The Chevy Bolt

[NutBucket]

We have the Model 3 Thread which diverged a bit into discussion about which "mass market" EV is best. I figured the Bolt should have it's own thread since it is the best direct competition the Model 3 has at this point.

Here's what we know as fact now (source):

1.) EPA rated range of 238 miles.
2.) MSRP of $37,500.
3.) Will be in showrooms this year

http://www.chevrolet.com/bolt-ev-electric-vehicle.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev

Discuss

 

[herm0016]

A car in currently in mass production and ready to sell vs what amounts to vapor ware at this point? In b4 tesla fanboys.

 

[Yuriman]

We know Tesla has denser and cheaper batteries. We can be pretty confident that the Model 3 will hit the market at roughly the price Tesla claims, even if it'll be a bit late.

I'm pretty excited for the Bolt, it's the first "inexpensive" EV that has the type of range to do a full day of driving - I regularly have 150-200 mile days. I'm almost certainly not going to buy one, but I'll be really pleased when they start hitting the junkyards from body damage, so I can steal the EV guts and convert another car.

 

[thescreensavers]

The Tesla looks much much better, the bolt looks like a "silly electric car", 9hrs for the bolt to charge is also meh, Tesla should hopefully use supercharger which is 30min to 80% which is really good.

My vote is tesla

 

[Pantoot]

A car in currently in mass production and ready to sell vs what amounts to vapor ware at this point? In b4 tesla fanboys.

I didn't see anywhere that they have set an 'on sale' date. Is it for sale?

 

[herm0016]

I didn't see anywhere that they have set an 'on sale' date. Is it for sale?

Preproduction has been underway for months and will be in dealers lots before the end of 2016. Recent leaked documents put the production date in October. Tesla has not even finished the factory to build the batteries for the model 3 and has not even shown the production models, just concepts.
Tesla has already stated that supercharger use is not included in the base price if the car, could be an add on or not available. We don't know yet.
Glass roof? Option. Tiny trunk that should have been a hatch? Standard. Horrible tesla reliability? Also standard. It is a looker though.

Gm has proven with the Volt they can and do build reliable ev powertrains with remarkable battery architecture that Is highly resistant to charge loss. Nearly the same stuff going into the bolt, and no 1000s of AA cells like tesla.

 

[WackyDan]

Meh... Bolt's biggest issue for many? It's made by GM.

AS for the Model 3 being able to use the super chargers? Yes, if you pay for the luxury to access them. Tesla has already made it clear there will be less "Free" on the Model 3 as compared to the S's and X.

 

[NutBucket]

Superchargers are great but for a daily driver who has time for that? IMHO most people charge at home overnight so in that sense it's slightly irrelevant.

 

[Demo24]

I think the bolt is highly promising given just how much range you do now get for that price. With the tax credit you're down to 30k, which a significant amount of people can afford and are willing to pay. Unfortunately it has come during some very cheap gas so people are a bit less interested in that savings.

One just has to look at the leaf to see how popular this can be (read it's already sold out and on waiting lists). Leafs, at least in my area, are everywhere and this more than doubles the range. And according to card and driver it's actually quite nice to drive (decent fly quick to 60 too, 6.5 secs) and has all the modern technologies and conveniences we expect.

For 99% of my driving this vehicle gets me there with the range, and I'd probably have to recharge just every couple of weeks. Unfortunately i have a new car and couldn't spare extra for just an electric commuter. Also still impractical for long journeys. However, if I did have to commute significant distances I'd be very interested.

What may be most interesting is what kind of incentives gm may eventually throw at it (lease rates, etc) which they are really good at and can really shift some vehicles. Would also like to see them make something larger, ala Malibu size.


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-first-drive-review

 

[NutBucket]

Anyone with half a brain knows gas prices won't stay low forever. IMHO people don't buy EVs for the money savings anyway.

 

[Yuriman]

Anyone with half a brain knows gas prices won't stay low forever. IMHO people don't buy EVs for the money savings anyway.

Not forever, no, they're going to slowly start creeping back up. I wouldn't expect more than 50-75 cents per year as an upper-end though. We still have a long way to go before $4 per gallon is back.

 

[NutBucket]

I predict it'll be back up to $4 next year. It's always low during election years.....

 

[Yuriman]

I predict it'll be back up to $4 next year. It's always low during election years.....

The main reason for gas prices dropping as they have is the fracking boom. Not many new fracking operations are opening now, so supply is holding relatively steady, while demand is growing slowly, as it always has. Gas prices are largely a function of supply and demand, especially with so much of our fuel being produced domestically now, so you shouldn't expect prices to rise more quickly than demand grows, or as supply drops when new regulation shuts down fracking operations (which isn't happening yet).

EDIT: I say this as someone who really wants to see fuel efficient vehicles and EVs on the road. I'd love to see a reason for gas guzzlers to be taken off the road, but it's wishful thinking.

 

[Brovane]

Superchargers are great but for a daily driver who has time for that? IMHO most people charge at home overnight so in that sense it's slightly irrelevant.

Yes the vast majority of charging will probably be done in a garage with a standard L2 charger. DC fast charging is to enable a EV to move from a person's or family 2nd car to a primary car by enabling long distance trips without having to wait 8+hours for a charge every 150-200 miles. That is a important current distinction with a Tesla, it can be a person's only car. In order for EV's to move forward they need to go from covering 95% of daily driving needs to 100%.

 

[NutBucket]

I guess the bright side is I can take a nap every few hours while supercharging....

 

[tweakmonkey]

the bolt looks like a "silly electric car"

It looks like a regular car to me, and not even a bad one. Like a nicer Honda Fit, Ford Fiesta or Nissan Versa.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

It looks like a regular car to me, and not even a bad one. Like a nicer Honda Fit, Ford Fiesta or Nissan Versa.

+1 and I like the emphasis they put on people and cargo capacity.

 

[Brovane]

I guess the bright side is I can take a nap every few hours while supercharging....

Some people grad a snack, bite to eat, take a short walk while they wait the 30-40 mins for a Supercharger to top up their battery after 2-3 hours of driving. The important thing is that a charging operation that would take 8-9 hours and reduce it to less than 60-mins. Their is a lot of difference between a 6.2kw-10kw L2 charging station and a direct DC Charger like a Tesla Supercharger that charges at the rate of 100kw-135kw. For example with a Tesla you can leave LA and drive a couple of hours to Barstow and stop at the Supercharger and top up your battery and continue all the way into Vegas with more than enough charge if you are going 80+mph and blasting the AC. Can you do this in a Bolt? No because their is no L3 charger in Barstow for a Bolt, CCS DCFC. The last one on the I-15 before you hit Vegas is at Victorville and is a single charger. Versus Tesla has 8-stall Supercharger in Barstow and another 8-stall Supercharger at Primm plus another 6-stall in Las Vegas. Want to continue on the I-15 with your Bolt, well guess what you are SOL. With the Tesla you can continue to St George Utah with another Supercharger location. Any L3 CCS DCFC in St George, Nope. The next L3 DC CCS DCFC charger on the I-15 between Las Vegas and Salt Lake City is in Salt Lake City, well that is real helpful isn't it? With the Tesla you got Superchargers in Beaver and Nephi Utah. Want to cross the rockies with your Bolt on the I-70? Well guess what the next L3 CCS DCFC charger on the I-70 is in Denver. The Tesla you got Superchargers at Richfield and Green River Utah, Grand Junction, Glenwood Springs and Silverthorne Colorado. Can't find a Tesla Supercharger? Well guess what with the proper adapter a Tesla can use a CHAdeMO L3 charger.

 

[NutBucket]

You're also comparing apples to oranges since the Tesla has been around for 3-4 years and the Bolt isn't even for sale yet. Was the supercharger infrastructure in place when the Model S launched?

 

[Pantoot]

You're also comparing apples to oranges since the Tesla has been around for 3-4 years and the Bolt isn't even for sale yet. Was the supercharger infrastructure in place when the Model S launched?

Has GM announced an initiative to build charging infrastructure?

Anyway, that is why I am excited about these low cost EV's, if there is demand the infrastructure will be built out. And, as it gets built out, these silly "But, I need to drive 300 miles every day" type arguments lose their weight.
As far as gas prices staying low, just look at the scaremongering headline on cnn right now: http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/16/investing/gasoline-prices-shortage-pipeline-leak/index.html

The more people that get off of gas the better.

 

[Brovane]

You're also comparing apples to oranges since the Tesla has been around for 3-4 years and the Bolt isn't even for sale yet. Was the supercharger infrastructure in place when the Model S launched?

You said earlier that Superchargers are "irrelevant" I am just pointing out that L3 Charging is very relevant if GM ever wants a EV to become a person's primary car and sell more than 100k EV's a year. Without that, the Bolt is just a second car for a consumer.

Of course the supercharger infrastructure wasn't in-place when the Model S production started, because this type of direct DC charging was just being introduced back in 2012. It was Nissan and Tesla that introduced direct DC charging to the market. GM doesn't have this excuse because the standards are already out their and DC charging has been in the market place for 4 years now. In 2012 Tesla was a tiny start-up company compared to GM. GM cannot do what a tiny startup company has been able to do?

From GM's point of view, charging infrastructure isn't their problem. You want to know why this is? Because GM doesn't want the Bolt to be your primary car. Their primary business is selling cars that are powered by Gas or Diesel and they don't want to impact this business to much. They still want a family to buy a ICE vehicle and then buy a Bolt.

 

[NutBucket]

Besides, with a 200+ mile range I would perfectly comfortable with an EV as a daily driver. I doubt we'll ever be a single car family anyway.

EDIT: I said they were slightly irrelevant since most folks don't need to drive that much on a daily (or even monthly) basis.

GM will sell whatever makes money. Currently, selling ICE powered vehicles makes them the most money. If the profits were there for EVs they would push those as hard as possible. But let's be honest, the profits simply aren't there (currently).

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

The problem with Tesla is that GM has much more experience with everything that customers want beyond the drive train. And even the drive trains will be moot points for these two cars. GM will kill Tesla in terms of giving consumers what they want.

 

[Brovane]

Besides, with a 200+ mile range I would perfectly comfortable with an EV as a daily driver. I doubt we'll ever be a single car family anyway.

EDIT: I said they were slightly irrelevant since most folks don't need to drive that much on a daily (or even monthly) basis.

GM will sell whatever makes money. Currently, selling ICE powered vehicles makes them the most money. If the profits were there for EVs they would push those as hard as possible. But let's be honest, the profits simply aren't there (currently).

For 95% of the people a 100-mile range EV is perfectly fine as a daily driver. Which means the Bolt isn't really competing against the Model-3 it is competing against cars like the Nissan Leaf. What use is paying more money for a 200-mile range EV if you never drive more than 60-miles in a day? You can buy a 2016 Nissan Leaf today with 100-mile range for $30k before any incentives.

GM pushes ICE powered cars because they have 100+ years of investment in ICE cars and a huge dealer network dependent on seller ICE cars that require regular maintenance. GM, it suppliers and dealers do not want to upset this apple cart.

 

[NutBucket]

The suppliers don't care necessarily but I absolutely agree the dealers care.

Range anxiety is definitely real even if it may be unfounded. My commute is about 36 miles but many of my coworkers are in the 50-100 mile range. Yes, you can charge at work (if we had them) but what if you had to leave early and got stuck in traffic? That kind of stuff.