The Dangers of Anti-Intellectual Propaganda

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
CA always has bat shit insane prop propsals out for signatures. It's the nature of the CA prop system to allow all correctly formatted prop proposals to try and collect enough signatures to get on the ballot. The only "approval" process is the correct forms are filled out correctly.
As I mentioned, bat shit insane is an avenue to notoriety and attention for people with little skill in satisfying their desire for self respect.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
CA always has bat shit insane prop propsals out for signatures. It's the nature of the CA prop system to allow all correctly formatted prop proposals to try and collect enough signatures to get on the ballot. The only "approval" process is the correct forms are filled out correctly.

Yes, it is clear here that a lot of people have no idea how the proposition system works. This entire thread is dumb.

Edit: although it is amusing to see people inadvertently proving your point, haha.
 
Last edited:
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
M: I disagree. You do not need to a willingness to agree with the culture. You can't dictate people's opinion. You can take action as a company if you do something the company sees as inimical to its culture. Remember the culture at Google seems to be creating an atmosphere where typical biases against women are not voiced in a way that would cause stress or an atmosphere they would perceive as a threat to women working there,

He was not fired for making factually incorrect statements. His post literally gave ways that the company might do things to help get more women into Google. If people feel that as a threat, that is more on them than it is on him. Unless you can explain what was a threat to women.

M: I see little difference between a company culture and a company mission statement, goals that are articulated and expected to be perceived and executed by employees. Pinheads are prone to miss this social context, sort of an Asperger's thing, I believe more prevalent in males.

Culture and mission statement have little to nothing to do with someone's ability to do the work needed. I like Google's intent, I dislike their execution and biases.

M: You dismiss the fact he got fired and the company still standing behind doing so. It seems quite possible to make a scientific case that Blacks are intellectually inferior to whites and Whites inferior to Asians just by looking at race and IQ scores, a case that with some frequency is made in academic circles. But it will get you fired from a university for making such a case no matter how much you point at one set of data. That is because the likelihood that it is racial bigotry that drives such a claim is more likely than not that it was driven by scientific fidelity to data. You are making a similar case but you don't see it.

Anyone that tires to make the case that blacks are intellectually inferior because of their average IQ score would be wrong. IQ, while being a good at measuring mental abilities is not great at measuring all things. I have a higher IQ than my GF, but I and almost everyone that knows US would say she is smarter in the broader sense of the word. My greatest strength is in conceptual reasoning but even that is only in the 80%. If anyone tries to just measure on IQ, they will miss a great many things.

M: There are no analogies that are not flawed in some ways. My analogy was an accurate easily visually accessible way to show a parallel to your sort of thinking. You bore in and nitpick when you need to step back and see a bigger picture.

I disagree, but I already explained why. If you disagree with anything I gave in my summary then by all means do explain.

Change your perspective. Imagine that I am right and see if you can figure out a way to see that. Do it for yourself. I don't have to have you agree with me to be happy. I am not worried the world is about to collapse if you don't agree with me. I am not wedded to a need to be right.

I read what you say and try to understand what you write. I do not go into anything assuming that the other side is inherently wrong. I talk to people to challenge my ideas against theirs to see what makes the most sense. If there is a better argument then I switch over to that. I'm about improving ideas, and, not about being right. By that very nature its adversarial. I do not discuss things in my personal life that way, but, as a general rule it has provided the best outcomes in advancing my ideas.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
Would you say this entire thread serves as an example of the thread topic?

Haha I was just editing my post to say that. The explosion of dumbness in this thread does serve as a pretty amusing object lesson in how you are correct.

I meant the contents of most posts in this thread have been dumb, not your OP. Sorry for not being clearer!
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146
Haha I was just editing my post to say that. The explosion of dumbness in this thread does serve as a pretty amusing object lesson in how you are correct.

I meant the contents of most posts in this thread have been dumb, not your OP. Sorry for not being clearer!

I didn't assume you meant my OP. LOL! But thanks for actually caring enough to clarify.

Yes, I knew if I posted this thread and then stood back and watched what would probably happen. I'm glad it did.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Would you say this entire thread serves as an example of the thread topic?

God, yes. The duh-version into transgenderism proves it entirely. I mean, go ahead- find a more emotionally loaded & irrational topic for conservatives & I'll bow down before you. Well, other than "Lock her up!".
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Yes well, I do not think Google is on my horizon sadly. I do not have the cognitive abilities to get to that level. Sadly, its also true that peer reviewed research is frowned upon at Google. They company may have good intent, but, they are wrong about this topic.
You can't get to that level, but you can judge that level from your level.

You really are a hoot and a half.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146
God, yes. The duh-version into transgenderism proves it entirely. I mean, go ahead- find a more emotionally loaded & irrational topic for conservatives & I'll bow down before you. Well, other than "Lock her up!".

Anti-Vax
Climate Change denial.
Chemtrails.
False Flag conspiracies.
9/11 Truthers (love the "hologram" believers)
Alt-med beliefs.
Food fears.
GMO fears.
WiFi fears.
Jade rocks up your vajayjay.
Flat Earth
Mental Illness denial
AIDS denialism
Psychology denialism.
Moon Landing denialism (thanks brad)
Space denialism in general (see flat earth)

All of it identical science denial.

All of it a rejection of intellectualism and expertise.

All of it examples of Dunning Kruger.

Every anti-intellectualist looks for a foot in the door to try and tear down all of it. It seems in this thread they think that gender studies is an opportunity to do just that.
 
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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Um, yes. I know that I do not have the skills or ability to get a job at Google.
Do you think you have all the information that Google had about this case?

I ask because you're judging their choice to terminate the guy and making a blanket statement that they don't value peer-reviewed research.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Anti-Vax
Climate Change denial.
Chemtrails.
False Flag conspiracies.
9/11 Truthers (love the "hologram" believers)
Alt-med beliefs.
Food fears.
GMO fears.
WiFi fears.
Jade rocks up your vajayjay.
Flat Earth
Mental Illness denial
AIDS denialism
Psychology denialism.

All of it identical science denial.

All of it a rejection of intellectualism and expertise.

All of it examples of Dunning Kruger.

Every anti-intellectualist looks for a foot in the door to try and tear down all of it. It seems in this thread they think that gender studies is an opportunity to do just that.

Moon landing is popping up again.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146
Here is my take on gender studies:

I do not know nearly enough to form an independent opinion on the matter. Nor does anyone in this thread.

Therefore, logically and rationally I must defer to the expertise and consensus in science on the subject.

Period.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Do you think you have all the information that Google had about this case?

I ask because you're judging their choice to terminate the guy and making a blanket statement that they don't value peer-reviewed research.

My only comment on Google is in about the memo. This was Google's response.

This has been a very difficult time. I wanted to provide an update on the memo that was circulated over this past week.

First, let me say that we strongly support the right of Googlers to express themselves, and much of what was in that memo is fair to debate, regardless of whether a vast majority of Googlers disagree with it. However, portions of the memo violate our Code of Conduct and cross the line by advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace. Our job is to build great products for users that make a difference in their lives. To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK. It is contrary to our basic values and our Code of Conduct, which expects “each Googler to do their utmost to create a workplace culture that is free of harassment, intimidation, bias and unlawful discrimination.”

The memo has clearly impacted our co-workers, some of whom are hurting and feel judged based on their gender. Our co-workers shouldn’t have to worry that each time they open their mouths to speak in a meeting, they have to prove that they are not like the memo states, being “agreeable” rather than “assertive,” showing a “lower stress tolerance,” or being “neurotic.”

At the same time, there are co-workers who are questioning whether they can safely express their views in the workplace (especially those with a minority viewpoint). They too feel under threat, and that is also not OK. People must feel free to express dissent. So to be clear again, many points raised in the memo—such as the portions criticizing Google’s trainings, questioning the role of ideology in the workplace, and debating whether programs for women and underserved groups are sufficiently open to all—are important topics. The author had a right to express their views on those topics—we encourage an environment in which people can do this and it remains our policy to not take action against anyone for prompting these discussions.

The past few days have been very difficult for many at the company, and we need to find a way to debate issues on which we might disagree—while doing so in line with our Code of Conduct. I’d encourage each of you to make an effort over the coming days to reach out to those who might have different perspectives from your own. I will be doing the same.

I have been on work related travel in Africa and Europe the past couple of weeks and had just started my family vacation here this week. I have decided to return tomorrow as clearly there’s a lot more to discuss as a group—including how we create a more inclusive environment for all.

There were no harmful gender stereotypes that were advanced in the memo, as they were all backed by facts. To say that facts are harmful gender stereotypes is to be anti-science. If they think that overwhelming peer-reviewed research equates to harmful stereotypes then they logically must be anti peer-reviewed research. You cannot be for and against something.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Here is my take on gender studies:

I do not know nearly enough to form an independent opinion on the matter. Nor does anyone in this thread.

Therefore, logically and rationally I must defer to the expertise and consensus in science on the subject.

Period.

@interchange absolutely can. That is why I requested the only practicing psychologist on this forum to comment.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Do you think you have all the information that Google had about this case?

I ask because you're judging their choice to terminate the guy and making a blanket statement that they don't value peer-reviewed research.

Again, I am only commenting on Google's comments about the memo. If they had more information and that lead to him being fired, that is not relevant to me in this context. If they believe that his "memo" progressed harmful stereotypes then they are wrong in that narrow context.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
Do you think you have all the information that Google had about this case?

I ask because you're judging their choice to terminate the guy and making a blanket statement that they don't value peer-reviewed research.

I don't even know why this is being argued. The engineer who wrote that memo made a number of statements that misrepresented empirical research and/or relied on dubious or contested scientific theories as factual so the idea that they were all backed by facts is laughably wrong. People are easily duped into thinking his basis was factual because he cited research but they apparently did not take into account that there's plenty of research that says the opposite which Demore did not cite or rebut in his argument. This was most likely due to Demore's ignorance of the topic, but that kind of gets back to why he shouldn't have written the memo in the first place.

In short the guy made a bunch of dubious statements that were highly insulting to women, making him a toxic member of almost any team. Firing him was a no-brainer.
 
Reactions: jackstar7

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146
@interchange absolutely can. That is why I requested the only practicing psychologist on this forum to comment.

Considering the fact that gender identification may extend to biological as well and mental issues, a lone psychologist is not enough. You need a consensus of psychiatry and psychology.

Anything other than that is merely an uninformed or partially informed opinion.

The fact of the matter is this subject is still being studied. The world's greatest experts have not yet reached a consensus. So who the fuck is anyone on this board to make any determination at all?

Dunning Kruger.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
Google was right to divert resources away from its younger male employees and potential hires.

It’s a biological fact that studies have found testosterone makes men, especially younger single men agressive.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16483890/

Predictions were that that testosterone would rise at puberty to moderate levels, which supported reproductive physiology and behavior. Sexual arousal and challenges involving young males would raise testosterone levels further. In turn, this would facilitate direct competitive behavior, including aggression.

Direct application of testosterone shows increases in manic symptoms.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/481565

Conclusions Testosterone administration, 600 mg/wk increased ratings of manic symptoms in normal men. This effect, however, was not uniform across individuals; most showed little psychological change, whereas a few developed prominent effects.

Now older men and married men have decreased testosterone making them less likely to be aggressive.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200907/sex-violence-and-hormones

Young men experience peaks in criminalbehavior and testosterone production at around the same ages. When they marry, men experience a decline in both testosterone production and criminal offending when compared with single men of the same age.


It seems that marriage has a civilizing effect on men because it reduces their testosterone levels.

Now some attribute being aggressive with being a positive for leadership in business. This is not accurate. Assertiveness is actually what most businesses are looking for when grooming potential leaders.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes...lity-a-key-characteristic-of-a-strong-leader/

Since the 1980s, business leaders have used personality tests and behavioral predictors to better understand themselves and their team members. With the goal of maximizing team performance, understanding how differing management and work styles interact provides an invaluable springboard for forward movement; simply knowing how to communicate effectively with other team members can greatly increase the success of collaborative efforts and minimize conflict. As with any science, however, incomplete information can create problems rather than solutions.



With few exceptions, leadership training programs have often painted a somewhat skewed picture of the quintessential successful leader: decisive, visionary, passionate and, all too often, impatient and brash (although this is sometimes described as “direct”). Some of the reasoning behind the notion that success requires an element of abrasiveness arose from early confusion of the terms “aggressive” versus “assertive.”

Seeing as how important team work is in Silicon Valley and the evidence of business benefit to diverse teams:
https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
Striving to increase workplace diversity is not an empty slogan — it is a good business decision. A 2015 McKinsey report on 366 public companies found that those in the top quartile for ethnic and racial diversity in management were 35% more likely to have financial returns above their industry mean, and those in the top quartile for gender diversity were 15% more likely to have returns above the industry mean.

In a global analysis of 2,400 companies conducted by Credit Suisse, organizations with at least one female board member yielded higher return on equity and higher net income growth than those that did not have any women on the board.

In recent years a body of research has revealed another, more nuanced benefit of workplace diversity: nonhomogenous teams are simply smarter. Working with people who are different from you may challenge your brain to overcome its stale ways of thinking and sharpen its performance. Let’s dig into why diverse teams are smarter.

Is it any wonder Google wanted to increase its employee diversity by pulling away from younger males who as a group evidence shows exhibit more aggressive and criminal behavior detrimental to the success of a diverse team.

Now stereotyping young men as more aggressive may seem like its negative but as it is backed by facts it’s obviously not.

 
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gamervivek

Senior member
Jan 17, 2011
490
53
91
Anyone that tires to make the case that blacks are intellectually inferior because of their average IQ score would be wrong. IQ, while being a good at measuring mental abilities is not great at measuring all things. I have a higher IQ than my GF, but I and almost everyone that knows US would say she is smarter in the broader sense of the word. My greatest strength is in conceptual reasoning but even that is only in the 80%. If anyone tries to just measure on IQ, they will miss a great many things.

IQ doesn't purport to measure all things. Intelligence, yes, 'things' like smartness or cunning, no.

But life is unfair and people who are good at one cognitive task tend also to be good at another, and another and another...which gives rise to the general factor of intelligence. IQ is just a representation of that,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)

As for the black-white difference, I've posted on this forum before how for a similar IQ the nurture is in favor of blacks. Such great is the American academia that people graduate believing just the opposite.

Same is the case with the male-female difference. Unfortunately, Damore, like you, isn't even doing a counter-offensive, he's in the same situation as the erstwhile Harvard President, Larry Summers. Though to his credit, he's willing to go to court for it.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Anti-Vax
Climate Change denial.
Chemtrails.
False Flag conspiracies.
9/11 Truthers (love the "hologram" believers)
Alt-med beliefs.
Food fears.
GMO fears.
WiFi fears.
Jade rocks up your vajayjay.
Flat Earth
Mental Illness denial
AIDS denialism
Psychology denialism.
Moon Landing denialism (thanks brad)
Space denialism in general (see flat earth)

All of it identical science denial.

All of it a rejection of intellectualism and expertise.

All of it examples of Dunning Kruger.

Every anti-intellectualist looks for a foot in the door to try and tear down all of it. It seems in this thread they think that gender studies is an opportunity to do just that.
The very premise of this thread is a perfect example of Dunning Kruger effect imo.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Considering the fact that gender identification may extend to biological as well and mental issues, a lone psychologist is not enough. You need a consensus of psychiatry and psychology.

Anything other than that is merely an uninformed or partially informed opinion.

The fact of the matter is this subject is still being studied. The world's greatest experts have not yet reached a consensus. So who the fuck is anyone on this board to make any determination at all?

Dunning Kruger.

I'm a psychiatrist and I'm a psychoanalytic candidate, not a psychologist. My personal feeling is that gender and its determinants, biological and developmental, are so complicated that there will never be an answer that can be generally applied; we would always need extensive evaluation of an individual to render an opinion. Even so, such a thing could never be objectively validated.

I think it doesn't matter at all. It's easy to observe that some people present with genders different than what might be assumed from their observable sex characteristics, and both sex and gender expressions may be straightforward or ambiguous, comfortable or conflicted. In the end, they are just parts of what makes a person who they are, just the same as any other thing. I think all people deserve basic respect, autonomy, and compassion regardless of their differences. Providing these does not restrict you from disagreeing with their choices, and neither does it obligate you to change your life for their benefit. If, however, you provide deserved respect, autonomy, and compassion, there is a likelihood you will make some changes to benefit another because you feel it's the right thing to do.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146
The very premise of this thread is a perfect example of Dunning Kruger effect imo.

Is projection an inherent part of the new right-wing?

Seriously. Because it's something the right-wing has been doing a lot of lately. And it's so transparently projection as to be rather pathetic.

Nowhere in this thread or OP have I claimed to know more than any expert in any field. Nor have I argued against a scientific consensus.

So please tell me, where is the Dunning Kruger in the premise of this thread?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
I am becoming lonely. There are more people and fewer humans.
I don't know. I noticed that recently Schumer and McConnell had some great things to say about each other indicating to me there may yet be some political self awareness that sets a floor to how deeply disgusting politicians may be willing to go. I also believe that stress levels and conservatism track parallel. I believe too that personal info devices and an ability to express oneself to an audience facilitates showcasing the worst of our natures as being an asshole starts to feel safe. Also I have seen data indicating we are still advancing toward liberal ideals on a world wide scale. Perhaps most importantly I believe we created God in our true image with new copies appearing every time a child is born.

We may be lonely, but we are not alone. The kingdom of heaven is within.
 
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