The F-35 is a piece of garbage!

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JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126
So the navy is going to replace their carrier based planes with shorter range F35s at a time when carriers are parked further and further away from shore because of land fired Exocet 'carrier killer' anti-ship missles.

<face palm>
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
So the navy is going to replace their carrier based planes with shorter range F35s at a time when carriers are parked further and further away from shore because of land fired Exocet 'carrier killer' anti-ship missles.

<face palm>

IIRC the F-35s are actually longer ranged than many of the aircraft we use now. Its just that basically the whole fighter fleet of America is incredibly short ranged.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
So the navy is going to replace their carrier based planes with shorter range F35s at a time when carriers are parked further and further away from shore because of land fired Exocet 'carrier killer' anti-ship missles.

<face palm>
No
Not even close
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
yada yada yada...tell the Israeli Air force the f 35 is a piece of garbage...rofl....hhahaaaaaa
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
No
Not even close

They are better than what we use now, but I still think basically all of our planes are way too short ranged. And that includes the F-22, which IIRC is actually notably shorter ranged than aircraft like the F-15, F-16, or F/A-18.
 

Skunk-Works

Senior member
Jun 29, 2016
983
328
91
They are better than what we use now, but I still think basically all of our planes are way too short ranged. And that includes the F-22, which IIRC is actually notably shorter ranged than aircraft like the F-15, F-16, or F/A-18.


Even with external fuel tanks?
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Even with external fuel tanks?

Those might add range, but they lower maneuverability and reduce the amount of weapons that can be carried, and in the case of the F-22 and F-35 they compromise their stealth, which means they lose one of their best assets, and they become seen flying ducks in the environment they are supposed to be operating in.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
IIRC the F-35s are actually longer ranged than many of the aircraft we use now. Its just that basically the whole fighter fleet of America is incredibly short ranged.

Not really.

Lets just call out the elephant in the room being the F\A-18 family including the Superhornet. A draggy airframe that is gimped from the start. Hornet has the range of a house hold cat and the Super Hornet compensates with big gas tanks + as many drop tanks it can carry before being able to get "ok range".
We've done the best we can with that plane but it is what it is.
AV8b's...well they aren't exactly long legged aircraft either.

I think I mentioned before that "range" is a complicated topic.
Depends on a lot of factors including mission profile, weapon load in addition to basic aerodynamic design and fuel capacity.

F-16's and F-15E's with drop tanks + conformal tanks and full combat load are long legged aircraft. Issue with the F-15 is that they show up as a bus on everyone's radar.

F-15C and F-22 have a completely different mission profile and cannot be compared. They pretty much live up at high altitude which is very range friendly.
F-22's are known to be thirsty.
The 6th gen fighter program and adaptive engine program has range and fuel consumption high on the list of requirements.

The F-35 has excellent range on internal fuel with a combat load.
None of the aircraft it is replacing can say the same.

Toss drop tanks into the equation and the internet myth of F-35 range disappears.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
Those might add range, but they lower maneuverability and reduce the amount of weapons that can be carried, and in the case of the F-22 and F-35 they compromise their stealth, which means they lose one of their best assets, and they become seen flying ducks in the environment they are supposed to be operating in.

You do not lose stealthiness by carrying drop tanks.
You reduce it...yes but not so much where you are saying "Everyone can see me now"
You need to remember its all about detection ranges.
An F-22 or F-35 without drop tanks might get detected at x miles out (if at all)
An F-15 without drop tanks gets detected at x+80 miles out
A super Hornet without drop tanks gets detected at x+45 miles out.

An F-22 or F-35 with droptanks gets detected at x+5 to 10 miles out
An F-15 with droptanks gets detected at x+100 miles out
A super Hornet without drop tanks gets detected at x+55 miles out.

In other words, the impact of drop tanks to signature is negligible when compared to what your alternatives are.
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I think I mentioned before that "range" is a complicated topic.

Well, the main concern that has been huge in my current thinking is the ability for naval aircraft to hit the same targets they have before, but this time with the aircraft carrier groups restricted to operating much further back due to the massive A2/AD threat, especially stuff like ASCM and DF-21 ASBM. Add to that the need for long range missiles so that the aircraft themselves do not have to come in close range to AA defenses, especially stuff like the S-400.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
Well, the main concern that has been huge in my current thinking is the ability for naval aircraft to hit the same targets they have before, but this time with the aircraft carrier groups restricted to operating much further back due to the massive A2/AD threat, especially stuff like ASCM and DF-21 ASBM. Add to that the need for long range missiles so that the aircraft themselves do not have to come in close range to AA defenses, especially stuff like the S-400.

Carrier groups are not as restricted as you think.
Research the work we've been doing with SM-6 \Standard Missile.
Also pay attention to stuff related to this
https://news.usni.org/2016/09/13/vi...test-points-expansion-networked-naval-warfare.

S-400 is great system for protecting yourself against last gen weapons.
You can safely assume that the US navy can handle that accordingly.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
You need to remember its all about detection ranges.

Far too many see stealth as binary: you are either invisible or have the radar signature of a barn door. People need to remember that the U.S. has a huge lead in both stealth technologies, and in sensor technology. So Russian aircraft do not have anything in the class of the APG-77, and I'd argue they probably never will.

All that said, I'd bet a pretty penny that you will never see an F-22 or F-35 strapping EFTs when the mission involves confronting a credible air defense. AA refueling will be used instead.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
Far too many see stealth as binary: you are either invisible or have the radar signature of a barn door. People need to remember that the U.S. has a huge lead in both stealth technologies, and in sensor technology. So Russian aircraft do not have anything in the class of the APG-77, and I'd argue they probably never will.

All that said, I'd bet a pretty penny that you will never see an F-22 or F-35 strapping EFTs when the mission involves confronting a credible air defense. AA refueling will be used instead.

Correct
Unlike other aircraft, F-35's and F-22 have more options to skip the bags and go it alone.
Gonna be interesting once they introduce buddy refueling to the F-35.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Correct
Unlike other aircraft, F-35's and F-22 have more options to skip the bags and go it alone.
Gonna be interesting once they introduce buddy refueling to the F-35.

The big tankers will be somewhat limited in being able to refuel F-22s and F-35s in high-intensity warzones, but stuff like that wingman refueling and the MQ-25 Stingray should give 5th generation aircraft some refueling capability in high-intensity warzones.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
You burn a lot of fuel climbing 10 miles into the sky in a 25 ton jet. Tankers don't need to be very far from the airfield or carrier to significantly extend the range of a tactical jet.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
You burn a lot of fuel climbing 10 miles into the sky in a 25 ton jet. Tankers don't need to be very far from the airfield or carrier to significantly extend the range of a tactical jet.

Didnt know that. It does make a lot of sense however. Guess a lot of it is all about momentum.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Didnt know that. It does make a lot of sense however. Guess a lot of it is all about momentum.

I also think that depending on its loadout some jets can't take off with topped off fuel tanks because of weight restrictions.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Also, everything that I've read says that the current F-35s being delivered can only hold two long range air-air missiles (can't currently carry short range "dog fighting" missiles) and two bombs and it will be many years before this is rectified. Supposedly the cannon isn't accurate either due to the drag created by opening the gun door causing the aircraft to move slightly. Is it just me or does this seem like a seriously limited combat loadout?

There are also issues with the sensor fusion technology that forces pilots to turn off some of the sensors so they don't see "ghost targets" yet we are taking delivery of the aircraft in this condition? I mean I really want to see the F-35 be a serious badass but why the hell would we be buying gimped up planes that we are going to have to pay to have "upgraded" to what they are supposed to be in the future?

Edit: Oh yeah, they currently require civilian contractors to be deployed with them because of some maintenance software bullshit that takes a day per jet to setup. So if you deploy 10 jets it will take 10 days before they are all operational.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
Also, everything that I've read says that the current F-35s being delivered can only hold two long range air-air missiles (can't currently carry short range "dog fighting" missiles) and two bombs and it will be many years before this is rectified. Supposedly the cannon isn't accurate either due to the drag created by opening the gun door causing the aircraft to move slightly. Is it just me or does this seem like a seriously limited combat loadout?

There are also issues with the sensor fusion technology that forces pilots to turn off some of the sensors so they don't see "ghost targets" yet we are taking delivery of the aircraft in this condition? I mean I really want to see the F-35 be a serious badass but why the hell would we be buying gimped up planes that we are going to have to pay to have "upgraded" to what they are supposed to be in the future?

Edit: Oh yeah, they currently require civilian contractors to be deployed with them because of some maintenance software bullshit that takes a day per jet to setup. So if you deploy 10 jets it will take 10 days before they are all operational.

I think you need to find new sources.
I could have sworn that correct info and explanation were posted earlier in this thread.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
I think you need to find new sources.
I could have sworn that correct info and explanation were posted earlier in this thread.

I was just searching around and the info on the AAMs is a little confusing. Currently the F-35 can carry 4 AMRAAMs internally. That will go up to six in a later block update (early 2020s). They can carry AIM-9x, but only externally because it is a rail launched missile. (It would probably not be difficult to develop a drop version, but it would need to be funded, which doesn't seem too likely right now).

4 AAMs is fine. How often do fighters exhaust their AAM stores these days? It's rare to shoot more than one missile. The days of epic air battles around long bomber formations are gone.
 

chimaxi83

Diamond Member
May 18, 2003
5,649
61
101
Edit: Oh yeah, they currently require civilian contractors to be deployed with them because of some maintenance software bullshit that takes a day per jet to setup. So if you deploy 10 jets it will take 10 days before they are all operational.

Maybe you're just a painfully inefficient government worker, but... why wouldn't they all be done together? Lol
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
I was just searching around and the info on the AAMs is a little confusing. Currently the F-35 can carry 4 AMRAAMs internally. That will go up to six in a later block update (early 2020s). They can carry AIM-9x, but only externally because it is a rail launched missile. (It would probably not be difficult to develop a drop version, but it would need to be funded, which doesn't seem too likely right now).

4 AAMs is fine. How often do fighters exhaust their AAM stores these days? It's rare to shoot more than one missile. The days of epic air battles around long bomber formations are gone.

Too keep it short and to the point.


Block 3f brings lots of toys to the table.






Wonder what they are planning for future blocks?

 
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