The curious case of the disappearing coolant - 11/7/13 update...down again

[vi edit]

Called this morning and taking it into the original dealer I bought it at. They are about 30 miles away from me, so it's a bit of a trek. They'll take a look at it on Monday. I'm not really sure what kind of options I have available. I live in IL and the lemon law here is 4 seperate trips for the same issue(which needs to be a significant issue that impacts the resale or safety of the car) or 30 days out of service. Has to done within the first year/12k miles. This would be the second time it goes in.

I don't want it drawing out past the lemon law period if it's going to continue happening.

 

[vi edit]

I bet its old man Smithers taking your coolant at night.

...And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you meddling forum posters!

It's a LOLCAT opportunity of cat in an engine bay....

I'm in yer hoodz stealzin yer coolz!!

 

[zaydq]

I'm following this thread like crazy right now. Can't believe you're running into these problems with under 10,000 miles on the damn thing.

I have a feeling your coolant is getting thrown out of the exhaust or its leaking into your oil and the engine is burning it off.

Thats a lemon and a half imo.

 

[hanoverphist]

have you checked around the throttle body for seeping? it could be the loop lines used for heating up the manifod that are seeping slow enough to not actually drip. also, you could have a bad intake mani gasket that is allowing coolant to see into the intake and burn out the exhaust. you wouldnt really have any smoke or bad smells, just a hint of it most of the time. ive run across this on a few different cars, the worst one would lose about a quart a week with no puddles or smoke. that was a faulty fiber IM gasket that broke between the intake and a water port. it would keep pressure to the coolant side fairly well, but the vacuum created by throttle would slowly suck coolant into the intake. worth a look, at least.

 

[slag]

If it was going out the exhaust, I'd expect you to be able to smell it. As you know, it smells very sweet and is unmistakable.

 

[Scarpozzi]

If it's a slow enough leak, you may not notice it if it's going out the exhaust. A head gasket leak could be a possibility. Get a spark plug wrench and check your plugs for any residue.

Top off your radiator and reservior. Typically, these are connected with a rubber hose and small metal band. Wrap the connection points in toilet paper and then masking tape and remove them after a week...inspect them and look for any small leaks there...

Get some cardboard and start parking your car at night on a sheet of cardboard.....that way you can more clearly see any drips overnight.


BTW...I hate DEXcool. That stuff is junk....after about 4-5 years the stuff is really bad about clotting. Be sure to get a full coolant flush when they recommend it. The heater core on my car has been gummed up twice because of that stuff.

 

[7window]

wow bad luck. hope you get a new car. at those mileage you shouldn' t be worrying about the car except washing it and changing oil. I would ask for a replacement. Imagine if it happens now with low mileage, the phantom problem would not dissappear as you add miles.

 

[Scarpozzi]

wow bad luck. hope you get a new car. at those mileage you shouldn' t be worrying about the car except washing it and changing oil. I would ask for a replacement. Imagine if it happens now with low mileage, the phantom problem would not dissappear as you add miles.

Bah.....cars have many thing that can go wrong with them. Once he tracks down the problem, it may be the only thing this car has go wrong for 100k miles. (you never know)

 

[phucheneh]

They did what they described as a "pressure" test. Said they "hooked it up to the machine" and pressure came back fine. That was on the coolant system. When you say compression test are you asking about engine compression? I'm assuming that if there is some sort of leak that is allowing coolant to seep in then compression would be lower, no?

Sounds like the service advisor is either making shit up or is just a moron, honestly. He's confusing two pieces of equipment: 1) a flush machine, which is basically just a fluid pump that you hook into the cooling system. The machine's pump shoves new coolant in one direction as the engine's water pump pushes the old coolant out the other. 2) A pressure tester, which is just a hand pump (it resembles a pump for something else that can be purchased at an 'adult' store...) with different adapters that allow you to install it in place of the car's pressure cap.

The pressure tester has two functions. One, it allows you get the system up to maximum pressure with the engine off and lets you to find external leaks pretty easily. Two, it allows you to observe how long the system holds pressure. Any leakdown should be very, very slow.

Given all the symptoms described, I would wager that there is an internal defect in the engine. Head gasket is possible, but it would probably be from an installation issue rather than being 'blown.' It could also be a crack in the head or cylinder liner. This is assuming it's being burned.

I would want to see them doing every damned test they can. Notably-

Compression test. All spark plugs are removed and the starter is cranked for a few compression strokes on each cylinder. A gauge measures the peak pressure reached. Even with something as severe as a cracked block, this may be inconclusive.

A leakdown test. Similar to the first, but a regulated supply of air is hooked up to each cylinder (engine is not moving) and the reading taken is a measure of how fast the air is able to escape the cylinder.

Those are common tests that any mechanic should know how to perform. Past that, the next thing I would do is check the coolant for combustion gases. It's a pretty simple tester that uses a fluid that changes colors when hydrocarbons pass through it. You can also use an exhaust gas analyzer (tailpipe probe) for this.

What would be even harder to get them to do, but IMO probably a good next step if NOTHING is found via the above- send the oil off for a lab analysis.

 

[vi edit]

I appreciate all of the feedback and explanations of things. I'm mechanically conversational, but it's not one of my stronger points. Most of things people are asking to check leak points at are way beyond what I'm comfortable/able to do. It's still under warranty and I'll give the dealer a chance to try and figure it out. It got dropped off at another dealer that some (mechanically inclined)coworkers of mine personally know the mechanics at and vouch for. I'll give them a chance to diagnose on Monday.

I was somewhat unsettled leaving there when I was checking in, describing my symptoms and the service manager said "should be no big deal". To which I replied "a brand new car burning through one and half tanks of coolant in the first 4000 miles without a drop on the ground is a big deal to me". I got a shoulder shrug and then I needed to hop a ride back to work.

I'll be contacting the sales guy who sold me the car and starting to fish around for options with dealing with Ford direct on this. There's also a Ford rep that trolls around the Focus Fanatics forum always asking members to contact her with issues/opinions on things. Might be worth checking on that too.

What I'm not happy with is just topping it off and finding nothing a 2nd time.

 

[exdeath]

It's a new hybrid silly. It runs on gas and coolant.

Ok sorry, not very helpful.

 

[LTC8K6]

I would like to point out that you had to add a lot of coolant the first time.

It takes almost half a gallon and just hit the min mark. Turned it over and let it prime the system and it was barely at the 1/4 full mark. Added what I had left and brought it about halfway to the min.

The coolant capacity is only 5.3 quarts. You appear to have added about half that amount and it still wasn't full...

 

[vi edit]

2nd dealer to look at it called back...can't find anything. According to them "did a pressure check for hours" and found nothing. I asked about compression checks and investigating for signs of coolant intrusion to the engine itself and they said that any tarnish from coolant wouldn't show up "from the small amount that's missing". I asked where is it going then...because it has to be going somewhere. The answer was "We don't know".

Will be calling the sales guy (for whatever value that has) and see what sort of options I have to start pursuing.

 

[mvbighead]

We don't know, so come pick it up?

Ick. Sorry op, definitely a frustrating experience from the sound of things.

 

[vi edit]

They were going to do some kind of overnight pressure test on it tonight to see if there is anything that didn't show up in a couple hours worth of diagnostics.

I also asked if they ran it when the car was hot too...said they did.

:|

 

[chucky2]

Providing you have some time on the oil, get yourself an oil analysis kit (Blackstone Labs or something like that), drive until hot, drain the oil, take a sample in the kit and send it in.

If it has Potassium in it more than single digits (and it should be mid to low single digits at worst), you've got coolant in your engine.

Chuck

 

[LTC8K6]

Providing you have some time on the oil, get yourself an oil analysis kit (Blackstone Labs or something like that), drive until hot, drain the oil, take a sample in the kit and send it in.

If it has Potassium in it more than single digits (and it should be mid to low single digits at worst), you've got coolant in your engine.

Chuck

Sounds like a good idea. The coolant is going somewhere, and it appears that he was missing more than half of it initially.

 

[vi edit]

Sounds like a good idea. The coolant is going somewhere, and it appears that he was missing more than half of it initially.

I don't know how much I was really "missing". I honestly never checked the levels when I got the car. It never crossed my mind. It may very well have been low. How low, I don't know. But there certainly is some issue with it going *somewhere* as is apparent by the total loss of it and the overheating. And once it was topped off to max it's now dropped back below min again.

I had the dealer change the oil while it was in the shop (was due in a couple hundred miles anyway) so I have nothing to send in for analysis for a while.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Drive it till it dies. Stop making payments. Problem solved. Just kidding. I probably wouldn't accept the car back without some repairs done tbh. As you're finding out Ford sucks.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't know how much I was really "missing". I honestly never checked the levels when I got the car. It never crossed my mind. It may very well have been low. How low, I don't know. But there certainly is some issue with it going *somewhere* as is apparent by the total loss of it and the overheating. And once it was topped off to max it's now dropped back below min again.

I had the dealer change the oil while it was in the shop (was due in a couple hundred miles anyway) so I have nothing to send in for analysis for a while.

Send a sample now, and then send one in when the coolant has dropped down. The difference may be interesting.

Assuming you only put in half a gallon of coolant, that's 2 quarts out of a total of 5.3 quarts.

That's a lot of your coolant gone.

For comparison, my Jeep takes 14.5 quarts of coolant and it probably wouldn't care if it was 2 quarts low.

 

[phucheneh]

The expansion tank should hold very little. It's less a tank of coolant and more a tank of air- that's the intended advantage of such a cooling system design (pressure cap on expansion tank)...it bleeds itself.

Factories like to keep fluid levels to a minimum on new cars. I've never seen anything like engine oil or trans fluid below capacity, but being a little light on the coolant is pretty common among some manufacturers.

Point being, I could see the tank only only like a quart or so, tops, when at the full mark. And I could also see it not being at the full mark. But it shipping with the level low enough to overheat, though? That's a pretty big booboo. That's the tank empty and them some.

And you've topped it off twice, right?

The good news: you're two visits down. Get those dipshits to say 'herp derp who could know?!' a couple more times and lemon-law that turd.

Does your car have an auto trans? Random thought...you could be losing coolant through the trans cooler in the radiator. Glycol contamination murders transmissions. And I could see that going a long time (...until trans failure) without being caught, especially if your trans is of the dipstick-less variety.

My most prominent thought continues to be 'who knows what's wrong, what damage has already been done, and what impact it will have on the car once the warranty runs out.' I would not keep the damned thing...Ford needs to send some people out to conclusively prove that their stupidity has not caused harm to your new car. If they're unwilling, then they can take it back. Period. I would take no other stance.

 

[LTC8K6]

Hadn't thought of the trans...

Well, the auto trans only has 1.9 quarts of fluid in it. So it would presumably be in dire shape already if coolant was mixing with the trans fluid.

 

[vi edit]

Nope, manual transmission. Fords auto-manual dual clutch, "Powershit" transmission is horrible. I wouldn't wish that thing on anyone.

And at this point, that's all I'm doing is hoping it drops down enough a few more times (will be taking pictures weekly now and documenting levels) to take it in twice more and get the "don't know" answer to lemon it. If it's not "leaking" then it's eating it and I don't want a grenaded engine 5,000 miles outside of factory warranty.

 

[JCH13]

Did you ever try testing the coolant for exhaust gases?

 

[vi edit]

Dealer "pressure tested" all night and nothing found. I asked about testing oil "oh we already dumped it out". So no go there.

The car has 4500 miles on it. I'm not spending money out of my own pocket to send in for testing and analysis. That's the whole point of a warranty and it being brand new. Dealer is clueless as to the problem. Has zero desire to do any additional diagnosis and is basically shrugging their shoulders as to where it is really going.

The GM is out until Thursday. My salesguy gave me his name and number and to contact him. I'm going to start the lemon law case on the car. I'm also going to be contacting a Ford support person that frequents the Focus Fanatics forum and see what options I have available there.

I just want to build a case and wash my hands of the vehicle and Ford service depts for that matter. My plan is once I get it back to drive the ever loving bat shit out of the car and not baby it, and hope I can get two more visits before next July failing any other options.