The curious case of the disappearing coolant - 11/7/13 update...down again

[zaydq]

i thought people bought brand new cars to avoid headaches...

 

[7window]

can you imagine you buy a new car and you are taking picture every week of the coolant level. Who needs that headache? Ask for a new car. You should also be compensated for being the test engineer for ford.

 

[NutBucket]

i thought people bought brand new cars to avoid headaches...

Only Hondas and Toyotas

 

[nerp]

Only Hondas and Toyotas

It happens to all. I could make this Ford story look like a cakewalk with a pair of Toyota and Honda stories in my circle of friends and family.

 

[7window]

It happens to all. I could make this Ford story look like a cakewalk with a pair of Toyota and Honda stories in my circle of friends and family.

I had a honda accord problem once.

 

[NutBucket]

It happens to all. I could make this Ford story look like a cakewalk with a pair of Toyota and Honda stories in my circle of friends and family.

You realize I'm only kidding, right? But it does so happen that my family's experience with above has been excellent.

 

[mvbighead]

It happens to all. I could make this Ford story look like a cakewalk with a pair of Toyota and Honda stories in my circle of friends and family.

This is part of the reason I got interested in working on my own cars. Cars are mechanical, and as such, they are going to have problems some day or another, whether new or old.

Imagine the most simple of problems that causes the check engine light to pop on. Arranging transportation to/from the mechanic, twice, is a PITA. Now, take that simple problem, and make it something that doesn't illuminate the light, but causes a sporadic or occasional problem. That could mean 2-3 or more trips to have it serviced, all of which are inconvenient at minimum or a PITA until the mechanic(s) are able to determine and resolve the issue.

Of note, I am not suggesting that the op fix this himself, but just that it sporadic or long term issues can take a while to resolve. If I can avoid that by trying several things myself, I'll do it. It really sucks to have to deal with something like this on a brand new car.

 

[NutBucket]

The OP is doing the right thing though. Keep taking it to the dealer so its all documented. If it was me I would take in every time the overflow bottle emptied itself. It does seem like he's building a pretty convincing case for a lemon law claim.

Sucks but it doesn't seem likely he'll get shafted.

As an aside I really dislike this trend of substituting a temp gauge with dummy lights. No good may come of it. Or at least if you don't have a dedicated gauge have one "gauge" available in the multi-function display.

 

[nerp]

The research probably tells automakers that people ignore gauges and tend to ignore warning lights more than just a sudden warning light.

 

[Drako]

I had a honda accord problem once.

Same here. '98 Accord - worst car I've ever owned.

 

[SearchMaster]

Same here. '98 Accord - worst car I've ever owned.

Heh - in a lot of respects my 98 Accord is the best car I've ever owned. It has 250K+ miles now, I bought it (cheap) with 180K, and it's hardly needed anything done to it. It isn't sporty by any stretch, but it was easy to put a nice stereo in, is very cheap to maintain, is roomy enough and comfortable, and gets pretty good gas mileage.

 

[7window]

Heh - in a lot of respects my 98 Accord is the best car I've ever owned. It has 250K+ miles now, I bought it (cheap) with 180K, and it's hardly needed anything done to it. It isn't sporty by any stretch, but it was easy to put a nice stereo in, is very cheap to maintain, is roomy enough and comfortable, and gets pretty good gas mileage.

Yeah but What have they done to the accord before it reached 180k? They must have sold it to you after they fix all the problem and you are just lucky after adding another 70k.

 

[slag]

Providing you have some time on the oil, get yourself an oil analysis kit (Blackstone Labs or something like that), drive until hot, drain the oil, take a sample in the kit and send it in.

If it has Potassium in it more than single digits (and it should be mid to low single digits at worst), you've got coolant in your engine.

Chuck

Or a banana.

 

[WilliamM2]

Yeah but What have they done to the accord before it reached 180k? They must have sold it to you after they fix all the problem and you are just lucky after adding another 70k.

My father in law drives a 2000 Accord (same as 98) they bought new, It has 220K without any repairs, or even any maintenance other than oil changes and brakes. Still on the original hoses belts, you name it. He's too cheap to spend the money. When it dies they will buy another, they got a 2008 when the 1991 they had died with the same maintenance routine..

I'd say they are pretty damn reliable.

 

[7window]

My father in law drives a 2000 Accord (same as 98) they bought new, It has 220K without any repairs, or even any maintenance other than oil changes and brakes. Still on the original hoses belts, you name it. He's too cheap to spend the money. When it dies they will buy another, they got a 2008 when the 1991 they had died with the same maintenance routine..

I'd say they are pretty damn reliable.

Highway or city miles? Makes a big difference

 

[NutBucket]

220k without a timing belt? Now that's living dangerously.

 

[vi edit]

Ok, so on Tuesday I sent a message to a Ford Rep on Focus Fanatics. Wednesday morning I got a call from them, but couldn't take it because of work being chaos. Talk to them today. They had contacted the dealer and talked to the service manager.

His opinion to Ford corp: "Well if it's not leaking then it has to be evaporating. Since coolant is mostly water that can happen."

Riiiiiight. 3+ gallons evaporated in 4 months time and 4000 miles. I smell something burning and it's bullshit.

I told the Ford rep that it's unacceptable for a brand new car to be "evaporating" that much fluid in the first 4 months of it's life. She's "going back for more information" and calling me next week.

For now I have a 2nd visit under my belt and will start taking weekly pictures of the fluid levels.

 

[tracerbullet]

My last car (Eclipse) had a quirk with the overflow tank... I can only describe that car, but I have a feeling they are all similar:

That system burped out a little coolant when the engine got hot and the system was under pressure. That coolant went into a reservoir tank and pulled it back out after things had cooled down. There was a tube leading from the radiator near the cap on that reservoir tank. At the tank itself was of course another cap, a cap that had a tube coming down from it into the depths of the reservoir tank and into the extra coolant, so that it could be sucked back out into the main system as needed when things cooled down.

The problem that would happen is that hose would kink if you pulled the reservoir cap off and put it back on. You had to be extra careful that the tube routed down and into the coolant. If it didn't, it would get bound up near the top. What would happen then is that a little coolant would burp into the reservoir, but instead of being pulled back in later, air would get pulled in instead. Do a bunch of drive cycles and now you have coolant missing from the system, bubbles, gurgling noise, temperature swings, etc.

So if cars are cars and yours is anything like that one - check your overflow tank, specifically the cap on it and any tubing coming off of that cap. Make darn sure it's down into the rest of the coolant and not either missing, coiled up going the wrong way.

Worked for me and other owners of that car I've mentioned it to on that forum coming in with bubbles in their systems.

 

[phucheneh]

LOL. I don't think they understand 'evaporation.'

I would try and explain to them, at a kindergarten level, how rain works. Water evaporates...water condenses. It does not leave the earth and drift off into space. Closed system.

Likewise, if water evaporates inside your cooling system, it will condense back into the same system. There is nowhere for it to go. A claim of evaporation would be absurd with a standard overflow (puke) tank system. It's patently insane with a system like on your car, where coolant is never intended to leave the pressurized loop.

It's hard for me to guess whether they are actually this stupid, and simply think you are complaining about nothing; or if they just really do not want to fix the car.

The latter is quite likely. The dealer does not want to risk losing money with a rejected warranty claim. Which means they are terribly stupid, as Ford is full of idiots. You wouldn't believe some of the nonsensical made-up shit I've seen them approve.

But they just know that to start work on it would be to open themselves up to a mess. The trick is going to be getting Ford corporate's attention. Quite frankly, I don't know how to do that.

 

[phucheneh]

My last car (Eclipse) had a quirk with the overflow tank... I can only describe that car, but I have a feeling they are all similar:

That system burped out a little coolant when the engine got hot and the system was under pressure. That coolant went into a reservoir tank and pulled it back out after things had cooled down. There was a tube leading from the radiator near the cap on that reservoir tank. At the tank itself was of course another cap, a cap that had a tube coming down from it into the depths of the reservoir tank and into the extra coolant, so that it could be sucked back out into the main system as needed when things cooled down.

The problem that would happen is that hose would kink if you pulled the reservoir cap off and put it back on. You had to be extra careful that the tube routed down and into the coolant. If it didn't, it would get bound up near the top. What would happen then is that a little coolant would burp into the reservoir, but instead of being pulled back in later, air would get pulled in instead. Do a bunch of drive cycles and now you have coolant missing from the system, bubbles, gurgling noise, temperature swings, etc.

So if cars are cars and yours is anything like that one - check your overflow tank, specifically the cap on it and any tubing coming off of that cap. Make darn sure it's down into the rest of the coolant and not either missing, coiled up going the wrong way.

Worked for me and other owners of that car I've mentioned it to on that forum coming in with bubbles in their systems.

This is a common Japanese design, but Ford has never used it. Most if not all Ford's and GM's use a pressurized tank with no radiator cap. And older ones with a puke tank always had the hose off the bottom of the tank, rather than the vertical hose through the cap.

Again- the key difference is that the tank has coolant constantly circulating through it. Coolant does not enter/exit the system through a hose attached below the radiator cap. If there is such a hose, it is simply a pressure relief that dumps onto the ground.

edit: this is just a common thing that seems to get misunderstood by people who have not dealt with both types of system. There are further distinctions that can be made, but the important thing to know is: a flimsy plastic tank with a simple cap = 'overflow' or 'recovery' tank. A sturdier (sometimes metal on older car; now usually just thick, reinforced plastic) tank that has a cap with a seal = 'expansion' or 'header' tank.

 

[WilliamM2]

Highway or city miles? Makes a big difference

Other than a drive to Florida and back every year, mostly city.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

I might have missed it, but so far no one has talked about bleeding the cooling system and whether it's been done.

Regardless of whether it's pressurized or not, a lack of coolant means air will be in the system and create hot spots in the cooling loop. It's not unlikely that part of the coolant loss is boil-off from the presence of air. I'd ensure it's completely filled and bled as part of your lemon law claim.

 

[NutBucket]

That's not for the OP to mess with. If the dealer can't do that simple task the its their incompetence.

 

[nerp]

That's not for the OP to mess with. If the dealer can't do that simple task the its their incompetence.

Yeah, in this situation, this (potential for air in the system) should have been ruled out in the first 30 minutes of the first service visit for the issue.

 

[BUTCH1]

Ok, so on Tuesday I sent a message to a Ford Rep on Focus Fanatics. Wednesday morning I got a call from them, but couldn't take it because of work being chaos. Talk to them today. They had contacted the dealer and talked to the service manager.

His opinion to Ford corp: "Well if it's not leaking then it has to be evaporating. Since coolant is mostly water that can happen."

Riiiiiight. 3+ gallons evaporated in 4 months time and 4000 miles. I smell something burning and it's bullshit.

I told the Ford rep that it's unacceptable for a brand new car to be "evaporating" that much fluid in the first 4 months of it's life. She's "going back for more information" and calling me next week.

For now I have a 2nd visit under my belt and will start taking weekly pictures of the fluid levels.

Wow, what a colossal load of shit they are trying to pull on you, I bought my car new in 2005, I changed the coolant after 3 years and in that amount of time I NEVER had to add any, it's a god damm sealed system, there should be no means for it to "evaporate". Keep pushing these assholes and start mentioning lawyers next since they are going to come up with one useless explanation after another...