The F-35 is a piece of garbage!

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
We’ve heard of significant shortcomings before with the fighter jet that’s supposed to be America’s future, but this is just as bad as it gets. The F-35 performed so dismally in a dogfight, that the test pilot remarked that the it had pretty much no place fighting other aircraft within visual range.
And it’s even worse than a mere maneuverability issue. At one point, the pilot’s helmet was so big he couldn’t even turn his head inside the cockpit.


http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-cant-beat-the-plane-its-replacing-in-a-dogfigh-1714712248


What a damn shame.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
Yup, but it looks cool, which is why it was chosen over the technically superior competitor.

On the flip side, the F-22 is as easy to fly as a Cessna. They kind of went downhill from there
 

jana519

Senior member
Jul 12, 2014
771
100
106
Visual aerial dogfights had their heyday in World War II. Military aircraft is moving towards sophisticated and sensitive electronics and computer intelligence. The plane that "sees" the other one first wins. That's the point of the F-35.
 
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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
Visual aerial dogfights had their heyday in World War II. Military aircraft is moving towards sophisticated and sensitive electronics and computer intelligence. The plane that "sees" the other one first wins. That's the point of the F-35.

Dog fighting is still very much part of a fighter pilots training. The F35 does not negate that reality.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
An aerial dog fight with China's jets is like the top issue plaguing America today. (hope they won't stop making our iphones in the ww3 situation though, kinda need em) so, eh. Scrape a few more billion from infrastructure and social programs to fix it. But don't you dare raise my taxes.
 
Reactions: KingstonU

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
Visual aerial dogfights had their heyday in World War II. Military aircraft is moving towards sophisticated and sensitive electronics and computer intelligence. The plane that "sees" the other one first wins. That's the point of the F-35.

Probably true in most battles. However, in a giant Cold War Conventional Soviet invasion of Europe, that likely would no longer apply. The situation would be desperate enough that merely firing off your missiles and returning to Base would not be sufficient. Rather, you'd first fire your Missiles, then engage what's left with your Guns.

That scenario is far less likely to occur these days, but if your Weaponry is not capable of that, that leaves you in a very weakened position if that type of war breaks out.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
My question is, can they remove the human pilot and make this thing succeed? If not, I'm more than pissed off as a tax payer.
 
Reactions: shortylickens

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
But it can take off vertically (probably only with virtually no payload) and hover?
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,175
5,641
146
One thing I get a kick out of is how Iran aped the F-35 design when they tried to claim they had an ultra-modern fighter.

Dog fighting is still very much part of a fighter pilots training. The F35 does not negate that reality.

And that's the whole point of the F-22. Remember when people were going "why are we building an incredibly expensive air superiority fighter, we don't fucking dogfight any more?"

Plus I'm going to take plenty of the F-35 articles with a grain of salt. Especially ones with stuff like this:

At one point, the pilot’s helmet was so big he couldn’t even turn his head inside the cockpit.

Did the helmet grow? We're seriously supposed to believe that the pilot couldn't even turn his head? Only thing I can guess is that he was trying to completely turn it, which aren't these helmets supposed to have a bunch of tech so that they shouldn't even be doing that?

I'm not saying the F-35 doesn't have serious flaws/issues (it certainly does), but there's been a bunch of ignorance and fervor over it so that it's seeing who can make up the most amount of claims about how much it sucks.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86
LOL, yeah believe that if you're the opposing air force. Basically, the F-ANYTHING the US put up in the sky can fly up, fire its missiles, land, the pilots then go get some beers, before the other airplanes know what hit them.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,805
10,342
136
good thing dogfights are basically a thing of the past. if the F35 lost a missile engagement, then i'd be extremely concerned.
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,801
136
We just need to train the B-52 pilots in dogfighting. I'd go to an airshow to see that.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
Plus I'm going to take plenty of the F-35 articles with a grain of salt. Especially ones with stuff like this:



Did the helmet grow? We're seriously supposed to believe that the pilot couldn't even turn his head? Only thing I can guess is that he was trying to completely turn it, which aren't these helmets supposed to have a bunch of tech so that they shouldn't even be doing that?

I'm not saying the F-35 doesn't have serious flaws/issues (it certainly does), but there's been a bunch of ignorance and fervor over it so that it's seeing who can make up the most amount of claims about how much it sucks.


The new helmet is like $180,000 and uses cameras from all over the aircraft. It could very well be a huge monster, but why wasn't he using the cameras? Are there cameras behind? Being able to see around you is crucial. I'm not a fighter pilot, but playing many air combat games you get a taste of that idea called situational awareness.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
The F-35 was designed to be a jet that does everything. The F-16 was designed as light, small, and highly maneuverable fighter. Even the F-15C has a hard time against the F-16C in a knife fight. The F-35 is kind of like the F-4 Phantom, which did everything, which wasn't very good as a closed in dog fighter, which also served for the Air Force and the Navy. If you really want a good dog fighter, the old F-5 was pretty good and cheap, but mostly sold to our allies, and served as adversaries in the training program of future fighter jocks. The F-5 also served as the Mig-28 in the beloved Top Gun movie.
 
Reactions: shortylickens

Humpy

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2011
4,463
596
126
What we need is a missile that fires missiles at other missiles.

Then we won't need any planes at all.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
basically its a perfect storm of bad ideas:

concurrency is a bill of goods
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-pentagons-concurrency-myth-is-now-available-in-supe-1689810660

the marines and lockheed kinda screwed over the air force and navy
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd...th-the-worlds-worst-new-warplane-5c95d45f86a5

close range gunfights are the last ditch final resort, ability to point the nose is less important with offbore tracking missiles.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-its-sad-that-the-f-22-just-fired-its-first-guided-a-1704889474

even thrust vectoring turns out to be less than useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92HQ1mkDnA
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
even thrust vectoring turns out to be less than useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92HQ1mkDnA

I love how people see TVC as some kind of magical enhancement when people seem to completely disregard the loss of energy that occurs when it's used in any practical form. You don't want to lose energy if you're in a multiple plane dogfight.

So I'm a proponent of the fact that the F-35 is a sort of franken-plane made to do too much, and other parameters suffered because of that, while creating a monstrous cost overrun in engineering and flight testing. Yes, STOVL capabilities played a huge part in that, but I think it's all the flight control and sensor systems integration that really did the damage.

From a USAF air superiority perspective, they already had the F-22. Deployed in the kind of numbers the F-15 was, the USAF would pretty much be unstoppable in the air, while still retaining and developing the airstrike capabilities of the aircraft via software updates to it's equipment. The F-22's combination of stealth and kinematics makes it a potent strike-first platform against SAM and radar sites. The Distributed Aperture System could be a later upgrade as well.

Replacing the F-16 and A-10 actually doesn't require replacing them with a stealth aircraft when you have F-22s providing top cover. The F-16 in it's later blocks is already an excellent replacement for older F-16's. However, I'd say to hell with new F-16Es and go with F-16XLs, that already have double the range on internal fuel of F-16C/Ds, while offering much larger weapons capacities (including some semi-conformal) while not giving up hardpoints for external fuel. The only argument against the F-16XL is it's lack of stealth and reduced energy retention versus late block F-16s. It could be modified with RAM, a gold coated canopy and sawtooth edges, semi-conformal fuel tanks to further boost range, and many of the same systems the F-35 to produce a reasonable facsimile of F-35 capabilities. The aircraft could also be modified with a diverter-less intake (also tested on an F-16 before being used on the F-35) with a resigned s-intake pathway or stealth shielding (like in the B-1). The XL also uses an engine in use on late block F-16s and the F-15E, for simplified logistics versus adopting a new engine. It would only be a semi-stealth aircraft, but it's main mission would be as a strike fighter, not air superiority, which is covered by the F-22. The combination of DAS and radar technologies used for the F-35 scaled down would still be a potent combination. The F-16XL has plenty of room on it.



The other solution could be the a modified T-50 Golden Eagle, which itself is in the running for the USAF's T-X Supersonic trainer program to replace the T-38. It can accept an F414 engine instead of the current F404 if need be.



However, it does not have the same kind of capacity an F-16XL does, but it is smaller and cheaper, and there are cost savings in having a common platform for trainer, strike fighter and air patrol duties (not air superiority). The idea here is that we don't need an expensive all-around solution when we already have the very best solution for controlling the skies in the form of the F-22. The other scenarios don't require stealth when the F-22's provide air cover and knock out radar and SAM sites. We also have UCAVs for high risk ground strikes but I don't believe in relying on only them when it's possible to have jamming and EM blackouts, where a human piloted aircraft can still be controlled and maintain just as good, if not better situational awareness which becomes necessary when you have good guys on the ground to worry about.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
I love how people see TVC as some kind of magical enhancement when people seem to completely disregard the loss of energy that occurs when it's used in any practical form. You don't want to lose energy if you're in a multiple plane dogfight.
its generally sad because the TVC of the yf22 was one of the main deciding points in winning the ATF program over the yf23. (though northrop was unlikely to ever win anything after selling the USAF all those 1000's of defective icbms.) technically TVC wasnt even part of the ATF spec sheet, just a bonus feature lockheed threw in there. if it had been part of the spec, northrop would have added it.

the yf23 had a better stealth profile, larger weapons bay, and was faster. the yf22 was more maneuverable and the TVC was supposed to make it the ultimate dogfighter. as it turns out TVC is a last resort for when you have already lost the fight.

if offbore targeting missiles obviate the need to get the nose fully on target
then the yf22 shouldnt have won.
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
its generally sad because the TVC of the yf22 was one of the main deciding points in winning the ATF program over the yf23. (though northrop was unlikely to ever win anything after selling the USAF all those 1000's of defective icbms.)

the yf23 had a better stealth profile, larger weapons bay, and was faster. the yf22 was more maneuverable and the TVC was supposed to make it the ultimate dogfighter. as it turns out TVC is a last resort for when you have already lost the fight.

if offbore targeting missiles obviate the need to get the nose fully on target
then the yf22 shouldnt have won.

Maneuverable is a matter of many parameters *possibly*. Unfortunately we never hear about maneuverability in the context of energy maneuverability theory. But I would agree that Northrop was perhaps shafted, but I've read an interesting discussion on secretproject.co.uk about the YF-23. The discussion was specifically in reference to the fuselage structure of the YF-23 compared to the YF-22. The YF-22, not being as slender as the YF-23 possessed a more structurally robust fuselage box that could withstand the kind of sustained Gs and twisting loads that might be encountered in high speed missile avoidance maneuvers. These kind of maneuvers would be expected of an air dominance fighter when fighting into enemy airspace and especially in supercruise, and at those speeds, not only do the loads increase, but the time at those loads increase for the same amount of turn rate in terms of "G". Also, the GE YF-120 engine enjoyed extremely good performance on the YF-23, however, to this day, the engine's capabilities and the performance of the GE powered YF-23 remain classified. Considering it's supposed to be a combined cycle engine, it was extremely expensive compared to the PW F119, but superior for supercruise. The F-22 was built around the F119, not the YF-120. The YF-120/F-22 combination performed worse than the F119/F-22 combo. So effectively, the F119/F-22 combo yielded a cheaper and "readily available" solution even though the aircraft would see numerous changes before it's production design was finalized.

I really would love to see a proper cutaway of the YF-120.
 
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