The Chevy Bolt

[Midwayman]

What use is paying more money for a 200-mile range EV if you never drive more than 60-miles in a day? You can buy a 2016 Nissan Leaf today with 100-mile range for $30k before any incentives.

AC, Heat, Cold weather. Etc. All of which can have substantial impact on range. That 100 mile range is easy to get into the redzone even if you only drive 60 miles.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I have a 70 mile EV and commute 42 miles a day. No range anxiety yet but my drive is very predictable. Sometimes I make side trips to the store or my fabricator on the way in and always get home with 15-20 miles left. If it's 90 outside and I crank the ac I lose about 5-10% range but my EV has a way smaller battery than a Bolt or new leaf. If I'm stuck in traffic (which happens often) it barely effects the range. We'll see how the winters go but it doesn't freeze here. I use heated seats and wear gloves so I'll probably rarely use the blower/heater, so that won't effect much either. No plans to buy a 100-200 mile EV here but maybe in a few years when the market gets flooded with off lease Bolts.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Has anyone considered how they copied Tesla and used a bottom mount battery pack? I also see a new crime wave coming for the chop shops. In the old days thugs would leave your car on blocks and strip it down. In the future I see a flatbed truck with a fork lift like a sod truck coming to take that battery out from underneath once it's up on the blocks.

The other thing about the Bolt, besides it being just plain ugly, is the super long charge times. I read that C&D article and they point out that it will take the Bolt 3x longer to charge than a model 3 making for some long layovers if you're on the road away from home and don't have access to a 480v unit. While I respect EV's for that kind of money there are other things that I'd spend it on first.

 

[sontakke]

Electrics don't care if they get tuck in the traffic. They don't lose their range (except of course if you are blaring A/C on while stuck in the traffic)

 

[tweakmonkey]

Pretty much every EV - even those well before Tesla existed, uses a floor mounted battery. It's the most logical place to put it.

Also, charge times do matter if you take the car on a 300 mile road trip. For 230 miles or less they don't matter much at all. If your commute is say, 30 miles daily, and you get home at 7 pm, even with 110v your car will be ready to go another 230 miles by about midnight. That's with the slowest charging option possible. If you have a 220 charger and commute 50 miles a day, you could charge every 4th night and it would still be ready for those 200 miles by the next morning. If I had a Bolt I wouldn't even charge it til it was at 50%. Then again I'm never surprised by a 100 mile trip. I usually know well in advance when I'm going beyond the usual commute by 2x

 

[Pantoot]

If I had a Bolt I wouldn't even charge it til it was at 50%.

I thought the same, but you really do get into the habit of getting home and plugging in the car. The car knows when the cheap electric rates start and waits until then to start charging. I imagine the bolt will do the same.

 

[Brovane]

The suppliers don't care necessarily but I absolutely agree the dealers care.

Range anxiety is definitely real even if it may be unfounded. My commute is about 36 miles but many of my coworkers are in the 50-100 mile range. Yes, you can charge at work (if we had them) but what if you had to leave early and got stuck in traffic? That kind of stuff.

If you commuted 50-miles on way to a workplace and plugged the car into a standard 6.6kw L2 charger in about 2-hours you would be back up a full charge.

As far as stuck in traffic, not really a concern in a EV because the major draw is the electric motor and if you are creeping along in traffic you are minimizing this draw on the battery. Climate control doesn't impact range as you think it does for a EV.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

AC, Heat, Cold weather. Etc. All of which can have substantial impact on range. That 100 mile range is easy to get into the redzone even if you only drive 60 miles.

Electric motors produce heat. That is how the cars heat the cabin. It is free heat other than the power for the blower.

 

[NutBucket]

That's not true at all. Heat is purely resistive...that's why seat heaters are far more efficient.

 

[herm0016]

Electric motors produce heat. That is how the cars heat the cabin. It is free heat other than the power for the blower.

Not enough to heat the cabin. The leaf takes the hairdryer approach while the volt heats fluid and uses this in a standard heater core to heat the cabin, of course the volt also can heat and cool the battery and has the gas engine to cool and make heat. 3 separate loops accomplish these tasks.

 

[Kaido]

I've been considering electrics now that I have more access to public chargers. My problem is making the pricing work out. For example, the Bolt is supposed to debut with a base price of $37.5k (plus a $7.5k tax incentive). But you're still financing the full amount. Even with a 0% 60-month loan (not unrealistic...the sister Volt has a 0% financing offer right now), you're still looking at a $625/mo car payment for all 5 years. That's pretty steep, especially since a 2016 Civic ($18.6k base) gets 31/42 & a 2017 Prius non-plugin hybrid ($24.6k base) gets 54/50. Also, Tesla has a lease on a base-model Tesla Model S (2 years, 10k miles per year) for $598/mo. So you could have a Tesla for 2 years for less than you'd pay for 2 years on a Volt loan (although iirc there was a down payment required on the Tesla short-term lease).

Leasing other EV's & hybrids has better prices, however. GM has a starting lease of $304/mo for the Volt hybrid, which has a 50-mile battery plus a gas engine. That would be just enough to get me to work & back every day, without any range anxiety thanks to the full, real gas engine. One of my problems is that at current gas prices, I'm only spending $100 to $150 a month in fuel. And that's with an AWD Jeep that gets ~22mph average. I could cut that in half with a more fuel-efficient car, like a Civic or Prius, so even if (when) the gas prices double, it still won't be a wallet-killer.

 

[Midwayman]

Yah, I think gas prices are going to have to go up or electric price come down for it to make financial sense for a lot of us.
Awhile ago I found this interesting video on where its all headed though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM

Kinda long and speculative of course, but it seems like we're 6-7 years out from the tipping point of a lot of interesting things happening.

 

[Kaido]

Yah, I think gas prices are going to have to go up or electric price come down for it to make financial sense for a lot of us.

Yeah, I'm in the process of lemon-lawing my Jeep right now; if it pans out & I get a full refund, I'm leaning towards an Ecoboost Mustang. 31 MPG highway. I hate to say it, but it's the most economical option out of all of the cars I've been looking at, both MPG-wise & dollar-wise. I think if I had a charger at home, something like the upcoming Prius Prime would be a good fit (charge up at home, EV into work; charge up at work, EV back to home - plus ~600-mile range on the gas engine). The top 3 being a Tesla 100D (315-mile range), Mustang (31mpg), and Volt (50-mile battery + regular gas engine). The 100D, fully configured, tips the scales at $150k, so that's out for my budget lol. The Mustang would be a lot of fun, is pretty dang fuel-efficient, and costs less than the Volt. The Volt would be cool from a pure practicality standpoint. I have access to an EV charger within walking distance of work, and the 50-mile battery would definitely cover my daily commute for the majority of the time.

It all boils down to, what's the goal? I think the 238-mile Bolt would be awesome, 100% EV with real range, but for ~$625/mo on a 5-year loan, there are a lot of other cars I'd rather look at. Even my Jeep, which averages 22mpg, is only running me around $25 per fillup, maybe once a week right now, so around $100/mo (maybe $150). Eventually gas will double, so I may be looking at a $300/mo gas bill, in which case hybrids & electrics would look more attractive, but it all boils down to price vs. goals. Pretty much the only way I'd be saving any money would be to get the $0-down, $199/mo lease on the 80-mile Leaf & charge up near work. Risky in case I need to go anywhere else during the day (~50 miles of driving per day) & a bit of a hassle on weekends since I don't have access to a charger at home. I really, really like the idea of electric charging, but looking at it from something other than getting a Tesla to go really fast, EV's don't make much sense to me financially.

 

[Mursilis]

I have a 70 mile EV and commute 42 miles a day. No range anxiety yet but my drive is very predictable. Sometimes I make side trips to the store or my fabricator on the way in and always get home with 15-20 miles left. If it's 90 outside and I crank the ac I lose about 5-10% range but my EV has a way smaller battery than a Bolt or new leaf. If I'm stuck in traffic (which happens often) it barely effects the range. We'll see how the winters go but it doesn't freeze here. I use heated seats and wear gloves so I'll probably rarely use the blower/heater, so that won't effect much either. No plans to buy a 100-200 mile EV here but maybe in a few years when the market gets flooded with off lease Bolts.

Which EV do you have? Do you like it? Would you get another?

We're considering an EV to add to the family fleet (currently 4 drivers with another coming in less than 2 years). So many of our trips are short little 10 mile trips to the store, school, etc., and an EV would be perfect for that sort of thing. We'd still have 'regular' cars when we need to drive 100+ in a day. Currently, a Nissan Leaf or a Ford Focus Electric are on our shopping list.

 

[Kaido]

Which EV do you have? Do you like it? Would you get another?

We're considering an EV to add to the family fleet (currently 4 drivers with another coming in less than 2 years). So many of our trips are short little 10 mile trips to the store, school, etc., and an EV would be perfect for that sort of thing. We'd still have 'regular' cars when we need to drive 100+ in a day. Currently, a Nissan Leaf or a Ford Focus Electric are on our shopping list.

If you live in a winter area, make sure to read up on how cold temperatures affect the battery. For example, the Tesla has insulated batteries, but the Honda Fit EV does not...when it drops down into the single-digits here, my buddy's Fit EV maxes out at 19 miles of range fully-charged.

The Leaf now comes with an optional 107-mile battery, so that may be worth looking into. Also, if it will mostly be used for short drives, look into leasing deals. The 82-mile Leaf is going for $199 a month with zero down on a 3-year lease at the dealer near me.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Which EV do you have? Do you like it? Would you get another?

We're considering an EV to add to the family fleet (currently 4 drivers with another coming in less than 2 years). So many of our trips are short little 10 mile trips to the store, school, etc., and an EV would be perfect for that sort of thing. We'd still have 'regular' cars when we need to drive 100+ in a day. Currently, a Nissan Leaf or a Ford Focus Electric are on our shopping list.

I have a Smart electric. Certainly not a family car but for commuting and 2-people driving, I LOVE it. I would absolutely get another one and my next car will certainly be an EV if it's not a second sports car just for fun (I used to have 3-4 cars at a time and I'm a tinker/tuner and work on cars for a living). I commute with it every day and it's fantastic in traffic, plus we use it for all our around town drives, going to the beach (~50 miles round trip) most weekends, and visiting friends out of town (most are within 25-miles from our house). We put way less miles on our other (Gas Honda Fit) car now as well since we take the electric everywhere. The Leaf has a crappy battery (at least it used to, air cooled) and the Focus Electric has the worst range of most of the cars in its class. I would recommend LEASING either, but if you're buying I'd say look at the used Spark EVs or Fiat 500e (both around $10-12k here) if you can get a small car, or a Rav4 EV if you need a bigger one.

OR wait, for the Bolt EV, and the new models from Tesla, VW and Ford. There will probably be many new electric cars on the market in 1.5-2 years.

 

[Mursilis]

Thank you both for your reply. I'm in Virginia, and we're not getting a lot of the awesome lease deals you may be seeing on the West Coast and in other places. Also, VA taxes the entire cost of the vehicle even for a lease, not just the value of the lease, so when you add up the costs, it generally makes more sense to buy a used EV for ~$10K vs. a lease. There's a few of the Smart EVs around here for sale, but I'd need at least a 4-seater, so that's out. The Leaf and the Focus EV are more common, with a few Spark EVs also available. I don't think I've seen a Fiat 500e available within 200 miles since I started looking over the summer. The East Coast still has far fewer EVs than the West Coast, but that's slowly changing. I was amazed at how many I saw out in California when I was out there a few weeks ago.

 

[desura]

Yeah, pretty excited for the Bolt. Also reportedly it is bigger on the inside than the exterior suggests. I've driven a Volt and it was so cramped inside.

I won't be in the market for a new car for several more years most likely, but my next car, probably in five years, will definitely be an electric.

Yeah, the tax credit isn't the same as a low sale price. For starters you have to owe at least that much on your federal taxes, which is a minimum income of like...60k? And you pay sales tax on the full amount as well.

Still, full electric means no oil changes, likely long-lasting brakes, not needing the emissions system.

 

[NutBucket]

I wouldn't be in the market for a $40k car if I only made $60k.....just sayin'

 

[desura]

I wouldn't be in the market for a $40k car if I only made $60k.....just sayin'

Eh, well, if you count all of the other savings from the electric design, TCO over 8 years is in the ballpark of a 25k car.

 

[Brovane]

Yeah, pretty excited for the Bolt. Also reportedly it is bigger on the inside than the exterior suggests. I've driven a Volt and it was so cramped inside.

I won't be in the market for a new car for several more years most likely, but my next car, probably in five years, will definitely be an electric.

Keep in mind that depending on the EV you buy in a couple of years any Federal EV incentives might have expired. They expire within 12-months for any manufacturer once they sell over 200k of EV's in the US. So you can expect that GM, Nissan and Tesla in 2018 will all have the EV tax credit expire for them.

 

[NutBucket]

I'd wager they may be renewed for "average" buyers...not those buying Model S & X

 

[Brovane]

I'd wager they may be renewed for "average" buyers...not those buying Model S & X

Model S and X have a wide price range. Their is "average" buyers purchasing a Model S and X.

I am not depending on that the Tax Credit will be renewed. So far I haven't really heard of a push by any politician to renew them. Of course they did wait until the last moment to renew the Solar Tax Credit. So anything can happen.

 

[desura]

Eh, the thing is the Chevy Volt ended up being VERY affordable used thanks to that federal tax credit.

 

[Brovane]

Which EV do you have? Do you like it? Would you get another?

We're considering an EV to add to the family fleet (currently 4 drivers with another coming in less than 2 years). So many of our trips are short little 10 mile trips to the store, school, etc., and an EV would be perfect for that sort of thing. We'd still have 'regular' cars when we need to drive 100+ in a day. Currently, a Nissan Leaf or a Ford Focus Electric are on our shopping list.

We purchased a 2015 Leaf last year. My wife drives it mostly, it is her errand car for driving around town. She normally averages about 900-1000 miles a month with it.

A couple of things I like about driving a EV.

• No warm up time, right from the start when you turn on the car it is ready to go.
• It costs about 2-3 cents per mile in energy costs versus our old car (Highlander) that costs us about 15 cents per mile in energy costs.
• The maintenance required for the Leaf is ridiculous simple compared to a ICE car. It is like rotate tires, replace cabin air filter yearly and every 2-years check brake fluids. No 30,000-60,000 miles all that other crap.
• It is nice to sit when you are waiting for someone, (like kids getting out of school) and you can just sit their with the car on and run the AC without idling as you would need to do in a ICE vehicle.
• Not having to do the weekly or bi-weekly fill-ups at Costco. Just plug it in and it is full of energy in the morning.
• Even with a little over 100hp the Leaf is a fun car at stoplights. You can stomp on the accelerator and look back in the rear view mirror and see all the ICE vehicle's still at the light.
• It is nice if you are out and about at a public charger to activate the AC before you get to the car. You get back to a car that is already cold, nothing beats that on a good day.

A couple of not so good things

• The car is small and a little cramped inside.
• Finding public chargers. Sometimes it can be problematic to find Public Chargers. It took me 20-mins at the UCI Hospital to find the Public Charger listed on plug share. Of course a large part of that time was figuring out where to get the parking permit because it was in the employee area but the public could park their if you purchased a day permit.
• Wished that we had bought the Leaf with the L3 charging option. We have looked at trying to use it for longer trips. My Dad's house it right at the max range (75 miles). It would have helped to know that we stop halfway and plug it in at a L3 charger and get a 80% charge in 30-mins.
• Several times in parking lots I have almost had people walk right into the path of the Leaf. People are so used to using their ears and they don't hear the Leaf approaching and will walk into the path of the car.
• The Leaf energy usage sucks at free way speeds. This is something that I wasn't aware of. The leaf is optimized for trips below 50-miles hour. The Leaf AC consumption at 70-mph is 437 Wh/mi the Tesla Model S is 340. So at freeway speeds the Leaf range is 60.7 miles but the Tesla with a EPA range of 265 miles has a range of 280 miles at 60-mph. The EPA range for EV's emphasizes lower speed city travel over high speed freeway travel.