and want to torch the parlor. Go figure.

Lets share a little secret with the guys here, eh? As an Arab, you must be aware to the concept of "Honor". That what drives Arabs as a collective. That's why they would never accept peace with the Israelis no matter how good the materialistic rewards are. The Honor of the Umma is above all, right?

My family isn't the exception to the rule, this is what I have seen. Most Arab Israelis I know are extremely grateful for that, since their buddies over the fence are in a perpetual state of butthurt. FWIW, my family petitioned unsuccessfully for Jerusalem citizenship, since our entire plot of land is inside the boundaries of the municipality and has been in the same condition since they took refuge there in 1948. Who cares if we'd have to pay arnona, and have to pay for the entire legal process to apply for Jerusalem citizenship only to finally get declined during the last stage, if it meant "freedom."

People do not appreciate being caged like animals, treat them like human beings, and the barbarians will be that much easier to find and destroy. And by barbarians, I mean crazies like Hamas and crazies like Kach/Kahanists as well.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Do you see Jews living as a minority under Arabs?
Do you see any nation with Western values living as a minority under Arabs? Is there a precedent to this somewhere?

Kach is a terrorist organization under Israeli rule and treated as such.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
So your family is the exception to the rule. The funny thing is that you can't blame Arabs for being overly smart too, as under Israeli rule they enjoy far better lives than under any alternative - let alone Hamas. Yet they kick the bucket and want to torch the parlor. Go figure.

Lets share a little secret with the guys here, eh? As an Arab, you must be aware to the concept of "Honor". That what drives Arabs as a collective. That's why they would never accept peace with the Israelis no matter how good the materialistic rewards are. The Honor of the Umma is above all, right?

My family isn't the exception to the rule, this is what I have seen. Most Arab Israelis I know are extremely grateful for that, since their buddies over the fence are in a perpetual state of butthurt. FWIW, my family petitioned unsuccessfully for Jerusalem citizenship, since our entire plot of land is inside the boundaries of the municipality and has been in the same condition since they took refuge there in 1948. Who cares if we'd have to pay arnona, and have to pay for the entire legal process to apply for Jerusalem citizenship only to finally get declined during the last stage, if it meant "freedom."

People do not appreciate being caged like animals, treat them like human beings, and the barbarians will be that much easier to find and destroy. And by barbarians, I mean crazies like Hamas and crazies like Kach/Kahanists as well.

Forget the ones over the fence, compare their lives with those of Egyptians and Syrians. Who enjoys democracy, freedom of speech and economical prosperity more? Or maybe these things are just insignificant in their world, and all that matters is to have Muslims in power?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
So your family is the exception to the rule. The funny thing is that you can't blame Arabs for being overly smart too, as under Israeli rule they enjoy far better lives than under any alternative - let alone Hamas. Yet they kick the bucket and want to torch the parlor. Go figure.

Lets share a little secret with the guys here, eh? As an Arab, you must be aware to the concept of "Honor". That what drives Arabs as a collective. That's why they would never accept peace with the Israelis no matter how good the materialistic rewards are. The Honor of the Umma is above all, right?

My family isn't the exception to the rule, this is what I have seen. Most Arab Israelis I know are extremely grateful for that, since their buddies over the fence are in a perpetual state of butthurt. FWIW, my family petitioned unsuccessfully for Jerusalem citizenship, since our entire plot of land is inside the boundaries of the municipality and has been in the same condition since they took refuge there in 1948. Who cares if we'd have to pay arnona, and have to pay for the entire legal process to apply for Jerusalem citizenship only to finally get declined during the last stage, if it meant "freedom."

People do not appreciate being caged like animals, treat them like human beings, and the barbarians will be that much easier to find and destroy. And by barbarians, I mean crazies like Hamas and crazies like Kach/Kahanists as well.

Forget the ones over the fence, compare their lives with those of Egyptians and Syrians. Who enjoys democracy, freedom of speech and economical prosperity more? Or maybe these things are just insignificant in their world, and all that matters is to have Muslims in power?

The leadership of the Middle East are the people I despise there most. If I were to attempt a discussion of Egyptian or Syrian politics it would be quickly reduced to a violent stream of trilingual profanities. Don't get me started on the "Family of Saud" or the """Hashemite""" (extra air quotes for them) rulers of Jordan.

God BLESS America, I fucking love it here. I can shout "FUCK BUSH" from my rooftop if I deem it enjoyable; in Jordan 9 out of 10 men on the street are "mukhabarat" (~= FBI), the last guy is a cop. They have no freedom of speech. Their governments are in power due to the borders drawn with no regard to actual cultural borders by the West and the allies of the West who were appointed to lead there.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Stop with the dishonesty and attempts at playing word games. "Provisionally indepenent" does not mean they were an independent nation.

It means Palestine was "provisionally recognized as an independent nation", just as I claimed, and that their "provisional independence was recognized" as Britannica phrases it. What word games are you playing in your head to continue arguing against me for stating that fact?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Besides that, my comment was about "names." Surely you know there are still Palestinians within Israel. Do you think they refer to themselves as Israelis, or as Palestinians?

It isn't a matter of speculation, I know some call themselves Palestinian and others call themselves Israelis. I also know that the Israeli government officially refers to them as Israel-Arabs and have built a deep and systematic discrimination against them as one could only expect from an ethic nationalist state. Furthermore, I know that the Arabs in the West Bank are not given the option of Israel citizenship; a fact which your previous comments suggesting it was their option flagrantly ignores, and you continue to show no interest in acknowledging.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
So your family is the exception to the rule. The funny thing is that you can't blame Arabs for being overly smart too, as under Israeli rule they enjoy far better lives than under any alternative - let alone Hamas. Yet they kick the bucket and want to torch the parlor. Go figure.

Lets share a little secret with the guys here, eh? As an Arab, you must be aware to the concept of "Honor". That what drives Arabs as a collective. That's why they would never accept peace with the Israelis no matter how good the materialistic rewards are. The Honor of the Umma is above all, right?

My family isn't the exception to the rule, this is what I have seen. Most Arab Israelis I know are extremely grateful for that, since their buddies over the fence are in a perpetual state of butthurt. FWIW, my family petitioned unsuccessfully for Jerusalem citizenship, since our entire plot of land is inside the boundaries of the municipality and has been in the same condition since they took refuge there in 1948. Who cares if we'd have to pay arnona, and have to pay for the entire legal process to apply for Jerusalem citizenship only to finally get declined during the last stage, if it meant "freedom."

People do not appreciate being caged like animals, treat them like human beings, and the barbarians will be that much easier to find and destroy. And by barbarians, I mean crazies like Hamas and crazies like Kach/Kahanists as well.

Forget the ones over the fence, compare their lives with those of Egyptians and Syrians. Who enjoys democracy, freedom of speech and economical prosperity more? Or maybe these things are just insignificant in their world, and all that matters is to have Muslims in power?

The leadership of the Middle East are the people I despise there most. If I were to attempt a discussion of Egyptian or Syrian politics it would be quickly reduced to a violent stream of trilingual profanities. Don't get me started on the "Family of Saud" or the """Hashemite""" (extra air quotes for them) rulers of Jordan.

God BLESS America, I fucking love it here. I can shout "FUCK BUSH" from my rooftop if I deem it enjoyable; in Jordan 9 out of 10 men on the street are "mukhabarat" (~= FBI), the last guy is a cop. They have no freedom of speech. Their governments are in power due to the borders drawn with no regard to actual cultural borders by the West and the allies of the West who were appointed to lead there.

Ok, lets assume for a moment that these leaders are solely the fault of the West. When Bashar Assad falls from throne, who'll inherit him? How about Mubarak? Saddam? We'll see those tyrants replaced with Taliban style rulers. Look at the Muslim Brothers in Egypt.

The Arab world will have a renaissance one day, but that is at least 30 years away.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
There's no state that I know of that's mixed between half Muslim Arabs, and half of any other ethnicity. Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit. Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

The Arab culture is a stranger to democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. They are not educated, their women are borderline captive. Israeli Arab coexist with Jews very marginally, and surely, they pose their own problems, but Israel leaves them alone and they leave Israel alone knowing that they are a minority.

And on top of that, once Jews lose their majority, they will have to look for yet another homeland. If the goal was to live as a minority, they could have stayed in Europe.

Edit: I just came back to edit the post to refer to Israelis being Xenophobic. I don't think there has ever been a religion as peaceful and welcoming to outside religions as the Jews. There has never been a Jewish missionary, Jews always lived - and live - inside foreign communities and countries and Israel has the largest Muslim minority among Western countries (that I know of). So how in hell did you decide to render Israelis xenophobic? Ever heard of a Jewish "Crusade"? Stop throwing shit into the air.

Abuse creates abusers. And while you refer to Jews always living among others as if they're some happy travellers, their history is largely of 'oppressed minority'.

The prejudice against Jews goes back millenia, and culminted in modern times with the Holocaust. If you don't think there can be a bit of paranoia about their one final homeland after all that in terms of telling people who want them gone to go screw themselves and use a heavy hand, you don't seen to understand.

We've also provided plenty of abuse for arabs and persians to turn them into abusers, too, including backing the very governments who oppress them, all for oil.

As I've mentioned before, even the 'radical sects' you can mention are in no small part built by the British when it was useful to create opposition for arab governments.

While there are some problems with arab culture, the solution is more justice and help than your simple condemnation; and there's no small amount of ignorance here in the wsst.

Just look at the wild-eyes freaking out over the Al Jazeera channel created for the west that we can't even get among 500 channels, largely created by BBS people.

It's not that it 'is filled with lies', it's that it's aimed at the arab market with their views and interests and biases, and that makes it of no interest here to most. That's sad.

So much for understnading them.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
It isn't a matter of speculation, I know some call themselves Palestinian and others call themselves Israelis. I also know that the Israeli government officially refers to them as Israel-Arabs and have built a deep and systematic discrimination against them as one could only expect from an ethic nationalist state. Furthermore, I know that the Arabs in the West Bank are not given the option of Israel citizenship; a fact which your previous comments suggesting it was their option flagrantly ignores, and you continue to show no interest in acknowledging.

Calling Israel "ethnic" is as stupid as it can get, as it is no more ethnic than the USA is ethnic for having a Christian majority. The composition of the Israeli public could not be more diverse - Jews from Russia, Europe, Arab countries, USA, wherever. So I don't know what "ethnicity" are you talking about, unless Judaism has become an ethnicity while I haven't noticed.
So you should probably get your terminology right.

Now, as for the discrimination of Israeli Arabs, could you please educate us with some example? Because for all that I know, that's a bilateral discrimination: the Israeli Arabs refrain from voting, avoid paying taxes, don't join the IDF and side with the sworn enemies of Israel on every conflict. In exchange, the general Jewish population dislikes them, but you'd hardly ever hear about an hate crime against Arabs, nor would you find any formal reference to discrimination. They get the same services from the country everyone else gets.

So do you have any factual info, or just hot air?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Ok, lets assume for a moment that these leaders are solely the fault of the West. When Bashar Assad falls from throne, who'll inherit him? How about Mubarak? Saddam? We'll see those tyrants replaced with Taliban style rulers. Look at the Muslim Brothers in Egypt.

The Arab world will have a renaissance one day, but that is at least 30 years away.

I wasn't implying it was the West's fault, per se, rather the West had a bigger part in creating the entire geo-political fuck up that is the modern day Middle East than most people know or are even willing to believe. When people bring up ME politics, I get frustrated and usually stop making sense.

Al Saud (the Family of Saud) and Wahabbism tried to root themselves in present-day Saudi Arabia and failed, TWICE. Nobody around them appreciated their bullshit, and when outside forces came to pound the shit out of them (ie. Pashas from Egypt, etc.) they found support from WITHIN Saudi Arabia, both times. They only succeeded in establishing their ass backwards "Islamic kingdom" with the aid of the West.

The Ba'ath party came into power in Iraq because of a revolt against the Hashemite rulers installed by the West. A similar revolt took place in Jordan, by the PLO, but it was squashed with the aid of the West. I can't speak for Syria because I know very little of their history.

The biggest mistake in geo-politics in history, not just the 20th century, is the creation of Soviet-supporting and West-supporting states by both parties. The Arab renaissance has already started, take a look at the Gulf (Dubai, etc.).

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
It isn't a matter of speculation, I know some call themselves Palestinian and others call themselves Israelis. I also know that the Israeli government officially refers to them as Israel-Arabs and have built a deep and systematic discrimination against them as one could only expect from an ethic nationalist state. Furthermore, I know that the Arabs in the West Bank are not given the option of Israel citizenship; a fact which your previous comments suggesting it was their option flagrantly ignores, and you continue to show no interest in acknowledging.

Calling Israel "ethnic" is as stupid as it can get, as it is no more ethnic than the USA is ethnic for having a Christian majority. The composition of the Israeli public could not be more diverse - Jews from Russia, Europe, Arab countries, USA, wherever. So I don't know what "ethnicity" are you talking about, unless Judaism has become an ethnicity while I haven't noticed.
So you should probably get your terminology right.

Now, as for the discrimination of Israeli Arabs, could you please educate us with some example? Because for all that I know, that's a bilateral discrimination: the Israeli Arabs refrain from voting, avoid paying taxes, don't join the IDF and side with the sworn enemies of Israel on every conflict. In exchange, the general Jewish population dislikes them, but you'd hardly ever hear about an hate crime against Arabs, nor would you find any formal reference to discrimination. They get the same services from the country everyone else gets.

So do you have any factual info, or just hot air?

Whoa now. Israel apologists like to use Jew as an ethnicity when it benefits them, and claim it's just a religion when it benefits them as well. In reality, Jew as an "ethnicity" truly ceased to exist when the Romans massacred a whole lot of them and the remaining Jewry mixed into European (Ashkenazi), Persian (Mizrahi), Spanish (Sephardi), and Arab culture, throughout time.

EDIT: You also don't add anything to his point that WB Arabs have the "option" to be treated like Israeli citizens. I got into a face to face argument with a diehard, Hillel Zionist who was INSISTING that as a Palestinian living in the West Bank (I was waving my ID around) I could run for the Knesset :roll:

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit.

Israel has strict inauguration laws for non-Jewish people to prevent anything close to that ever happening, and they don't even offer the Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and Gaza citizenship for that matter. Beyond that, there is rampant and government backed xenophobia against guest workers such as Chinese chefs:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...n_Israel#Guest_workers

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

Wow, this is a new low in your ongoing attempts to defend Israelis colonization of Palestinian land; you just effectively denied the Holocaust.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit.

Israel has strict inauguration laws for non-Jewish people to prevent anything close to that ever happening, and they don't even offer the Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and Gaza citizenship for that matter. Beyond that, there is rampant and government backed xenophobia against guest workers such as Chinese chefs:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...n_Israel#Guest_workers

And USA is xenophobic against Mexicans, then?

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

Wow, this is a new low in your ongoing attempts to defend Israelis colonization of Palestinian land; you just effectively denied the Holocaust.[/quote]

WTF? I did THAT?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Calling Israel "ethnic" is as stupid as it can get..

All "Jews" around the world are extended the right to citizenship by Israel, be they practitioners of Jewish religion or simply from a lineage which can be proven to have once did.

Are you attempting to deny this fact?


Regardless, it a fact, and it ethnic nationalism.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Now, as for the discrimination of Israeli Arabs, could you please educate us with some example?

http://letmegooglethatforyou.c...ation+israel-arabs&l=1

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Stop with the dishonesty and attempts at playing word games. "Provisionally indepenent" does not mean they were an independent nation.

It means Palestine was "provisionally recognized as an independent nation", just as I claimed, and that their "provisional independence was recognized" as Britannica phrases it. What word games are you playing in your head to continue arguing against me for stating that fact?

:roll:

Do you even comprehend that being deemd provisionally independent was no guarantee of independence in the long run? Being provisionally independent meant they were reliant on rofreing rule and those foreign rulers could change the rules at any time during the process because those foreign countries were afforded complete control of those countries until they decided otherwise. iow, the Palestinians lost control of their land. They ultimately had no authority whatsoever.

I don't even understand why I have to keep explaining this to you and it's getting frustrating trying to get it through to you. The only reason that Syria and Iraq got their land back is because the British and French gave it back to them by decree. The same did not happen with Palestine and being provisionally independent was no guarantee that it WOULD happen.

Are we clear yet or are you going to continue to twist words and insist they mean something that they DO NOT?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Besides that, my comment was about "names." Surely you know there are still Palestinians within Israel. Do you think they refer to themselves as Israelis, or as Palestinians?

It isn't a matter of speculation, I know some call themselves Palestinian and others call themselves Israelis. I also know that the Israeli government officially refers to them as Israel-Arabs and have built a deep and systematic discrimination against them as one could only expect from an ethic nationalist state. Furthermore, I know that the Arabs in the West Bank are not given the option of Israel citizenship; a fact which your previous comments suggesting it was their option flagrantly ignores, and you continue to show no interest in acknowledging.
[/quote]
Your imaginings and musings about what you think I said does not make it fact. I was making a comment about how names do matter, not about whether Palestinians can claim Israeli citizenship.

Your so bug-eyed about this issue though that you take off and run on tangents that people aren't even discussing.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Israel is not Xenophobic - you could bring in 10 million Christians and no one would care a little bit.

Israel has strict inauguration laws for non-Jewish people to prevent anything close to that ever happening, and they don't even offer the Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and Gaza citizenship for that matter. Beyond that, there is rampant and government backed xenophobia against guest workers such as Chinese chefs:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...n_Israel#Guest_workers

And USA is xenophobic against Mexicans, then?

The US government doesn't deport properly-visa guest workers for their employers misdeeds, and our courts certainly don't allow employers to require guest workers agree not to have sex with or marry American women.

Did you not even read the page? The information there is sourced with links at the bottom.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Jews are probably the champions of living among others, without interrupting or harassing anyone. And yet, when it comes to Arabs, it always seems more difficult, doesn't it.

Wow, this is a new low in your ongoing attempts to defend Israelis colonization of Palestinian land; you just effectively denied the Holocaust.

WTF? I did THAT?

Yes, you did, as it wasn't Arabs who purpetrated the Holocaust.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Do you even comprehend that being deemd provisionally independent was no guarantee of independence in the long run?:

I comprehend this:

Covenant of the League of Nations
Article 22

...

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

...

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/..._the_League_of_Nations

There is no "lost the land" in that, or anywhere else in the documents.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Your imaginings and musings about what you think I said does not make it fact.

What you said is:

So then why can't Palestinians refer to themselves as Israelis?

The answer to your question is; Israel has never even shown any intention of offering the vast majority of Palestinians any right to do so.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Do you even comprehend that being deemd provisionally independent was no guarantee of independence in the long run?:

I comprehend this:

Covenant of the League of Nations
Article 22

...

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

...

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/..._the_League_of_Nations

There is no "lost the land" in that, or anywhere else in the documents.

Sure there is. It's in the section that you continually omit:

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The Palestinian Territory became property of the British, just as it was property of the Ottoman Turks prviously. But you'd rather ignore that and play some game about how the covenant doesn't explicitly state that they lost their land. If you want to remain that ignorant about it and pretend, then there's nothing I can do for you.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Your imaginings and musings about what you think I said does not make it fact.

What you said is:

So then why can't Palestinians refer to themselves as Israelis?

The answer to your question is; Israel has never even shown any intention of offering the vast majority of Palestinians any right to do so.

More of your dishonesty by ommitting and ignoring?

Here's what I said:

So then why can't Palestinians refer to themselves as Israelis?

Apparently names are a pretty big deal. Don't ya think?

Notice that my focus was on "names?" My comment was a response to your statement that "Not everyone is so fixated on such trival things as names." I was pointing out that "names" are not as trivial as you tried to dismiss them as being. Get it yet or must we keep going around on this with your strawman attempt to interject something that I never put in there in the first place?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The Palestinian Territory became property of the British...

What you quoted says nothing of the sort.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Notice that my focus was on "names?" My comment was a response to your statement that "Not everyone is so fixated on such trival things as names."

I noticed your example of "Why can't Palestinians refer to themselves as Israelis?" doesn't support your claim.