The Depth of the Danger of Iraq Occupation . . .

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Los Angeles Times

History has a way of repeating itself, does it not ? - CLIP:

That Iraq would become a troublesome source of guerrilla tactics should come as no surprise to any student of T.E. Lawrence, better known as Lawrence of Arabia. Lawrence is considered by many strategists to be the father of guerrilla warfare. He articulated a powerful treatise on the topic in his classic book, "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom."

During World War I, Lawrence's guerrilla victories against the Turkish forces occupying the Arabian peninsula provided a stunning contrast to the simultaneous slaughter occurring in the trenches of Europe. Although Lawrence claimed that his vision of warfare came to him as he lay dazed in a feverish state, he was actually formalizing a form of war practiced by Arab tribes for centuries.

Lawrence's thesis was that a successful rebellion required three elements. First, the rebels must have an unassailable base, not merely a physical base of operations but also a psychological fortress in the mind of every soldier willing to die for his convictions.

Second, in what he called the "doctrine of acreage" (what strategists now call the force-to-space ratio), Lawrence stated that an insurgent victory required that the size of the occupying force must be insufficient to pacify the contested area.

Finally, the guerrillas must have a friendly population. Although the population need not be actively friendly, it must not be hostile to the point of betraying the insurgents. This support can be generated either from fear of retaliation or sympathy for the guerrilla cause or both.

The application of Lawrence's theory to the current military situation in Iraq is not comforting. First, the rebels seem to possess an unassailable base in both physical and psychological terms.

Within Iraq, hostile forces have demonstrated an ongoing ability to launch numerous daily attacks. The continuing inability to capture Saddam Hussein is the most significant evidence of this problem. Externally, there is a base of bordering states like Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran that are failing to stop volunteers from infiltrating Iraq. American troops have found foreign passports on the bodies of enemy forces killed. Perhaps more troubling, however, is the psychological "base" ? the mind of the enemy. When religious extremism is mixed with nationalistic fervor, it cements to form the bricks of unshakeable conviction. As Lawrence himself noted, "An opinion can be argued with; a conviction is best shot."

Then there is the force-to-space ratio of coalition forces, which is clearly inadequate. The Americans have only about 130,000 soldiers in Iraq. To match the number of soldiers per inhabitant as the United States has in Kosovo would require 526,000 troops in Iraq.

Finally, guerrilla victories can work to slowly undermine U.S. credibility while simultaneously building support and gaining recruits for the insurgents. Over time, guerrilla tactics tend to frustrate conventional troops, which are increasingly likely to overreact by humiliating men and offending women and thereby alienating the local population. Though Iraqi guerrillas lack the necessary firepower and manpower to forcibly remove the Americans, Lawrence would argue that should not be their proper objective. Even while suffering tactical defeats, the guerrillas could erode the will of the Americans and thereby achieve a strategic victory. As Henry Kissinger succinctly stated: "The guerrilla wins by not losing. The army loses by not winning."

After liberating the region from the Turks in World War I, Britain ruled the newly formed country of Iraq under a mandate from the League of Nations. The population's gratitude for having been freed from 400 years of Ottoman oppression was short-lived. There were uprisings and assassinations of British soldiers and civilian administrators.

Lawrence was sent back to Baghdad to report on conditions there. He wrote these haunting words: "The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows. We are today not far from a disaster."
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
"Lawrence's thesis was that a successful rebellion required three elements. First, the rebels must have an unassailable base, not merely a physical base of operations but also a psychological fortress in the mind of every soldier willing to die for his convictions.

Second, in what he called the "doctrine of acreage" (what strategists now call the force-to-space ratio), Lawrence stated that an insurgent victory required that the size of the occupying force must be insufficient to pacify the contested area.

Finally, the guerrillas must have a friendly population. Although the population need not be actively friendly, it must not be hostile to the point of betraying the insurgents. This support can be generated either from fear of retaliation or sympathy for the guerrilla cause or both."

[...]

"He wrote these haunting words: "The people of England (substitute America here) have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows. We are today not far from a disaster."


Oh brother, some of you people are in for a very rude awakening in Iraq.

I wonder, will it be like the end in Viet Nam where everyone in the USA denied voting for Nixon? Hmmmm.....
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
0
0
I wonder, will it be like the end in Viet Nam where everyone in the USA denied voting for Nixon? Hmmmm.....

Vietnam wasn't Nixon's fault, that was Kennedy-Johnson. Nixon did very well with what he had to deal with in Vietnam, Watergate was Nixon's disaster.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
If you want to place 'Administration at Fault' blame, you need to go back
to when we introduced our Combat-Advisors to the French, that would be
Eisenhower in the early/mid 50's, Dien Bien Phu fell in 1954

An Khe Pass, where the French Moblie Group 100 was massacared in 1954.
I was attached to the Army 1st Cav in 'Nam in '66, and this was just on the road leading to Pleiku.
This particular battle was used in the opening scenes od 'We Were Soldiers'.
The French paid dearly for their investment in French Indo-China, even more than we did.
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
the net gains in iraq are the destruction of the ba'ath party, an end to one of the world's worse police states, the deaths of uday and qusay hussein, saddam's eviction from power, and the future establishment of legitimate democratic institutions. additionally, you have the introduction of the kind of transparent and accountable government that is a true rarity in that part of the world.

coupled with the same establishment and reforms in afghanistan, and you have the stirrings of a small ideological tidal wave that can serve to embolden democratic reforms in saudi arabia, egypt, syria, and other places.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: syzygy
the net gains in iraq are the destruction of the ba'ath party, an end to one of the world's worse police states, the deaths of uday and qusay hussein, saddam's eviction from power, and the future establishment of legitimate democratic institutions. additionally, you have the introduction of the kind of transparent and accountable government that is a true rarity in that part of the world.

coupled with the same establishment and reforms in afghanistan, and you have the stirrings of a small ideological tidal wave that can serve to embolden democratic reforms in saudi arabia, egypt, syria, and other places.
Now if we can just get the Arabs to agree with us
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: syzygy
the net gains in iraq are the destruction of the ba'ath party, an end to one of the world's worse police states, the deaths of uday and qusay hussein, saddam's eviction from power, and the future establishment of legitimate democratic institutions. additionally, you have the introduction of the kind of transparent and accountable government that is a true rarity in that part of the world.

coupled with the same establishment and reforms in afghanistan, and you have the stirrings of a small ideological tidal wave that can serve to embolden democratic reforms in saudi arabia, egypt, syria, and other places.

Now if we can just get the Arabs to agree with us

would that be the same arab autocrats mentioned above or al-qaeda, who are mainly arabs too ? because either way, we should not be kowtowing to these elements. the more we disappoint them, the better. wait 'til they see the iraqi representive sitting in their arab league chambers, a man who stands for what they most disdain.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: syzygy
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: syzygy
the net gains in iraq are the destruction of the ba'ath party, an end to one of the world's worse police states, the deaths of uday and qusay hussein, saddam's eviction from power, and the future establishment of legitimate democratic institutions. additionally, you have the introduction of the kind of transparent and accountable government that is a true rarity in that part of the world.

coupled with the same establishment and reforms in afghanistan, and you have the stirrings of a small ideological tidal wave that can serve to embolden democratic reforms in saudi arabia, egypt, syria, and other places.

Now if we can just get the Arabs to agree with us

would that be the same arab autocrats mentioned above or al-qaeda, who are mainly arabs too ? because either way, we should not be kowtowing to these elements. the more we disappoint them, the better. wait 'til they see the iraqi representive sitting in their arab league chambers, a man who stands for what they most disdain.
No it would be your typical Arab Muslim. Anyway, why should American Soldiers die for their freedom when they aren't willing to make the Sacrifices themselves?
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
you seem to be condemning them and lauding them in the same breath. why would you care for their opinion if they cannot at the very least see to their own backyard problems ? damn good question ! i already have a rather low opinion of them, which need not suffer any more.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: syzygy
you seem to be condemning them and lauding them in the same breath. why would you care for their opinion if they cannot at the very least see to their own backyard problems ? damn good question ! i already have a rather low opinion of them, which need not suffer any more.
I'm not "lauding" them at all. The only reason I supported the invasion of Iraq is because I was assured by Dub and hyis boys that Iraq was an immenant threat to the US due to their build up of WMDs and their connections with Al Queda. Man I hate being mislead by our leaders.

 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
Syzygy, you better start setting up an alternative name for Anandtech because if people remember just how wrong you are, it's going to be hard for you to live around here. If you think that "the future establishment of legitimate democratic institutions. additionally, you have the introduction of the kind of transparent and accountable government that is a true rarity in that part of the world" is in the cards, then you must be incredibly naive. I could teach my dog to type before we could impose a transparent, open democratic government in Iraq.

I'll tell you what will happen. We'll hang around there for a while, having soldiers killed every day. We'll put more money in, thus throwing good money after bad. The $60 billion last year and the $87 billion this year are only the beginning. Eventually political pressure in the U.S. will mount and we'll set up another pest hole government, leave, and declare victory. Eventually (and I mean five or ten years) our pest hole government will be overthrown and replaced with a home grown pest hole government.

You were, by implication, promised a short, successful war here with the people throwing flowers at us. How did that come out? And Syzygy, here's a thought problem for extra credit. How well has bashing people worked for Israel? I'm sorry for putting this on such an ad hominim basis, but it's completely ridiculous to think that we can or will install a democratice government.

Heck, maybe I shouldn't have candy coated this.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
The US(particularly the Bush admin) is a victim of its' own Propaganda. The movies reinforce America as Morally Enlightened, Loved the World over, and Atruistic. Americans believe this is true and sometimes it is, but most of it is just feelgood fluff. Most of the World has seen the difference between the Fantasy and the Reality.

Added to that, Americans see themselves as a Beacon, a Light Unto the World. It was, back at its' founding and that Beacon inspired many a People, but it should be noted that the US is no longer unique in that quality upon which it was founded, aka the US no longer is a Monopoly of Liberty, Democracy, and Justice, it is but one of many who espouse the same Ideals. The US myopic view of the World has resulted in distancing itself from Nations who share the same Idealistic Vision and those Nations now must ask themselves if the US has lost or abandoned those Ideals.

The problem is that where once the Monopoly existed, Competition has arisen in the Market of Americas' original Ideals. There is no longer One Voice(US) in which the Consumer(World Nations) can find Liberty, Democracy, and Justice, there can be a Shopping Around of sorts and there is. Because of that, Unilateral action by the US damages its' Competitive Advantage, especially if that Unilateral Action is based on False Pretenses and Murky Details.

Likewise, the US Myopia extends to Human Nature itself. No one likes an outsider. It doesn't matter how Civilized, Good Intentioned, or Successful you are, the uninvited are rarely welcomed with Open Arms. It certainly is possible for a Host to warm up to Uninvited Guests, but if you are Rude, Destructive, and unmindful of Social/Cultural Sensibilities then the Host will do whatever it takes to get you out of their House.

Myopia in itself is not too harmful when its' part of the General Populace, any Nationalist, Patriot, or one Proud of their Country is by definition Myopic and these people are in every Nation in the World, but when a Nations' Leadership is Myopic that's when things get really dicey. The Bush Admin is more Myopic then its' Citizens who traditionally Trust the Leadership and that is the problem with the US at this point.
 
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