The brits are in for a rough ride

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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,018
15,717
126
Service guarantees citizenship! Nevermind they are already citizens...
 
Last edited:

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,257
8,191
136
It seems to be becoming clear the "national service" proposal is a nonsense gimmick of a policy ("mandatory but not compulsory" - what?).

Just a sound-bite to try and appeal to what the Tories imagine is their core-vote - except I think they've misjudged it and are trying to appeal to what they dimly remember about elderly people in the 1970s - people who are mostly no longer with us.

Alf Garnett would be just short of 100 years old now. Getting on a bit even for a Tory voter.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,898
8,638
136
It seems to be becoming clear the "national service" proposal is a nonsense gimmick of a policy ("mandatory but not compulsory" - what?).

Just a sound-bite to try and appeal to what the Tories imagine is their core-vote - except I think they've misjudged it and are trying to appeal to what they dimly remember about elderly people in the 1970s - people who are mostly no longer with us.

Alf Garnett would be just short of 100 years old now. Getting on a bit even for a Tory voter.
Probably the only people in favour would be a certain segment of the telegraph readers. The forces would hate it, the NHS would hate it. I mean who wants to babysit a bunch of teenagers who don't want to be there?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,487
13,075
136
So. Nigel Farage is back to fuck more shit up? Putin approves. Of course he is running on an immigrant build the wall agenda...
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,988
10,159
136
So. Nigel Farage is back to fuck more shit up? Putin approves. Of course he is running on an immigrant build the wall agenda...

The immigrant topic would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and maddening. The tories of all people campaigned on net migration reductions, haven't achieved that despite fucking the UK in the ass repeatedly with Brexit and austerity, then along comes another election and they're campaigning on it again. Then "Labour" starts banging on about it as well!

How is it that they're still going on about this? You either want to build a country which is prospering and therefore will both require and attract labour from abroad, or you don't. Unless you believe you've come up with a perfect plan to home-grow a labour force which has been educated in ways to perfectly tailor for the economy's needs in every year regardless of the circumstances.

Literally the only thing the immigrant topic achieves in the long term is to erode trust in established parties and make the electorate go for an extremist candidate to "shake things up".
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,487
13,075
136
The immigrant topic would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and maddening. The tories of all people campaigned on net migration reductions, haven't achieved that despite fucking the UK in the ass repeatedly with Brexit and austerity, then along comes another election and they're campaigning on it again. Then "Labour" starts banging on about it as well!

How is it that they're still going on about this? You either want to build a country which is prospering and therefore will both require and attract labour from abroad, or you don't. Unless you believe you've come up with a perfect plan to home-grow a labour force which has been educated in ways to perfectly tailor for the economy's needs in every year regardless of the circumstances.

Literally the only thing the immigrant topic achieves in the long term is to erode trust in established parties and make the electorate go for an extremist candidate to "shake things up".
I suspect this is what is going on :


It's motherfuckers in power 100% in it for them selves. Not to serve. Not for a higher purpose. For interim pleasure. A society that has lost aim of what it's trying to achieve and is in a death spiral.

I guess Labour is banging on this issue cause polling is directing them to do it. That means it's a sentiment amongst the people. Where does that sentiment come from? Does UK have an analogue for Fox News? Something seems to be poisoning the minds of the brits.
 
Reactions: mikeymikec

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,487
13,075
136
GB News, The Daily Mail, The Daily Telegraph, The Daily Express, The Sun, to name a few.
So weaponization of the free press. I guess we have to rethink democracy in this new environment. Press/journalism needs some safe guards.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,898
8,638
136
The immigrant topic would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and maddening. The tories of all people campaigned on net migration reductions, haven't achieved that despite fucking the UK in the ass repeatedly with Brexit and austerity, then along comes another election and they're campaigning on it again. Then "Labour" starts banging on about it as well!

How is it that they're still going on about this? You either want to build a country which is prospering and therefore will both require and attract labour from abroad, or you don't. Unless you believe you've come up with a perfect plan to home-grow a labour force which has been educated in ways to perfectly tailor for the economy's needs in every year regardless of the circumstances.

Literally the only thing the immigrant topic achieves in the long term is to erode trust in established parties and make the electorate go for an extremist candidate to "shake things up".
It's in no ones political interests to solve the immigration "problem".
The Tories like a nice single issue that generates good soundbites and outrage in the daily mail and labour like to point out how ineffectual the Tories have been in a single issue that they claim to care about a lot!

I mean there probably is something that needs addressing (in 2022 something like 15% of the UK population were immigrants) but it needs a nuanced and sympathetic debate that absolutely isn't going to happen.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,257
8,191
136
GB News, The Daily Mail, The Daily Telegraph, The Daily Express, The Sun, to name a few.

The Telegraph seems to have become a pure propaganda sheet. At least judging from the Telegraph stories I see aggregated on Yahoo News (i.e. non-paywalled). Most of them are along the lines of "Why the Tories are great" and "Why Labour is dangerous and evil". It's always been a slightly-mad paper, but these days it just seems to peddle the line of whichever plutocrat currently owns it (it's gone through a succession of such owners), with no pretense at actual objective reporting.

They seem particularly fond of cherry picking individual polls to try and claim that the Tories are 'closing the gap' and then ascribing this perceived 'success' to whatever right-wing policy the Party has recently announced. Even while the averaged poll trend line shows no change.

There's also Talk TV (has that given up broadcast TV now and become internet-only?). LBC radio is mostly wall-to-wall Tories (though they do have their token star Liberal, James O'Brien).

The thought of O'Brien reminds me that aside from the politics there's the way every major journalist/media figure, seems to be privately-educated . Something that seems to apply to the liberal contingent as much as the right, though the right-wingers always do a good impersonation of a blokey 'man of the people', e.g. Nigel Farage or Nick Ferrari or Kelvin McKenzie- it's probably related to the way that Eton educated actors like Hugh Laurie or Damien Lewis or Dominic West are so good at paying an American doctor or soldiers or a tough-guy American cop on TV - to be convincingly 'ordinary' requires an elite education, and while some of them use the talent for good in the entertainment world, others...).

I'm not sure if LBC has a single presenter who _didn't_ go to a private school, out of the couple of dozen they have on roster (Yet the privately-educated make up only 7% of the population)

The deluge of right-wing propaganda from our media is just unrelenting. In particular, OfCom seems to have decided the rules don't apply to GBNews.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,898
8,638
136
I know that none of you are watching the UK election debate on the BBC but Farage just said (and I'll slightly paraphrase, but it is slightly) "I'm not racist but it is the fault of the black people"!
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,044
8,086
136
So weaponization of the free press. I guess we have to rethink democracy in this new environment. Press/journalism needs some safe guards.
That's a slippery slope. If anything, I'd suggest something needs to be done about social media - which isn't 'free press', but a festering sore on humanity.
I know that none of you are watching the UK election debate on the BBC but Farage just said (and I'll slightly paraphrase, but it is slightly) "I'm not racist but it is the fault of the black people"!
Good God. He and Trump must be buddies.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,257
8,191
136
I don't know who it is that the Tories are trying to appeal to with their monomaniacal fixation on immigration and/or asylum-seekers.

I mean, I wasn't, and still am not, a fan of the EU (I was an extremely luke-warm remain voter, mainly just irritated at being asked the question when I can't really work out what I think of it all - ideally, as far as I can tell, all of it, the EU, the UK, and the US, need to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom-up, as none of them, considered as political systems, are fit-for-purpose).

Maybe I'm an out-of-touch metropolitan elite liberal (as I regularly get accused of being on-line, invariably by people who are quite obviously massively better-off financially and in multiple other ways than I am), but I just have far more important priorities that I'd like to see something done about, than immigration numbers (though, granted, it would be nice if we could reject the small minority of convicted violent sex offenders and deranged terrorists and their ilk - the system doesn't seem to be very good at checking for that sort of thing...maybe that's deliberate, the better to bring the whole system into disrepute?).

I mean I've noticed changes in this city - successive waves of Eastern Europeans (Poles in particular - there was a time when the whole neighbourhood - that for most of my life had always been significantly South Asian - seemed to be suddenly full of slightly-alarming-skinhead-looking white guys, with tattoos and often with 'eagle' insignia on their clothing, that I only realised weren't traditional UK skinheads when I heard them speaking Polish...or maybe Lithuanian?), then there was a brief period of frequently hearing Greek or Spanish being spoken in the street in a way I hadn't previously. Suddenly there are shops full of Polish branded food.

But I can't see why I'm supposed to be particularly bothered by it - beyond a slight bemusement at how one notices these trends months before the slow-on-the-uptake-but-overexctable national press does - all it merits is a shrug.

(My own grandparents were a mix of South Asian, European Jewish, and Irish, this city has always been that way, because it was the hub of a vast exploitative global empire, so what else would one expect? Change is in the nature of the place)

I'm not saying there are no issues around how immigration is handled - it could probably be a bit better managed, like everything else in this country, but I just don't understand who it is who puts immigration, or even 'stopping the boats' at the top of their priority list.

Why is that treated as such an all-important issue? Is it coming from the bottom-up, i.e. I'm out-of-touch with the masses of voters out there who are seething with rage about immigration (for cultural reasons? experience of economic competition?), or is it top-down, being driven by our crappy plutocrat-controlled media (that relentlessly goes on about the issue)? I honestly don't know.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,608
34,399
136
I don't know who it is that the Tories are trying to appeal to with their monomaniacal fixation on immigration and/or asylum-seekers.

I mean, I wasn't, and still am not, a fan of the EU (I was an extremely luke-warm remain voter, mainly just irritated at being asked the question when I can't really work out what I think of it all - ideally, as far as I can tell, all of it, the EU, the UK, and the US, need to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom-up, as none of them, considered as political systems, are fit-for-purpose).

Maybe I'm an out-of-touch metropolitan elite liberal (as I regularly get accused of being on-line, invariably by people who are quite obviously massively better-off financially and in multiple other ways than I am), but I just have far more important priorities that I'd like to see something done about, than immigration numbers (though, granted, it would be nice if we could reject the small minority of convicted violent sex offenders and deranged terrorists and their ilk - the system doesn't seem to be very good at checking for that sort of thing...maybe that's deliberate, the better to bring the whole system into disrepute?).

I mean I've noticed changes in this city - successive waves of Eastern Europeans (Poles in particular - there was a time when the whole neighbourhood - that for most of my life had always been significantly South Asian - seemed to be suddenly full of slightly-alarming-skinhead-looking white guys, with tattoos and often with 'eagle' insignia on their clothing, that I only realised weren't traditional UK skinheads when I heard them speaking Polish...or maybe Lithuanian?), then there was a brief period of frequently hearing Greek or Spanish being spoken in the street in a way I hadn't previously. Suddenly there are shops full of Polish branded food.

But I can't see why I'm supposed to be particularly bothered by it - beyond a slight bemusement at how one notices these trends months before the slow-on-the-uptake-but-overexctable national press does - all it merits is a shrug.

(My own grandparents were a mix of South Asian, European Jewish, and Irish, this city has always been that way, because it was the hub of a vast exploitative global empire, so what else would one expect? Change is in the nature of the place)

I'm not saying there are no issues around how immigration is handled - it could probably be a bit better managed, like everything else in this country, but I just don't understand who it is who puts immigration, or even 'stopping the boats' at the top of their priority list.

Why is that treated as such an all-important issue? Is it coming from the bottom-up, i.e. I'm out-of-touch with the masses of voters out there who are seething with rage about immigration (for cultural reasons? experience of economic competition?), or is it top-down, being driven by our crappy plutocrat-controlled media (that relentlessly goes on about the issue)? I honestly don't know.

From my perch over in the US it looks like immigrants are scapegoated by the Tories as the source of all the country's problems despite it actually being them. It's been so effective even Labor has basically had to adopt many similar positions.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,332
6,968
136
From my perch over in the US it looks like immigrants are scapegoated by the Tories as the source of all the country's problems despite it actually being them. It's been so effective even Labor has basically had to adopt many similar positions.

And so will the dems over here!

Don't kid yourself..

The whole migrant crisis has turned very pro-dem people into wondering if it should support republicans..

The moment a Dem goes anti-immigration they'll have good support.. like the left in Europe.. Sweden particularly turning around on migrants and diversity.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,608
34,399
136
And so will the dems over here!

Don't kid yourself..

The whole migrant crisis has turned very pro-dem people into wondering if it should support republicans..

The moment a Dem goes anti-immigration they'll have good support.. like the left in Europe.. Sweden particularly turning around on migrants and diversity.

Immigration an issue in America? Never happened before lol.

Dem voters are generally more capable of discerning between the migrant situation and immigration overall. Rs want to totally collapse all legal immigration.

Anyway I'll take our economic recovery over UK/EU's any day. Part of that is owed to the fact that many many many people want to come here even if we don't entirely like how they're doing it.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,257
8,191
136
Really wonder what will happen to the Tory Party if their dire opinion polling turns out to be accurate. If they end up with barely 100 seats they won't be the same party any more. They'll tack right-ward - to try and recapture Reform voters - both out of electoral calculation and because it'll be largely the hard-right figures in the party who will be left as MPs.

Paradoxically, what's left will also be a much more ethnically/racially diverse party. It might end up as the less-white faction of the far-right, united with the white far right only by a shared dislike of Muslims.


Between that and the question of what will happen after Trump is sentenced (and if he could win anyway, and if so what will that mean for Ukraine and for Putin), these are interesting times.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,898
8,638
136
Really wonder what will happen to the Tory Party if their dire opinion polling turns out to be accurate. If they end up with barely 100 seats they won't be the same party any more. They'll tack right-ward - to try and recapture Reform voters - both out of electoral calculation and because it'll be largely the hard-right figures in the party who will be left as MPs.
Latest electoral calculus is hilarious.



The Tories really need to move to the centre, that's where the votes are. That's what Labours learnt.
Tbh the centrist bit of the conservative and labour parties should split off and make their own party. That would leave a viable left wing option and a right wing full of the wing nuts from reform and the far right of the Tories.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,044
8,086
136
Ask Farage where is the 300M that UK is no longer sending to EU every week.
That was such a red herring. Just for an emotional twist of the dagger while betraying the best interests of his own country.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,487
13,075
136
I dont understand how characters like Farage gets to strut around like nothing. In the aftermath of WW2 he would have been dangling from a lightpost three seconds flat. Fucking good people need to wake the fuck up. WAKE UP.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,044
8,086
136
I dont understand how characters like Farage gets to strut around like nothing. In the aftermath of WW2 he would have been dangling from a lightpost three seconds flat. Fucking good people need to wake the fuck up. WAKE UP.
Well, Russian funding, deceptively until discovered, supporting Brexit supporters. The Russians have endlessly taken advantage of democracies to fragment the populations to take people's eye off the important issues. They really deserve a humiliating defeat in Ukraine for all the villainy they have perpetrated against wester democracies. And about 20 years of sanctions and restrictions from western powers.
 
Reactions: cytg111
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