The Electric Speed Machine thread.

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
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0
I'm an R/C airplane fan.

R/C airplanes, if you're not familiar with them, generally have the very latest and best in electronic control, composite construction, and battery technology. And the second-best, too, for a tiny fraction of the price.

So, why the zark are'nt we applying this to electric cars?

Motors:

Take a look at the following:
Crystalyte Phoenix Brushless Motor

The Crystalyte Racer 4840 pulls about 1900 watts maximum, but allows accelleration to 20 mph faster than some cars. And the 4840 is not a high-torque motor, either; accelleration is likely limited by the fact that in-wheel motors don't have gearboxes. (Shimano DOES make some awesome in-wheel gearboxes, though; I wonder how they'd work?)

Now, let's consider the following:

1. This is for one electric motor, pulling 250+ lbs. of rider and bike.
2. Multiple electric motors are easy.
3. More motors means higher torque.
4. More torque on these high-RPM motors = much higher speed.

Batteries:

Of course, batteries are a problem. Or, they were, until a certian company used nanotechnology to improve their lithium ion cells. The so-called "emoli" cells are wonders of technology, with an energy density much higher than standard lead-acid cells, high current draw capability, and long life.

Info on cells

In addition, there's another benifit: Charge time. You can charge these FULLY in under 30 minutes. If you drive half of the car's range, just plug in your car; in 15 minutes, you'll be back up to full. It takes more time than that to pump gas!

So, where can we find these? A NASA laboratory, or perhaps some Japanese lab in Kyoto?

Try Home Depot, Lowes, or Target.

The "Emoli" cells are currently found in Milwaukee Power Tools v28 battery packs. They do a fine job of powering power tools, which are, after all, just big motors. A pack would be under 2,000$, and require replacement only once every 2-3 years.

Design:

Obviously, an electric car would be very different from a normal one, especially with the above features.
First, it would need to be light. Think along the lines of one of those two-hundred-and-something MPG concept cars made by VW: Just enough room for two people, or one person and a few bags of groceries.

However, there are advantages to in-wheel motors.

First, you have no transmission, just wires. No transmission means that you have a more reliable design, and front-wheel-drive is easy. Heck, you can make the entire car tilt into turns.
Second, you have no moving parts outside of the wheel itself. These are brushless motors, computer controlled instead of using stators.
Third, weight position: You can put the battery wherever you want.

Although it would be much smaller than we're used to, an efficient electric would likely be very sporty. Because you can make the car lean into curves very easily (no transmission!), an electric could easily out-corner almost anything. And, due to high low-end torque, it would easily "leap off the starting line".


Cost:

And here's the all-important pricetag section.

2x Crystalyte wheels w/ in-wheel motors: 800$.
2x 48v Crystalyte 48v/40A ESCs: 420$.
1x El Humongous lithium battery pack: 2,000$
1x grip controller: 40$
4x inexpensive disc brake sets (for bicycles): 80$
2x Front wheels: 100$
Assorted steel tubing and cable: About 200$

Total cost: 3,700$.

This seems insane, certianly, but consider the cost of a small used car. Although you're limited to about two grocery bags of storage capacity, this is pretty economical.

Also considert that this is a one-off. If thousands were made, the cost would be about 2,500$, making them great vehicles for college students, or as secondary cars for people who own sedands for driving large distances.


Maintenance and Upkeep:

One of the major costs of any vehicle is fuel. However, another, possibly larger cost, is upkeep.

Let's examine the two.

Gas: $2.50 a gallon, for an estimated 30 miles in a small car.
Electric: $0.30 for 3 kilowatts, yielding 30+ miles from an electric car based around two of the above motors. Or free, if you plug it into a city outlet in a city like, say, Green Bay.

But there are further advantages.

Parking: A small electric car could easily be stood up on end. After all, it would only weigh about 150 lbs. In this way, you could fit about ten electric cars in the same space as a SUV, and probbably find a way to avoid paying for parking.

Idling: Gasoline engines suck down fuel when idling. Electric motors will happily sit in traffic for hours, and pull no power at all. A 25mpg car will often get about ten miles per gallon in LA traffic; an electric motor will have a very small drop in efficiency.

And then there's maintenance.

Your average car can cost $1,000-$2000 or more a year, between transmission fluid, brakes, and other assorted problems. Brake pads cost hundreds, as do tires.

On the other hand, an electric car costs very little. Although a new battery every few years means a 600$ average yearly expenditure, you have to consider that an electric bike according to the above specs would be otherwise very cheap.

Bike tires: About 20$ for okay ones, or 80$ for all 4. You'd need new ones every six months, but you can move to mountian bike tires during the winter with little difficulty. Tire replacement costs about 6$ at my local bike shop with purchase. Inner tubes are 10$ installed.

Car tires: 80$+ each, although you need to replace them less often. However, flats are much more costly to replace, and installation must be done at a garage, which charges much more.

Bike oil: My favorite variety of turbine grease is 12$ for a bottle. A bottle will allow for about 2 years worth of oil one of these bikes.

Car Oil: 30$ per oil change. And you need 'em on a regular basis for stop-and-go traffic.

Bike transmission fluid, CVDs, et cetera: Does'nt used them

Car transmission fluid, CVDs, et cetera: I don't like thinking about it.


High Performance

Take four motors, make an AWD variant of the above vehicle with two battery packs.

Cost would be 3,000$ higher, but performance would be insane. (Plus, AWD!)
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
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Don't forget about auxillary power draw such as AC - in hot areas, that would drain your battery dry during long-term idle conditions that you claim would require no power.

Also, are you talking about a motorcycle or a car?? I'm confused...
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
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I too fly electric RC ("pfm" over at rcgrous.com - they wouldn't let me use "pm" <sigh> ) .

And I have been looking into this in great deal as well. I have a Crystalyte x5304 on my bicycle - I believe Dave at Electric Rider calls the 5304 the "Cruiser", but I can't keep track of his nomenclature. I have a 36-72V 20A controller, and I have also been wondering why someone like Castle Creation's HV series sells for less and is vastly smaller and more programmable than anything that I've seen on the EV front. I use a custom-made lithium ion battery pack - 96 16850's tied together as a 12s8p pack - which is ~44V nominal and ~17Ah. It weighs a little under 4.5 kilos (<10lbs.) I have a charging system which I came up with myself which has a BMS balancer with overcurrent and overvoltage protection and charges the pack from empty in about 2 hours.

I have the system mounted on a Columbia Trailhead mountain bike. I modified the gear a bit to enable pedal-assist (the bicycle as stock is geared too low to allow useful pedalling at >26mph.

The specs (on flat ground, no wind):
Full throttle w/o pedalling: 45kph (~28mph)
Full throttle w/ pedalling: ~51kph (~32mph)
0 to 45kph acceleration w/o pedalling: ~ 13seconds
Range w/o pedalling: ~32km (~20 miles)
Range w/ pedalling: ~50km (~31 miles)
Distance ridden to date: ~425km (~265 miles)

For measurements, I use a Garmin Foretrex 101 mounted on my handlebars and I have a Hyperion E-meter that I use to measure voltage and current. To estimate range, I extrapolate distances based on battery capacity remaining after various trips.

You bring up some interesting points, Cheesehead, but you have confused me as well with your discussion of e-cars and e-bicycles. I definitely would not consider putting a Crystalyte x4 or x5 series motor into a car... there wouldn't be anywhere near enough torque to really get the acceleration up, and the top-speed is about 70kph (~45mph) which is nowhere near fast enough. They are basically 1kW(peak) motors... even with 4, you are looking at 4kW... not enough... 1 horsepower is 745W... so 4kw is about 5HP. Although I have heard people say that Crystalyte has deliberately underestimaged the motor specs on then them... but based on the specifications at Crystalyte's website, they are

IMO, You want something like a 125kW (peak) motor for a Honda Civic sized all-electric car... maybe more closer to 200kW(peak) for something fun to drive. And you'd want something that has gears to keep the motor operating in it's current/efficiency curve - so I wouldn't recommend ditching the transmission. I use a hub motor on my bike, but it would be more efficient if I had geared it - more complex on a bike, but more efficient.

I think the e-moli's and A123's will move into EV. I personally thought that getting into high-end power tools is a really great place to start. Margins are good, it's a tough environment which gives them exposure to get the kinks out, and volumes (compared to, say, the Prius) are relatively low. I give it less than 5 years before we start seeing this type of technology moving into hybrid EV's.

I post as "patrick_mahoney" at Visforvoltage.com. They have some good information over there.
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
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I too think that there is alot of potential in electric cars but as i understand it, it is erroneous to think that recharging the battery would be a simple as plugging it in and charging it for 30 minutes, it would take more time because home outlet circutry is simply not designed to handle enough current to move that much energy from the wall to the car. Perhaps it would be possible in that time frame with a specially installed charging circuit, like the tesla motors car uses but i don't think it could work that fast with just a conventional outlet.
 

BitByBit

Senior member
Jan 2, 2005
474
2
81
Over the next couple of decades, IC engines will begin being phased out in favour of electric motors powered by Fuel Cells. Batteries are simply too bulky to be used in cars, not to mention the time they take to recharge, and the fact that they cannot be charged and discharged indefinitely. I believe research is underway that will allow fuel cells to run on petrol and air, rather than the kind used today which require pure H and O.

Edit:
Article (Unfortunately requires subscription)
 

Kreon

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2006
1,329
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0
why hasn't stuff like this been implemented before
Very simple, teh gas companies buy the patents from teh designers, and then keep them so they can't be built.

My dad had a buddy in the Coast Guard who built an electric engine out of a jet engine starter, then put them onto mail trucks (like USPS trucks). They worked great. Exxon (I think) offered $1 million for it, and he sold it, bought a house, and retired form teh Coat Guard.

Stupid gas companies
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: BitByBit
Over the next couple of decades, IC engines will begin being phased out in favour of electric motors powered by Fuel Cells. Batteries are simply too bulky to be used in cars, not to mention the time they take to recharge, and the fact that they cannot be charged and discharged indefinitely. I believe research is underway that will allow fuel cells to run on petrol and air, rather than the kind used today which require pure H and O.

Edit:
Article (Unfortunately requires subscription)

Both methane fuel cells and hydrogen fuel cells are fairly common. Hydrogen fuel cells still have a much higher efficiency. Either type of cell can run on atmospheric oxygen (in other words, they don't require pure O2). But right now they're fairly expensive, due mostly to the catalyst and the PEM.

Originally posted by: Kreon
why hasn't stuff like this been implemented before
Very simple, teh gas companies buy the patents from teh designers, and then keep them so they can't be built.

My dad had a buddy in the Coast Guard who built an electric engine out of a jet engine starter, then put them onto mail trucks (like USPS trucks). They worked great. Exxon (I think) offered $1 million for it, and he sold it, bought a house, and retired form teh Coat Guard.

Stupid gas companies

"Stupid"? Do you think that energy companies (notice they don't call themselves oil companies) just throw those patents away? No, they're going to trot them out just as soon as oil gets too hard to find or extract in quantity. They're in it for the long haul.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I have always thought the battery charge time limitation seems kind of silly. It seems that I should be able to pull into the equivalent of a 'gas station' and simply give them my old, dead battery and get a new one. Of course, this model might not work if the batteries are dissimilar between vehicles, but this should not present a real problem. The only issue would be whether such stations could really turn a profit.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I have always thought the battery charge time limitation seems kind of silly. It seems that I should be able to pull into the equivalent of a 'gas station' and simply give them my old, dead battery and get a new one. Of course, this model might not work if the batteries are dissimilar between vehicles, but this should not present a real problem. The only issue would be whether such stations could really turn a profit.

That was the original plan that Edison and Ford put together for the electric car back around the beginning of the 20th century. You'd pull into a "gas" station, open the hood and they'd come in with a crane, pick up the dead batteries, and drop in freshly charged ones. You could get a battery change faster and more safely than it would take to fill up a tank with gas using pumps at the time (they didn't have auto-shut off valves back then).
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: pm
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I have always thought the battery charge time limitation seems kind of silly. It seems that I should be able to pull into the equivalent of a 'gas station' and simply give them my old, dead battery and get a new one. Of course, this model might not work if the batteries are dissimilar between vehicles, but this should not present a real problem. The only issue would be whether such stations could really turn a profit.

That was the original plan that Edison and Ford put together for the electric car back around the beginning of the 20th century. You'd pull into a "gas" station, open the hood and they'd come in with a crane, pick up the dead batteries, and drop in freshly charged ones. You could get a battery change faster and more safely than it would take to fill up a tank with gas using pumps at the time (they didn't have auto-shut off valves back then).


The latest-generation cells charge in twenty minutes. Why bother swapping 'em out?

I was suggesting the four-motor design for use in what is essentially a four-wheeled bicycle, one motor per wheel. That way, you get all-time 4-wheel-drive with no lack of efficiency, and the high ground clearance of bike wheels means that rain will be no problem. (Plus, mountian bike tires are very cheap. 50$ will get you a set of four that will let you plow through ice and snow at a pace that a Land Rover will envy.)
 

MadAd

Senior member
Oct 1, 2000
428
1
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thats a long time really. I can draw a tank in about 3-4 minutes and still I get bored looking around while it pours, I just can't see people waiting 20 minutes for a full charge, they wouldnt have it, the kids would be screaming, youd have to build them cafes and toilets and give them video games.......

And then theres the economics of so many pumps per square ft and maximum customer flow rate at busy times. Where I fill there may be queues at rush hour at my 3 or 4 minutes a tank, we'd need huge forecourts with parking to get the same customer throughput, or up to 4x the queue.

Certainly there could be opportunities for shops or car parking companies to offer park-n-charge sort of deals, especially as theres not much needed to installing power transfer stations in parking bays, but I digress, people in general will not accept what would be seen a backwards step in todays time pressured lives unless they gain something from it.

Swapping them out is a good option if there was some unity in standards from the start (haha, yeah not likely) but even then its a job more physical than poking a nozzle in a hole..men and women alike would whinge about it so up goes manpower costs servicing all these people that want a battery change, or again they would just stick with a gas powered for convenience.

As for the wheels, for a car that people feel safeish in it'll have to be a taller fibre glass based design with smaller wheels, bit like the horrible SMART cars we have here...People need to feel safe and without some reasonable well crafted cocoon, steering gear and mighty brakes of steel, then its only going to be a 4 wheel bike.

Also have you costed the transfer sockets into the equation - an external charging port + cabling and a consumer idiot proofed battery terminal connection for changes. They'd need to be quite solid conductors too.

I think in reality to cross the line from a novel bike (appealing to a small segment) to a car that people will buy involves a weight cost that has to be factored into the power budget or it simply wont sell.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: MadAd
thats a long time really. I can draw a tank in about 3-4 minutes and still I get bored looking around while it pours, I just can't see people waiting 20 minutes for a full charge, they wouldnt have it, the kids would be screaming, youd have to build them cafes and toilets and give them video games.......

And then theres the economics of so many pumps per square ft and maximum customer flow rate at busy times. Where I fill there may be queues at rush hour at my 3 or 4 minutes a tank, we'd need huge forecourts with parking to get the same customer throughput, or up to 4x the queue.

Certainly there could be opportunities for shops or car parking companies to offer park-n-charge sort of deals, especially as theres not much needed to installing power transfer stations in parking bays, but I digress, people in general will not accept what would be seen a backwards step in todays time pressured lives unless they gain something from it.

Swapping them out is a good option if there was some unity in standards from the start (haha, yeah not likely) but even then its a job more physical than poking a nozzle in a hole..men and women alike would whinge about it so up goes manpower costs servicing all these people that want a battery change, or again they would just stick with a gas powered for convenience.

As for the wheels, for a car that people feel safeish in it'll have to be a taller fibre glass based design with smaller wheels, bit like the horrible SMART cars we have here...People need to feel safe and without some reasonable well crafted cocoon, steering gear and mighty brakes of steel, then its only going to be a 4 wheel bike.

Also have you costed the transfer sockets into the equation - an external charging port + cabling and a consumer idiot proofed battery terminal connection for changes. They'd need to be quite solid conductors too.

I think in reality to cross the line from a novel bike (appealing to a small segment) to a car that people will buy involves a weight cost that has to be factored into the power budget or it simply wont sell.

North of where I live, there is a town called Green Bay.

There are electrical outlets at every parking meter, and most parking lots.

They're for plugging in car heaters - otherwise, the engine freezes.

Of course, you can use 'em to charge an electric car, and a few people do.

 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
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Originally posted by: pm
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I have always thought the battery charge time limitation seems kind of silly. It seems that I should be able to pull into the equivalent of a 'gas station' and simply give them my old, dead battery and get a new one. Of course, this model might not work if the batteries are dissimilar between vehicles, but this should not present a real problem. The only issue would be whether such stations could really turn a profit.

That was the original plan that Edison and Ford put together for the electric car back around the beginning of the 20th century. You'd pull into a "gas" station, open the hood and they'd come in with a crane, pick up the dead batteries, and drop in freshly charged ones. You could get a battery change faster and more safely than it would take to fill up a tank with gas using pumps at the time (they didn't have auto-shut off valves back then).


Yea... but what if you swap out your new battery and get a more worn out one? And who foots the bill to replace/refurbish the unusable batteries? This would also probably require more standardization than is practical. People buying sports cars would want small batteries that use the very newest technologies for the best power to wieght ratios, costs be damned while people driving pickups would want larger batteries (or more of the smaller ones) with more power but might not be as concerned about power-wieght ratios as they are with cost. On paper this would work great, kinda like socialism and communism, but in our current capitalist society no one would ever go for this. I know people who don't like returning thier old propane tanks, even for the discount.
 

Xyo II

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 2005
2,177
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Originally posted by: SuperFungus
Yea... but what if you swap out your new battery and get a more worn out one? And who foots the bill to replace/refurbish the unusable batteries? This would also probably require more standardization than is practical. People buying sports cars would want small batteries that use the very newest technologies for the best power to wieght ratios, costs be damned while people driving pickups would want larger batteries (or more of the smaller ones) with more power but might not be as concerned about power-wieght ratios as they are with cost. On paper this would work great, kinda like socialism and communism, but in our current capitalist society no one would ever go for this. I know people who don't like returning thier old propane tanks, even for the discount.

There's already more than one type of battery for electric cars, so obviously a gas station, or "battery station" would have multiple types of batteries. The battery stations would give reassurance to its customers that it maintains its batteries and won't give out ones that don't perform as well- and monitors for the customer to be sure of it.
 

liquid51

Senior member
Oct 14, 2005
284
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The auto/oil industry is the reason this isn't being applied to electric cars. It's much too efficient. This was also WAY too efficient...
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
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Originally posted by: liquid51
The auto/oil industry is the reason this isn't being applied to electric cars. It's much too efficient. This was also WAY too efficient...

Yeah, it's a conspiracy, for sure.

You ARE right, though - gas sure is efficient.

Running a vehicle on water is a hoax, though I'm sure you were aware of that - just pointing that out for the less-informed.
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
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My point was that this type of infastructure would be overly complex. The start up costs for a station that needs to buy several of every battery type would be enormous. Also, on any sort of roadtrip you'd be left praying that the station you run out of juice near has your battery type. This type of infastructure seems analogous to expecting every service station to have your cars specific trasmission on hand when you need it replaced. I like electric vehicles alot but i think charge times are a real concern, and stations with every battery under the sun are not the solution, they're too impractical. The gauges you linked don't really offer assurance of a full charge either, the only measure of chargedness is an amp hour as i understand it and the gauge they propose on that site measures amp-hours by measuring both usage and charging of the battery, since the customer wasn't there for the charging half of the equation he has to take the stations word that the battery is charged.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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You raise some good points. But this statement could be changed to:
...since the customer wasn't there for the charging half of the equation he has to take the stations word that the battery is charged.
...since the customer can't know what or how much is going into the tank, he has to take the station's word that the amount the tank was filled and the octane of the fuel is what the gauge says.
which we do... I haven't ever measured the octane of the fuel that I use... I've never attempted to calibrate a gas pump. If they "watered" down my fuel with... for example, benzene, I wouldn't have the faintest idea. If the gauge says that 12 gallons went in for a fill up, how do I know that it wasn't 10.5 gallons of sub-par gasoline? My point is that there is already a fair amount of "trust" in our gasoline-based system. Your point that there would have to be trust to make an electric system work is a good one, but not one that we don't already face to a similar extent.

As far as having numerous types of batteries and it being like having numerous transmissions on hand, the industry has standardized on just a few types of fuel and on specific octanes, as well as types of additives (like ethanol). All engines are standardized to a specific fuel, why not have all electric cars standardize on a specific battery?


For what it's worth, I rode my electric speed machine during lunch to run some errands. 35mph down the road, rock-star parking when I get to the store (hunt for a parking spot, not I). It was a little chilly, but with a hat on, and my iPod for entertainment, it was a vastly more enjoyable ride than anyone stuck in traffic and combing the parking lot for a spot experienced. I charged back in exactly 199.2W (4.1Ah at 48V) as well. So, that's approximately $0.013 cents for the 6 mile roundtrip ride (at our local rate of ~$0.065/kWh).
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
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Originally posted by: pm
You raise some good points. But this statement could be changed to:
...since the customer wasn't there for the charging half of the equation he has to take the stations word that the battery is charged.
...since the customer can't know what or how much is going into the tank, he has to take the station's word that the amount the tank was filled and the octane of the fuel is what the gauge says.
which we do... I haven't ever measured the octane of the fuel that I use... I've never attempted to calibrate a gas pump. If they "watered" down my fuel with... for example, benzene, I wouldn't have the faintest idea. If the gauge says that 12 gallons went in for a fill up, how do I know that it wasn't 10.5 gallons of sub-par gasoline? My point is that there is already a fair amount of "trust" in our gasoline-based system. Your point that there would have to be trust to make an electric system work is a good one, but not one that we don't already face to a similar extent.

As far as having numerous types of batteries and it being like having numerous transmissions on hand, the industry has standardized on just a few types of fuel and on specific octanes, as well as types of additives (like ethanol). All engines are standardized to a specific fuel, why not have all electric cars standardize on a specific battery?


For what it's worth, I rode my electric speed machine during lunch to run some errands. 35mph down the road, rock-star parking when I get to the store (hunt for a parking spot, not I). It was a little chilly, but with a hat on, and my iPod for entertainment, it was a vastly more enjoyable ride than anyone stuck in traffic and combing the parking lot for a spot experienced. I charged back in exactly 199.2W (4.1Ah at 48V) as well. So, that's approximately $0.013 cents for the 6 mile roundtrip ride (at our local rate of ~$0.065/kWh).

I agree, trusting the gasoline station is moot point, we all do it and there is no reason for that to change with electric stations. However, i see standardizing batterys as a bigger problem then you admit here, for reasons i've given previously. I see standardizing to electricity as being analogus to standardizng to gasoline; not standardizing to a certain battery size and design as analogous to standardizing to gasoline.
 

liquid51

Senior member
Oct 14, 2005
284
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Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Originally posted by: liquid51
The auto/oil industry is the reason this isn't being applied to electric cars. It's much too efficient. This was also WAY too efficient...

Yeah, it's a conspiracy, for sure.

You ARE right, though - gas sure is efficient.

Running a vehicle on water is a hoax, though I'm sure you were aware of that - just pointing that out for the less-informed.


Well, not necessarily. The only thing separating fact from fiction is the amount of energry required to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. To say that it impossible to split the water without high amounts of energy, having not studied and experimented with the concept, is a touch short sighted. I'm sure there were many hoaxes floating around about the loon that said he could harness the energy of a lightning bolt and store it in a little metal can, but we have electricity free flowing through the walls of our homes today.

The other thing that leads me to believe this may be feasible is the fact that hydrogen boosters are readily available right now (and have been for a while). And btw, I know that they can't produce enough to run the car on hydrogen alone. Anyway, perpetual motion is impossible, but people are constantly searching for it. And if one of the nut jobs actually figures it out, our whole way of thinking will change. It's happened before.

I do agree that it could easily be a hoax, but I'll decide for myself once I've experimented a bit.
 

Alexstarfire

Senior member
Jul 25, 2004
385
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I'm not sure if I could even start on how many holes are in these theories.

The way you people talk about these electric cars would be like taking a HUGE step backwards. Driving anything that doesn't have the ability to go over 80MPH is just stupid. It's not so much that we need to drive that fast, but that means that there is at least some extra acceleration should we need it, to avoid accidents and what not.

The battery you suggested is terrible. A 2-3 year life span for a $2000 battery, that's insanely expensive. The battery I have in my Prius is said to last 10 years and costs like $5000-$7000 and I still think that's crap. Let's just use some simple math to show you how bad your battery would be. I believe they say that the average person drives 15,000 miles a year so I'll just use that for comparison.

Average:

15,000 miles / 20 mpg (SUV milage) x $2.50 per gallon gas = $1875 per year

15,000 miles / 35 mpg (sedan milage) x $2.50 per gallon gas = $1071 per year

15,000 miles / 35 mpc (terrible BTW) x 3 Kw (full charge for batteries) x $.1 per Kw (depending) = $129 per year

What it would cost me:

20,000 miles (my milage) / 55 mpg (my milage) * $2.15 per gallon gas (price where I am) = $782

20,000 miles / 35 mpc x 3 Kw * $.1 per Kw = $171

So, for me that's $2346 every 3 years for my Prius, maintinance costs not included, and $2513 for the electric car you propose. That puts my Prius in the lead for money, until I need to get a new battery of course. Don't get me wrong, using electric would be cool, but I don't think it's gonna be possible with what we have now. I assumed that you get near nominal performance out of what was suggested. For me that 2-3 years on your battery maybe less than 2 since I drive more than 20,000 miles a year. That would put your electric car way behind. Also, the battery on the Prius is said to last 10 years since they don't let it go down to zero charge so it could actually be longer than 10 years till you need to replace it. I believe they said that after said 10 years that it can only hold 80% of it's original charge and that it wouldn't necessarily affect performance. I can't confirm and of that though.

Not only that, your electric car can't go anywhere near the speeds my Priu can, well over 100 MPH. I get about 50 mpg on the highway doing 60-65 mph. My Prius can go 500+ miles before I have to fill up. For the electric car that would be charging up like 15 times. And even giving it 10 minutes to charge (likely double that or more) that's 2.5 hours down the drain. With the charge only going even 40 miles that's not even a lot of peoples commute to work every weekday.

I will say that your idea would cost a lot less than my used Prius, but it also doesn't sound like you are making a car as big as a Prius either. All electric means no oil changes and such, but if you drive your car correctly that's not that much more per year, like $200.

Also, it seems like you are making an electric scooter or electric buggy. If you made a gas powered buggy you could get at least 60 mpg, probably more but IDK for sure, and it could go about twice as fast as your electric one. It you had a gas powered scooter, like a goped, they get over 100 MPG and go as far as the electric one your propose. Even tkaing the gas powered buggy it would cost less per year than my Prius, cost about as much as the electric one you propose, go much faster, and you'd never have an expensive battery to replace.

While all electric sounds great in theory until they can get one that gets about the same specs, in terms of performance and fuel costs, then they just aren't feasible in real life.



Ok, that took a long time to write so I hope I put everything in there correctly.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: jagec
"Stupid"? Do you think that energy companies (notice they don't call themselves oil companies) just throw those patents away? No, they're going to trot them out just as soon as oil gets too hard to find or extract in quantity. They're in it for the long haul.

And why else would some oil companies are also developing and selling solar panels? Shell Solar Panels, anyone? They know that oil is finite, and that some day they're going to need another source of revenue.
 

Alexstarfire

Senior member
Jul 25, 2004
385
1
76
True, but for the time being solar panels are just a PR stunt. It looks good for the oil companies because it seems like they care about the environment. What you said is true, but that won't be for a long, long, long time.
 

JPSJPS

Senior member
Apr 17, 2001
216
0
0
Originally posted by: Alexstarfire
While all electric sounds great in theory until they can get one that gets about the same specs, in terms of performance and fuel costs, then they just aren't feasible in real life.
You only made one minor mistake: NO they don't sound good "in theory" but instead only sound good in dreams of someone who knows nothing about physics.

The rest of what you said is exactly why we do not drive electric cars and also "Why They Killed The Electric Car"
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: Alexstarfire
True, but for the time being solar panels are just a PR stunt. It looks good for the oil companies because it seems like they care about the environment. What you said is true, but that won't be for a long, long, long time.

Shell seems fairly serious about it. They bought Siemens Solar a few years ago. While solar may be a marginal source of revenue for them, buying a major solar cell company like Siemens is hardly a small gesture.
 
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