The Dark Side of Islam

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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An ex-Muslim explains what Islam is about and the Koran really states in it's text.

A major point he makes, right at the beginning, is that Fundamentalist Muslims, aka Muslims who take their religion seriously, is the same as Militant Muslims, aka terrorists. He quotes the Koran and general Muslim teachings to prove his point.

Is this why the Middle East is such a mess?

There's a lot of sectarian genocide, which always get worse after a state falls. This is seen in Iraq after the fall of Saddam. This violence continues today unabated.

Currently, a lot of people are predicting that if Syria falls into the hands of the terrorist rebels, Syrian Christians will be executed in mass.
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,851
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81
Audio

An ex-Muslim explains what Islam is about and the Koran really states in it's text.

A major point he makes, right at the beginning, is that Fundamentalist Muslims, aka Muslims who take their religion seriously, is the same as Militant Muslims, aka terrorists. He quotes the Koran and general Muslim teachings to prove his point.

Is this why the Middle East is such a mess?

There's a lot of sectarian genocide, which always get worse after a state falls. This is seen in Iraq after the fall of Saddam. This violence continues today unabated.

Currently, a lot of people are predicting that if Syria falls into the hands of the terrorist rebels, Syrian Christians will be executed in mass.

It's no different than militant Christians bombing abortion clinics. Any religion used to suppress others is a religion which needs to be slowly and systematically eradicated from the planet. The abrahamic cults would be the best place to start.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Is this why the Middle East is such a mess?

Be wary of propaganda.

For a good part of the answer to your question, look to the actions of the west - first England, then the US - in the region.

Look to the history - the building of fundamentalist Islamic forces by the west to divide the 'enemy' and conquer, see the history with Lawrence of Arabia, of the division of the Middle East by England a century ago and the formation of states that would serve western interests.

See what happens when a region is the target of great powers after its resources.

Oh by the way, you might look at centuries of European wars betweeen factions such as Catholics and Protestants and ask 'why were they such a mess'.

You could toss in the conflicts between Christians and Jews at times - including massacres of Jews - and ask why those were such a mess.

There are times Suuni and Shiite get along fine, and times they don't.

Recall for example Al Queda blowing up one of the most sacred sites in Iraq - in order to cause conflict between the faction, for their own reasons.

But recall the larger context to that action - the US invasion and occupation of the country.

The answer does not lie in hating Muslims as some sort of barbarians.
 

Pray To Jesus

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Mar 14, 2011
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What does jihad mean to you? What does it mean as the Koran says it?

Does the vast majority of Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of God?

Is Islam a religion, or is it both a political system and a religion?

Look up the answers to those questions and post them here. We will see who's falling for the propaganda.
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,851
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What does jihad mean to you? What does it mean as the Koran says it?

Does the vast majority of Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of God?

Is Islam a religion, or is it both a political system and a religion?

Look up the answers to those questions and post them here. We will see who's falling for the propaganda.

The Muslims that believe the Koran is the literal word of God are as dumb as the Christians who believe the Bible is the literal word of God. They are both equally stupid; it's kind of like watching people compete in the special olympics.
 

Pray To Jesus

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Mar 14, 2011
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It's no different than militant Christians bombing abortion clinics. Any religion used to suppress others is a religion which needs to be slowly and systematically eradicated from the planet. The abrahamic cults would be the best place to start.

A lot of people who call themselves Christians are false Christians. They call themselves Christians in order to deceive the world and conceal their agenda. What better way to destroy an enemy than to do it from within? The classic Trojan Horse strategy.

There's a huge movement right now where pagans call themselves Christians yet practice gnosticism (paganism) instead, such as the Mormons.

Jesus even told the world of this fact, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
 

Pray To Jesus

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Mar 14, 2011
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The Muslims that believe the Koran is the literal word of God are as dumb as the Christians who believe the Bible is the literal word of God. They are both equally stupid; it's kind of like watching people compete in the special olympics.

Answer the question as stated instead of this weak deflection. Keep Christians out of this thread. We are not discussing Christians. If you want, make a new thread discussing the evils of Christianity.

----------------------------------
Please re-read the rules of the Discussion Club.

You do not control this place.
Civil discussion and no thread derailing or personal attacks.

You have no problem bringing in Christians as long as it suits your purpose. As quoted from the post above.

A lot of people who call themselves Christians are false Christians. They call themselves Christians in order to deceive the world and conceal their agenda. What better way to destroy an enemy than to do it from within? The classic Trojan Horse strategy.

EK
Admin
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,851
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A lot of people who call themselves Christians are false Christians. They call themselves Christians in order to deceive the world and conceal their agenda. What better way to destroy an enemy than to do it from within? The classic Trojan Horse strategy.

There's a huge movement right now where pagans call themselves Christians yet practice gnosticism (paganism) instead, such as the Mormons.

Jesus even told the world of this fact, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Jesus condoned killing children too; he's such a good guy! This is why it's bad to take old books literally, that were written by men to control women and give themselves power at the same time.

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,851
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Answer the question as stated instead of this weak deflection. Keep Christians out of this thread. We are not discussing Christians. If you want, make a new thread discussing the evils of Christianity.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of calling one religion bad while acting as if another one is somehow better.

The abrahamic religions are all equally full of crap, and people that take the words written in these old tomes to be literal are pretty much morons.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of calling one religion bad while acting as if another one is somehow better.

The abrahamic religions are all equally full of crap, and people that take the words written in these old tomes to be literal are pretty much morons.

Anyone who follow a religious text literally word for word is going to seem insane for doing so.

Muslims all agree that the Koran is not inspired, but is God's word manifest.

A Fundamentalist Muslims is a Muslim who believe the Koran is the literal word of God, and try to live their life according to the literal wording in the Koran.

What percentage of Muslims believe the Koran, word for word, is the literal word of God?

What percentage of Muslims act on that belief?
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
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Anyone who follow a religious text literally word for word is going to seem insane for doing so.

I agree with you here 100%.

Muslims all agree that the Koran is not inspired, but is God's word manifest.

I wouldn't agree with this - there are plenty of Muslims that view the Koran as the same way many modern Christians view the Bible - as a book of beautiful poetry which contains some gems of knowledge.

A Fundamentalist Muslims is a Muslim who believe the Koran is the literal word of God, and try to live their life according to the literal wording in the Koran.

What percentage of Muslims believe the Koran, word for word, is the literal word of God?

What percentage of Muslims act on that belief?

I don't know the answer to the last 3 sentences, but I can say that there are over a billion Muslims on this planet (as of 2010 the figure was calculated to be 1.6 billion), and many of them are in the same moderate group as many of the Christians on this planet. There are a population of them that are complete nutcases that would gladly blow up women and babies in a suicide bomb to get to some imaginary place though, and the world would really be a better place without them here.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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There are nutcases in every religion.

I have interacted with well over a few dozen people of the Muslim faith both within the US and over in the ME and P.I. and none expressed hatred of the system or tried to convert me to their religion.

Though in each area; those did know of a few nutcases.
Condemn then, criticize them and move on. Ignoring them was the best recourse; do not give them any virtual sustenance.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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A lot of people who call themselves Christians are false Christians. They call themselves Christians in order to deceive the world and conceal their agenda. What better way to destroy an enemy than to do it from within? The classic Trojan Horse strategy.

There's a huge movement right now where pagans call themselves Christians yet practice gnosticism (paganism) instead, such as the Mormons.

Jesus even told the world of this fact, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Why do you have the authority to determine this so called false Christian?

The term Christian was used to indicate one who followed Christ.
That can mean the teachings, behavior or the belief.

Where does it state how one should follow and such a determination be truthful?
 

ElMonoDelMar

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2004
1,163
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This has "No True Scotsman" written all over it. OP has defined what a Christian and a Muslim are so he can discount anyone that doesn't fit into those buckets.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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If you are truly interested, your best bet would be to go down to your local Mosque and ask them about their religion.
Your not going to find enough/any? Muslims here to get a proper perspective.
Pull a Paul Acts 17:16-34

IT IS BIBLICAL TO FIND COMMON GROUND WITH PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS - including Islam! Be biblical, not polemical. Much of what passes for 'Christian' criticism and fear of Islam is really, in my opinion, cultural bigotry justified by a shallow reference to religion. When you are person to person, or person to group (like Paul), be Biblical and find common ground, find somethign to affirm (if you can't find anything to affirm in the other's religion, they are either a Satanist, or you are ungenerous in spirit and should just stay quiet).

http://mikemoses.typepad.com/purple...le-say-abouthow-to-treat-other-religions.html
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
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Answer the question as stated instead of this weak deflection. Keep Christians out of this thread. We are not discussing Christians. If you want, make a new thread discussing the evils of Christianity.

I'm sorry, but this is discussion club. You don't get to try to tell people what to argue, and you certainly don't get to direct where the thread goes. As long as the thread stays civil and constructive, it's a good thread. However, you seem pretty confrontational. Instead of starting a discussion, you're being accusatory.

As someone else already point out, fundamentalist muslims are really no different that fundamentalist christians. Crazy is crazy. Christianity is incredibly political. Tha's fairly obvious. Since the unstated goal of pretty much every religion is to create a powerbase and expand it, religion and politics are step-brothers. Perhaps they're even immediate family members. Islam isn't much different in that regard either.

Your post about people 'posing' as christians is particularly interesting. I'd wager that you don't practice christianity precisely as it is taught in the Bible. So what, exactly, makes you or any other 'practicing' christian the single point of authority? After all, isn't the Westborough Baptist Church practicing a form of Chrisitianity, by following some precepts laid out in the bible? Do they have as much right as you to claim to be Chrsitians?

It seems on the level of tinfoil-hat paranoia to suggest that there is some type of conspiracy by non-christians to foul up christianity. In fact it's pretty much a ludicrous accusation.

The islamic faith is no different than christianity. Sane, moderate people practice both and have productive and positive lives. Insane extremists practice both, and we all have to deal with the repercussions. Christianity has a bit of an edge simply because most of the countries that practice christianity are much further along the development chain, especially technologically. Higher education levels result in far more moderate thinking for the most part.

I think I've touched on the main points in your posts. Since any religious discussion here tends to degenerate quickly, it probably would have been better if you'd started and tried to maintain this thread in a fairly civil manner. It's only going to go downhill.
 
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ThinClient

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Jan 28, 2013
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When you're willing to cast aside healthy skepticism in exchange for pure mindless devotion no matter the cost, it is in this common yet almost exclusively religious mindset that you'll find people not only capable of profoundly evil deeds, but anxious to get them done.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Why do you have the authority to determine this so called false Christian?

The term Christian was used to indicate one who followed Christ.
That can mean the teachings, behavior or the belief.

Where does it state how one should follow and such a determination be truthful?

Well, if you were Jewish, you'd be following Old Testament rules. Christians use this nice little cop-out called the Abrahamic Covenant being fulfilled in Christ's death, so those old rules don't apply (phew).

What rules apply then?

The new covenant came with rules beginning in Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount.

This passage is, essentially, the answer to your question.



...that is, if you believe in all that fairy tale nonsense.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,613
6,169
126
If the Christian Bible contained only the 4 Gospels, it would be a very good basis for a religion. Unfortunately it has the writings of Paul and others that begin to drag things back towards the Old Testament and of course the Old Testament itself.

That wouldn't make it True, but it would make it far less prone to violent acts.

Islam has the misfortune of being based almost exclusively on the Old Testament. That makes it extra prone to violent acts.

Judaism is pretty much the same as Islam, Fortunately most Jews are very liberal Cultural Jews. The few Fundamentalist Jews are extra harsh and prone to violence. Their negative affect is limited by number, but also because their focus is very narrow, meaning that Israel and fellow Jews are practically their only concern. AKA, they don't care about converting non-Jews, their only concern with non-Jews is when non-Jews encroach on Israel.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,222
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I don't know the answer to the last 3 sentences, but I can say that there are over a billion Muslims on this planet (as of 2010 the figure was calculated to be 1.6 billion), and many of them are in the same moderate group as many of the Christians on this planet. There are a population of them that are complete nutcases that would gladly blow up women and babies in a suicide bomb to get to some imaginary place though, and the world would really be a better place without them here.

I think it may be fair to say that percentage wise, in the modern world, more Muslims tend to be Koran literalists than Christians who are bible literalists, though there are plenty of both in either religion. Then again, not very long ago in western history, virtually every Christian was a fundie. And therein is the rub.

Western culture has undergone a transformation by way of political liberalism (in the broad historic sense, not the modern sense of liberal v. conservation) and secular humanism. The religions of the west have experienced some degree of transformation as a result. But this is more a case of the religion bending to cultural change than the culture bending to religion.

Most of the Islamic world has undergone no such cultural renaissance as yet. However, there is no reason to believe that Islam is the reason for this. Christians were every bit as backward of Muslims at the inception of this cultural shift we've experienced in the west. For example, in the Christian west they used to execute people for practicing witchcraft just as they still do in parts of the Muslim world such as Saudi Arabia. If "fundamental" differences between the two religions, i.e. differences in their governing texts, are the explanation for modern differences in this sort of behavior, then the Christian west would never have behaved so barbarically, but it did, and for the vast majority of its existence. This tendency to not interpret the Bible literally and to curb some of the most inhumane aspects of Christianity is in fact a very recent development in the west.

Cultural backwardness is the reason why so many people would take a biblical text literally. The OP's fallacy is that he wants to use war like or barbaric passages in the Koran to explain why so many Muslims would take the Koran so literally. Yet there is no relationship between the two. What is actually in a religious text bears little if any relationship to people's tendency to view it literally.

Biblical literalism will tend to diminish as cultural liberalism advances. Warlike and barbaric content in the texts is beside the point. Those portions will simply be seen as metaphorical, or otherwise re-interpreted to be consistent with modern liberal values. When we see some Christians in the west, for example, not believing in a literal hell, believing that non-Christians aren't necessarily damned, or being tolerant of homosexuality, that is an example of religion bending to culture, not a demonstration of Christianity's so-called superiority over another religion.

Culture and religion tend to influence each other in a never-ending causal feedback loop. I maintain that the principle function of religion in society is to justify the existing cultural (and sometimes political) order of things. It tends to put the brakes on change as best it can. It did so in the west for hundreds of years with its selective opposition to science and to equality based on gender, sexual preference, and sometimes race. Indeed, it continues in its attempt to put the brakes on these changes. As it does in the Muslim world.

The Muslim world is simply on a different cultural timeline, probably 100-200 years behind the west in many respects. A higher degree of textual literalism in religious belief is just a symptom of that. In the longrun, however, the contents of the texts matter very little. They mean whatever the practitioners of the religion want them to mean.
 
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