The Electric Speed Machine thread.

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Alexstarfire

Senior member
Jul 25, 2004
385
1
76
But, that's really what I meant. People don't think about what it costs and takes to make an electric car, or to maintain an electric car.

I'm just talking about what it looks like on paper. The numbers look great until you see what actually goes into making an electric car.
 

JPSJPS

Senior member
Apr 17, 2001
216
0
0
Originally posted by: Alexstarfire
But, that's really what I meant. People don't think about what it costs and takes to make an electric car, or to maintain an electric car.

I'm just talking about what it looks like on paper. The numbers look great until you see what actually goes into making an electric car.
YA I knew that is what you meant and I was NOT criticizing you! I was just pointing out that "theory" is the wrong word to use in a "HIGHLY TECHNICAL" discussion.
No big deal though )
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86
I do agree with the electric car development, and here's just an idea that I think can be applied to current vehicles. How about producing a type of paint that would act as solar panels as well? That way, you can have almost constant recharge without using costly energy, of course the design will not be 100% dependent on the solar power.

Check out Tesla Motor and their debut of sexy electric super car. It's coming to reality.

Edit: Hmmm.. I'm sure this have been thought off already, but... With a car such as the Tesla car, would the range of that vehicle be extended if they design four generators that would graft onto each of the shaft, in turn would recharge the battery when the car is moving. Would the four generators produce usable energy? Any electrical engineers?
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
0
0
4 generators on each of the wheels you mean? You must be joking. First of all a motor and a generator are the same electricly so the wheels ALREADY have generators (or a single generator) mechanically attached to the wheels; and thats how regenerative braking works: as you brake, the wheels spin the motors and you re-coup some energy. Secondly attaching a second set of generators would most certainly NOT work because turning a generator with an electric motor does not spontaneously produce energy, sorry. I'm floored by how many people think this will work. Oh and btw a windmill on top of the car wouldn't work either; just in case you where getting ready to ask.
 

Alexstarfire

Senior member
Jul 25, 2004
385
1
76
Yea, but the only reason that wouldn't work it cause of the drag it would produce, lol.

Uhh, I'm not sure about paint being used like a solar panel since, from what I understand, a solar panel is more than just a surface and has lots of components at work. I'm sure you could model solar panels into the shape of a car, but I don't think that making it into a paint is going to ever happen. Maybe thin moldable plastic or stickers, but not paint me thinks.

Actually, one of the things I was thinking about to improve fuel economy was to put giant tubes around each side of the highways, so the highways are completely encased, and then just put fans at either end. Pretty much my idea is just to get the wind to always work with you instead of against you. I wouldn't think it would take too much effort to get the wind to go 70 MPH through a tube. The problem I was running into with my idea is the on and off ramps. You'd have to make it so that air never escaped when cars entered or left the highway. I don't know what we could use to do that. It'd have to be strong enough to withstand 50-70MPG winds, yet easy enough for a car to pass through. If we did that you could improve the fuel economy of every car by quite a bit.

Anyways, that's just a wild and crazy idea that'll probably never work. I don't see how it could.
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
0
0
Uhhh, ok so the CARS are more energy efficeint but now you have to power and maintain a giant wind tunnel and fan which runs all the time. Yea, right.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: Alexstarfire

The battery you suggested is terrible. A 2-3 year life span for a $2000 battery, that's insanely expensive. The battery I have in my Prius is said to last 10 years and costs like $5000-$7000 and I still think that's crap. Let's just use some simple math to show you how bad your battery would be. I believe they say that the average person drives 15,000 miles a year so I'll just use that for comparison.

Ok, that took a long time to write so I hope I put everything in there correctly.


All of your mathematics are correct. My design would not be using the high-caliber battery management technology in the Prius; it would just have all the batteries wired in a big series/parallel configuration.

My idea was to show that you could go fast on an electric vehicle - not how it would be practical. Battery technology has not come terribly far in the last five years - I've seen a maximum of maybe a 25% increase in power density, if even that - but with a bit more work (or a lot of the nastily expensive Saphion non-exploding lithium cells), an electric car or motorbike is not just a possibility - it can be made.

Were you able to use Prius-grade battery management, battery life expectancy would be very similar to that of a Prius - at least six years or so, depending on conditions and how much you drive it.

Also, the price would be much, much lower. Thanks to dropping prices, a battery pack could be made for perhaps $800 for a dual-motored vehicle - possibly less - using the high-grade lithium cells.

Finally, what I've designed is intended to act in place of a very small car - it's essentially a faster, lighter, and cheaper version of those funny little cars at airports.

The top-end version of the motors are capable of 25-30mph. I'm honestly not sure how fast such a vehicle would go - my estimate is that it would weigh about 30% more than the electric bicycle for which they were intended. However, instead of one, there would be four - hence, four times the torque and four times the overall horsepower. Imagine a go-kart with four of these - you could hit 50mph with ease, and corner in a manner that would make 2wd gas kart owners green with envy! (And high-end karts are serious buisness - people spend thousands on them.

EDIT:

The price of a 2-wheeled "mini-truck" for moving about town could be dropped a great deal.

1. Motors, 2x $400 - these are made in a very small quantity. Sell one hundred times as much, and they could be made for $150 - maybe less.

Of course, we can just use the RoadRunner 4820 motor. Although performance is somewhat anemic, one must consider the fact that they're:
A. $225 each
B. Two of them would be used.
C. The total weight they would be pushing is not that much greater than the bicycle for which they would be intended.



2. Speed controllers. If this is a 3-phase brushless motor - and I think it is - a pair of homemade 40A at 36v ESCs can be made for under $50. See here:

http://www.speedy-bl.com/spdy1684-e.htm
http://www.speedy-bl.com/schema-e.htm
All that's needed is to upgrade the FETs to larger, higher-voltage models. (They're IRF3205 HEXFETs, which essentially means that you can replace them with with bigger HEXFETs that cost $2 each, and use a cheap heatsink (old socket370 heatsinks work well) to cool them.)

If you're wondering, reversing the motor is the simple matter of switching one lead (there's three) with another, which is really easy - the whole thing's controlled by a PIC microcontroller.

Note that each ESC would be capable of a power output much larger than actually required.

3. The battery.
Lithium cells are all very nice, but NiMh Tenergy 10,000mah D-cells (1.2v) are $4.75 each.

http://store.shorelinemarket.com/1dni10reba.html

A 48v 30Ah pack of 120 cells (3 cells in parallel x 40 cells in series) would cost about $550, and weigh about 35 lbs. It uses the exact same battery chemistry - actually, almost exactly the same cells - as are found in the Prius. I'd expect at least 3 years off of this pack with basic battery management technology. (By "basic" I mean something bodged together with a PICmicro and some FETs.)

This pack should give at least 30 miles on a charge, likely more - I can't see the efficiency chart of the 4820 motor, but they advertise 20 miles on a charge with a single motor on 10Ah - each motor would have 15Ah (50% more) and would be pushing a much lighter load than the tested 36v motor (there's two of 'em). I would say maybe 40-45 miles if driven at about 25mph (local traffic) over a flat road.

So, here's the "new price breakdown":

$450 - front wheels/motors.
$50 - diy ESC
$550 - D-cell NiMH pack
$100 - other bits

Total: $1150.

Not too shabby, if you ask me. Remember, this would be for a 4-wheeled bicycle style vehicle capable of carrying a passenger or a good-sized amount of stuff. In other words, it's a noise-less, smog-less, gas-less moped that can carry things.

Finally, as a side benifit, remember this:
1. No power is used when the car is stopped in traffic or at a light.
2. You can turn off the engine when moving downhill - it's largely friction-less.
3. It's front wheel drive with two seperate motors - essentially, a limited-slip differential on steroids.
4. Ground clearance that SUVs envy - roughly 12".
5. Add knobbly mountain-bike style tires (these are bike wheels, after all) and you can tackle rain better than anything else on the road.
6. While tires will not last as long as car tires, they also cost a tiny fraction as much - $60 for a set of four versus $600 for a set of four. Maintaining a vehicle like this only requires replacing the wheels and tires, which you can do yourself in about twenty minutes. Everything else just needs a bit of grease once in a while.
 

Alexstarfire

Senior member
Jul 25, 2004
385
1
76
True, but think about it. Getting winds to 70MPH isn't THAT hard. I mean they have wind tunnels that go well beyond 100MPH. My point was that if you essentially had a closed tube, well only 1 open end and the other end has the fan, then it wouldn't require that much power. I mean the wind will just travel 70MPH down the tube no matter how long the tube is.
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
0
0
It may be very possible (if inordinately difficult to operate and maintain) to make the windtunnel you describe, but would that save energy overall? I would say no. If you spend the energy you use powering the fan to run cars instead you'd move more people farther in my estimation. It doesn't seem like anything remotely close to a solution to me.
 
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