The Dark Side of Islam

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v-600

Senior member
Nov 1, 2010
488
3
76
I was just reading the convert or die comments in this thread Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god? and remembered watching this video. Rather than take that thread further off topic, this one seemed like a better place to post this. Islam is a peaceful religion

The video is one of 6, the others are available on youtube or direct from the Oxford Union with links from the youtube page. I've posted this one as it is the one I think that is most eloquent and argues most effectively and directly against the comments I read in both this thread and the other I've linked to.
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
I was just reading the convert or die comments in this thread Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god? and remembered watching this video. Rather than take that thread further off topic, this one seemed like a better place to post this. Islam is a peaceful religion

The video is one of 6, the others are available on youtube or direct from the Oxford Union with links from the youtube page. I've posted this one as it is the one I think that is most eloquent and argues most effectively and directly against the comments I read in both this thread and the other I've linked to.

Islam is no different than Christianity, although many close-minded people would like to suggest otherwise. There's a long history of very violent actions in the name of God and Jesus. Fanatics tend to be fanatics, no matter what the religion.

I struggle with the double-standard of current Christians turning a blind eye to their past, and holding Islam up to a microscope. It's that whole 'cast the first stone' thing.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
81
91
While all religion is dangerous, especially the abrahamic cults, it's hard to argue that islam isn't the worst of the lot in this particular moment in history. Modern Christians are a lot less likely to be fundamentalists and there aren't many or any modern christian theocracies, unlike most of the middle east where the majority of these people take their religion very seriously.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
There are nutcases in every religion.

Unfortunately views that we'd consider extreme/fundamentalist are a lot more mainstream in Islam than they are in any other religion. Look at places like Pakistan, entire countries where views that are comparable to Fred Phelps's are the norm.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Islam is no different than Christianity, although many close-minded people would like to suggest otherwise. There's a long history of very violent actions in the name of God and Jesus. Fanatics tend to be fanatics, no matter what the religion.

I struggle with the double-standard of current Christians turning a blind eye to their past, and holding Islam up to a microscope. It's that whole 'cast the first stone' thing.

Christianity was just as bad as Islam back in the day. Nowadays though it has been mostly neutered where as militant Islam is very much mainstream.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Christianity was just as bad as Islam back in the day. Nowadays though it has been mostly neutered where as militant Islam is very much mainstream.

Christians are in the rich countries with some freedom while the Muslim countries are poor and run by dictators(helped along by the Christian countries who prop up those very dictators).
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I recommend any believing any of this DRAMA-DOGMA take a non-secular class at your local college on religions of the world or two.

You will learn a lot how most have the same starting ground and virtues.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,944
5,569
136
I recommend any believing any of this DRAMA-DOGMA take a non-secular class at your local college on religions of the world or two.

You will learn a lot how most have the same starting ground and virtues.

Where they started and what they preach isn't nearly as important as what they are actually doing today. Contrary to what's been said in this thread, I don't recall a Christian group shooting up an abortion clinic. I also don't seem to have any memory of recent Christian terrorist activity. How many people have Christian terrorists killed in the last 50 years? I honestly don't know, but I'd bet long odds it's darn few.
It's been some time since I've attended any church functions, but I don't recall the preacher ever calling for acts of violence, and no one ever offered me an afterlife bonus for blowing someone up.

200 years ago everyone was guilty, religion was used as a shield and a weapon, most of the major religions have toned it down since then.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
I also don't seem to have any memory of recent Christian terrorist activity.

There's the IRA, they've been quiet for a few years but they were pretty nasty for a while. There have been a small number of violent attacks on abortion providers in the US but we're talking a tiny number of individuals. You'd certainly never be able to raise an army of Christian jihadists to say, fight an insurgency in Syria.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Christians are in the rich countries with some freedom while the Muslim countries are poor and run by dictators(helped along by the Christian countries who prop up those very dictators).

Those countries are often poor and repressive because of Islam. The most successful Muslim country out there (Turkey) is largely that way because the military has forced secularism on their government.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,944
5,569
136
There's the IRA, they've been quiet for a few years but they were pretty nasty for a while. There have been a small number of violent attacks on abortion providers in the US but we're talking a tiny number of individuals. You'd certainly never be able to raise an army of Christian jihadists to say, fight an insurgency in Syria.

I'd forgotten the IRA. Though it seems to me that religious concerns weren't their primary focus, more of a secondary complaint. I'll have to look into that a bit more as I don't know enough about the movement to have any sort of valid opinion.
 

v-600

Senior member
Nov 1, 2010
488
3
76
Likewise. The IRA were before my time, however I'd make the point as in the video above that the majority if not all terrorist bombings are politically focussed rather than religious. It just so happens to be carried out by religious people. I guess you could just as well say that terrorist bombings are carried out by the extreme political right as much as by saying catholics (in the case of the IRA).
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
It's no different than militant Christians bombing abortion clinics. Any religion used to suppress others is a religion which needs to be slowly and systematically eradicated from the planet. The abrahamic cults would be the best place to start.

Utter nonsense. Please tell us how many aborionists Christians have killed in the last decade and how this is "no different" from the constant massacres by Muslims perpetuated on a daily basis across the world.
 

TheThirdMan

Member
Jul 5, 2011
113
11
81
As someone married to a muslim and someone who goes to a mosque frequently I hope I can bring something new to this discussion.

Pray To Jesus' original post just smacks of someone interested only in confirming his existing bias. These sort of audio recordings and interviews are in all religions. Scientologists have recordings of ex-christians saying how they were deceived and the religion is evil, muslims have recordings of converts saying how their atheist lifestyle was evil etc etc. There's no shortage of people willing to offer up their past beliefs for propaganda use. It brings nothing new to the discussion.

But to his main point about the correlation between religious beliefs and conflict. There might be something of truth in there but not as much as he might wish. The argument put forward is essentially that a person who reads the koran and takes it literally will consequently become violent person and use violence to terrorise. The main issue here is that two people may read it literally and come to two different conclusions. One may think violence is called for, the other may think not. But most importantly, knowing dozens of muslims and having met hundreds, not a single one has ever thought violence was part of their religion. Indeed they are quite vehement in the peaceful nature of the religion (Islam does after all translate as peace. )

Whether a holy book is the literal word of god or not is not really important in this discussion- the interpretation is everything. Christians know (or should know) that the bible is not supposed to be the literal word of god, but instead inspired by god. But that has not stopped them from still using it to justify the same actions as muslim terrorists, or the other end of the spectrum, to inspire incredible acts of courage and charity.

Really, it is the muslim leaders who are responsible for the interpretation of the koran. There are many schools of thought regarding this. The most important one for this discussion is the Wahhabi school of thought. The OP is nearest to truth with this school of thought. It is the most rigid and intollerant religious movement of modern times (it started in the mid 19th century) that has recently spread around the world, primarily thanks to saudi money. Osama was a wahhabi, the taliban follow a similar school of thought to wahhabiism- pretty much all islamic terrorists will be wahhabi or follow a similar school of thought. These people do not read the koran alone and come to their own conclusions. They learnt their islam, not from books, but from preachers. This is the salient point here- the source of the violence is not the book, but the preacher.

So it is not true for the OP to state that the book (and consequently the religion) inspire violence. There are these "hate preachers" in all abrahamic religions. It could be argued they have a greater hold in islamic nations as they are poorer and less developed.


I think it's perhaps even more important to point out that you would need to either ignore or be ignorant of the entire history of these nations and how their society works to really believe what the OP says. The frequent mistake when talking about the middle east and islamic nations (and africa, and the indian subcontinent) is to think that they are a group of nations with a common religion. The national boundaries in these areas are almost irrelevant. The main driving force behind these violences is usually racial or at least cultural. The national border are relatively new inventions in these places and do not follow the traditional divides of tribe and culture. You will notice the religious divides match the tribal divides. Syria is a great example. The divides are, from the outside, seemingly religious. But a cursory glance at the situation would show it is tribal. People have a great loyalty to their tribe and it helps their leaders to justify it in their religion. There a historical grievances between these tribes that go back a long way and are in no way routed in any religious ideal.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,111
926
126
Islam is neither a race, nor a religion. It is a mode of governance and a prescription for carrying out deeds, ie., Sharia law. It's like a constitution of the damned. It will never demand my respect, nor will it's followers. The USA will never yield to the demands of Islam, except in the White House, by Barry Soetoro, a Muslim Brotherhood member. Bada Bing!
 
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ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
It's no different than militant Christians bombing abortion clinics. Any religion used to suppress others is a religion which needs to be slowly and systematically eradicated from the planet. The abrahamic cults would be the best place to start.

I agree.
 

Remobz

Platinum Member
Jun 9, 2005
2,564
37
91
What scares me is the alarming rate of modern Muslims who are home grown turning terrorists.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
What scares me is the alarming rate of modern Muslims who are home grown turning terrorists.

If they're willing to join Christianity, they'd be willing to join another religion that preaches world domination through indoctrination. Don't be surprised at all when they start coming from home more and more.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
It's no different than militant Christians bombing abortion clinics. Any religion used to suppress others is a religion which needs to be slowly and systematically eradicated from the planet. The abrahamic cults would be the best place to start.
always somebody trying to deflect from the truth......nice try though...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
I'm sorry, but this is discussion club. You don't get to try to tell people what to argue, and you certainly don't get to direct where the thread goes. As long as the thread stays civil and constructive, it's a good thread. However, you seem pretty confrontational. Instead of starting a discussion, you're being accusatory.

As someone else already point out, fundamentalist muslims are really no different that fundamentalist christians. Crazy is crazy. Christianity is incredibly political. Tha's fairly obvious. Since the unstated goal of pretty much every religion is to create a powerbase and expand it, religion and politics are step-brothers. Perhaps they're even immediate family members. Islam isn't much different in that regard either.

Your post about people 'posing' as christians is particularly interesting. I'd wager that you don't practice christianity precisely as it is taught in the Bible. So what, exactly, makes you or any other 'practicing' christian the single point of authority? After all, isn't the Westborough Baptist Church practicing a form of Chrisitianity, by following some precepts laid out in the bible? Do they have as much right as you to claim to be Chrsitians?

It seems on the level of tinfoil-hat paranoia to suggest that there is some type of conspiracy by non-christians to foul up christianity. In fact it's pretty much a ludicrous accusation.

The islamic faith is no different than christianity. Sane, moderate people practice both and have productive and positive lives. Insane extremists practice both, and we all have to deal with the repercussions. Christianity has a bit of an edge simply because most of the countries that practice christianity are much further along the development chain, especially technologically. Higher education levels result in far more moderate thinking for the most part.

I think I've touched on the main points in your posts. Since any religious discussion here tends to degenerate quickly, it probably would have been better if you'd started and tried to maintain this thread in a fairly civil manner. It's only going to go downhill.
He is right...this thread is about Muslims and not Christians. He is not dictating how this thread should go....so much as he is dictating that this thread needs to keep on topic!! That topic being -- Muslims. You cans tart your own thread about Christians!
 
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