The F-35 is a piece of garbage!

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xthetenth

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Oct 14, 2014
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Reminds me of a great story in revolt of the Iron Majors:


The IAF received twenty-one more F-15s in 1977 and 1978, but most of the pilots chosen to fly it were young pilots with little experience, to the chagrin of many of the IAF.s older aces. Most of these aces flew the Mirage III, a very small, simple, French fighter with virtually no avionics and armed with only cannon and simple heat-seeking missiles. Israeli Air Force pilots universally accepted the idea it was the pilot and his skills, not the aircraft, which made the difference in a dogfight, and these old aces initially looked forward to training dogfights in their Mirages against the F-15s flown by the young .rookies.

But their first engagements with F-15s left the Mirage pilots shaking their heads. One Mirage ace with fourteen kills described his first fight with an F-15 whose pilot was just out of F-15 training school to the author. .The rules were that he could not use his AIM-7s, so the fight began with a head-on pass. I started to turn and he pulled up and came around on me. I saw him make three or four mistakes on the way that I could have easily taken advantage of if he had been in a regular fighter, but there was nothing I could do to counter the F-15. He shot me down within forty seconds. I flew home in my Mirage, both of us feeling very old and out of date..23


On the other hand I'm quite fond of the story of F-106s squaring off against F-16s and the latter saying they were okay with simulating any weapons. After the nuclear rocket proved its superiority at long range the 106 pilot had basically nothing left.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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On the other hand I'm quite fond of the story of F-106s squaring off against F-16s and the latter saying they were okay with simulating any weapons. After the nuclear rocket proved its superiority at long range the 106 pilot had basically nothing left.

I remember that story too, don't remember where I heard it. I think they had a second pass where the F-106 pilot nosed over and hit the deck with full afterburner and escaped because he was so much faster than the Viper. The third time the F-16 won though.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
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I remember that story too, don't remember where I heard it. I think they had a second pass where the F-106 pilot nosed over and hit the deck with full afterburner and escaped because he was so much faster than the Viper. The third time the F-16 won though.

Yeah, I think the 106 set it up by doing something that killed speed by taking advantage of a particular corner of the 106's performance envelope, and then went for max speed, but outside that he had literally nothing.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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Yeah, I think the 106 set it up by doing something that killed speed by taking advantage of a particular corner of the 106's performance envelope, and then went for max speed, but outside that he had literally nothing.

F-106, like older Mirages have awesome instantaneous turn rates then BAM wall of drag.
In other words, you can bring that nose around pretty quickly but after 90° you have bled off all your speed.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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F-106, like older Mirages have awesome instantaneous turn rates then BAM wall of drag.
In other words, you can bring that nose around pretty quickly but after 90° you have bled off all your speed.

Is that because of the delta wing? I'm amazed it wouldn't just stall at that kind of alpha. Reminds me of the cobra "maneuver" the Flanker variants do where they nose up and then back down after dropping a hundred knots.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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Is that because of the delta wing? I'm amazed it wouldn't just stall at that kind of alpha. Reminds me of the cobra "maneuver" the Flanker variants do where they nose up and then back down after dropping a hundred knots.

Overall the flanker airframe is much nicer than the F-15 isnt it? Given stealth isnt an issue, a flanker and its superior handling when outfitted with American avionics should outfight the F-15 in WVR while having the same BVR performance?
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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Is that because of the delta wing? I'm amazed it wouldn't just stall at that kind of alpha. Reminds me of the cobra "maneuver" the Flanker variants do where they nose up and then back down after dropping a hundred knots.

Technically, Mig 21's and Su-27 are delta wings (tailed delta)

With the classic "I'm a triangle....har har" planes, increasing AoA with all the wing area results in (insert aeronautic math crap) causing lots of drag and shenanniggans . There are design elements that can help though.

There are lot of performance benefits to the design but generally you need to compensate with powerful engines if you want to play the sustained turn game.
Modern EF2000s and Rafales have enough thrust to play in a sustained turn.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
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Technically, Mig 21's and Su-27 are delta wings (tailed delta)

With the classic "I'm a triangle....har har" planes, increasing AoA with all the wing area results in (insert aeronautic math crap) causing lots of drag and shenanniggans . There are design elements that can help though.
.
"One good turn" is a pretty apt phrase, I think.
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
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Yeah, pauldun's link does a good job summarizing the limitations of low frequency radars. I think you could theoretically build an array of LF transmitters/receivers that could track an F-35, but it would be the size of a football stadium and you'd have no way to steer the thing.

Not really. There´s lots of "cheats" to use. I´m rather surprised noone in the thread seems to have a clue about them considering a bundle of countries have had them in R&D since at least early 90s.

From my own country, SAAB Gripen can already use its datalink to form a simulated larger radar array using multiple aircraft, while advanced signalprocessing is capable of negating stealth to some degree even for singles.
Confirmed F-35 detected, by 4 Gripen running a virtual radar array, around 50km. Single Gripen, 20+km.

More importantly, this is CURRENT GENERATION sensors. Next generation stuff for the Gripen NG already exists and should "double or better" ability against stealth and "fully overcome" guidance limitations(there´s already a software update for current tech that should allow effective guidance against stealth targets, just at reduced range compared to normal).


And seriously, those in the thread hyping the F-35? Its aerodynamics pretty much sucks(too slow, mixes designs for supersonic and subsonic, being suboptimal for both, it maneuvers poorly...), it will either have poor stealth, poor range or poor weaponload, or at worst all three, depending on setup, and its "supercool" gadgets that are supposed to give it all those ubernice advantages, 9 out of 10 of those doesn´t work(glasscockpit lags and is "fuzzy", datalink creates ghost targets and sometimes fails to display real targets, advanced linking isn´t even out of early testing(why? Sweden got that working almost 20 years ago) etc), the weapon bay is having so much problems its not even funny, the plane requires an insanely ridiculous amount of ground manhours per flighthour(and every techie needs to be stupidly overeducated to work with it), the "cheap" stealth material isn´t cheap at all, the gunport "flaps".

It has so many issues i can´t even remember half of them, heck i don´t think i even managed a quarter of them above. It was a really hideous concept from the beginning, and it´s unlikely to ever become a truly successful aircraft.
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
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4 AIM-120s is fine, but I think they should be able to carry at least 2 AIM-9x. How does the F-22 carry them? It carries them in their own bays on the side correct?

Where ever did you get that idea from? Sidewinders are currently unable to launch from the bays at all, so only pylon or wingtip mounts. Which of course increases the radar cross section massively. And there never were any extra weapon bays for them.

And no, 4 AIM-120s are certainly not enough, there´s good reason why Russia have started using a doctrine of firing missiles in packs of 2-4 with mixed seekers, modern countermeasures have simply become so strong that firing singles against any kind of peer enemy is likely to be futile.

Worse still, the AMRAAM in particular has not aged well, what was once its best part(fire&forget ability) is now a severe drawback, because countermeasures are more effective against weaker trackers/seekers, and missiles have crap for tracking compared to the fighter that launched it.

Except for the F-35 of course, because it´s using a "low visibility" radar that makes absolutely no sense, because ever since the 90s/early 00s, that "low visibility" feature no longer really works beyond a marginal effect(as an example, once SAAB got information on it, it took them just a few months to do a software only update that negated over 50% of the feature), while it cripples the F-35s ability to target anyone else, especially anyone else that happens to have stealth as well. Meaning that F-35 is severely crippled if it ever faces off against anything truly peer level.

Old AIM-7s that have been upgraded to current standards are actually more effective against modern fighters than AMRAAM. METEOR is considerably better(mostly thanks to simply being newer), but still falls way short of where it was once expected to be by now.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
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I'm still kind of amazed that Congress thought that this was a good idea. Did they know nothing about aircraft development?

Like, a joint Navy/Air Force fighter makes sense, but VTOL added on top is just stupid. It gimps the Navy/Air Force version. Whose harebrained idea was it to jam in VTOL in there? It probably cost the USA an addition $100 billion when it is all said and done.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,138
5,074
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Confirmed F-35 detected, by 4 Gripen running a virtual radar array, around 50km. Single Gripen, 20+km.

Oh...
Why not post your evidence.
Or explain how you ended up on Anandtech
and the curious content of all your posts on Anandtech.


What brought you to a tech site where you are commenting on "Russia" posts and 'F-35" posts?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
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edit: oops, didn't realize this was a troll. They constantly have to ban these guys on f-16.net

I feel bad for them, it's mostly just a bunch of current and former service guys talking about planes and flying, and has no real influence outside their tiny sphere.

But they get targeted because their boards are somehow seen as valuable turf in the propaganda wars.
 
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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,152
15,772
126
I'm still kind of amazed that Congress thought that this was a good idea. Did they know nothing about aircraft development?

Like, a joint Navy/Air Force fighter makes sense, but VTOL added on top is just stupid. It gimps the Navy/Air Force version. Whose harebrained idea was it to jam in VTOL in there? It probably cost the USA an addition $100 billion when it is all said and done.
Why should the congress man and congresswoman be experts on aorcraft design? Their job is to secure funding, it is Pentagon's job to pick a winner.
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
8
76
Oh...
Why not post your evidence.
Or explain how you ended up on Anandtech
and the curious content of all your posts on Anandtech.


What brought you to a tech site where you are commenting on "Russia" posts and 'F-35" posts?

Wow, what an amazing surprise that the F-35 fanboy goes instantly kneejerk.

"all my posts"? Considering that my older posts on the forum have apparently disappeared while i was inactive here, you DID notice that i registered in 2003, you haven´t seen "all my posts". Or maybe you missed that while you were busy exploding in righteous fury over how anyone dares to point out reality about your precious fanwank project.

What brought me to a techsite is because the techsite forum i used to frequent the most is supposed to shut down, effective 1/1-17, even if it´s still up for now. And if i´m really lucky, we might even see posts from there migrated onto anandtech, not that i´m counting on that as it´s not exactly likely.

Isn´t it interesting how you instantly start with personal attacks when contradicted? Having issues with insecurity? Or maybe you´re just not very good enough at throwing logical fallacies around to hide what they are?

And obviously i do not have any easily postable evidence, because that kind of thing tends to not get brought up in any official way online. You can find others mentioning similar things if you actually try to search rather than sit around and bitch about what you don´t know, especially since my country isn´t alone in working with "antistealth" solutions, most 1st world nations have something in the works.
It´s one of the reasons why the Gripen NG isn´t going to add as much stealth materials as originally planned, because the benefits no longer justify the costs.

And why do i post about Russia? Oh yeah, i live across the Baltic from Russia, maybe it´s a LITTLE bit worrying that USA has spent the last few years trying to push for war there?

Oh and BTW, you two realise how pathetic it is to start shouting trolling at the drop of a hat? Seriously, has AT gone so downhill since i was here last time?
 
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pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,138
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nonsense wall of text

Didn't read your wall of text. Don't care

Why not talk about
Confirmed F-35 detected, by 4 Gripen running a virtual radar array, around 50km. Single Gripen, 20+km.

Since you like talking about the Gripen "NG"
Why don't you tell us all how many are in operational service.
Better yet, tell us how many "NG" are flying today and where. Also how is it that there are 4 of them and they were involved in exercises where ran through the scenario you described.

I'll give you some time so you can run back to google.


I'm looking forward to all the wonderful information you have to share about the "Gripen NG" and how its systems are so capable.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
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136
I really like how the 25mm main Gatling gun will not be available for two more years. Even the Russians mounted a 30mm gun on their new ground support aircraft.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I really like how the 25mm main Gatling gun will not be available for two more years. Even the Russians mounted a 30mm gun on their new ground support aircraft.

Its not a gatling. And what ground support aircraft are you talking about here?

The Frogfoot?

Its nothing like the F-35, its the Russian version of the A-10 Warthog.
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
8
76
Didn't read your wall of text. Don't care

Why not talk about


Since you like talking about the Gripen "NG"
Why don't you tell us all how many are in operational service.
Better yet, tell us how many "NG" are flying today and where. Also how is it that there are 4 of them and they were involved in exercises where ran through the scenario you described.

I'll give you some time so you can run back to google.


I'm looking forward to all the wonderful information you have to share about the "Gripen NG" and how its systems are so capable.

Not reading what i wrote just shows you to be the obvious troll here. What reason do i have to reply at all if you ignore it?

Then perhaps you should start taking some lessons on actually reading, as you clearly have issues understanding extremely basic concepts like more than one model being mentioned, "Gripen" as in current models and "Gripen NG" of which there is 2 prototypes, or 1 or 0 depending on how you count, there´s two planes flying, testing the gear for the NG.

So, amazingly, if i write "Gripen" i am talking about the current C/D model, NOT the NG, what a surprise! Or do i need to explain it simpler words and bigger letters?

And about "capable systems", USA is just bloody awful at getting things up and running.
Let´s use my standard example shall we?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round
"STRIX has been in service with the Swedish and Swiss Armies since 1994."

It´s basically the same as the US XM395, developed in 10 years for less money than it took USA to even get through its original viability study on whether USA should develop a round like this, and THAT came AFTER STRIX was already in active service here.
Funny thing, the "X" in the US round name? Means it´s still a prototype, even funnier, the current model of STRIX is even now still more capable, despite the last update being years ago.
So, 10 years, spending less than USA did just on deciding whether it wanted the same thing, while USA is now on 20 years of development(including some lawsuits and change of developer) and STILL haven´t been able to do better.


What´s in Gripen is just the result of continued development of the STRIL2000 communications and datalink system(i don´t remember what the name became when it went into service, they just had to make it something troublesome instead of just sticking with the simple style STRIL-50/60/90 that preceeded it).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STRIL no info beyond STRIL-90 and that´s just mentioned.

Anyway, the STRIL-2k has as one of its "big things" that it can do networked stuff, you know the stuff that is supposed to be in the F-35 but doesn´t work at all?
Basic idea being that if ANY sensor has a target, ANY other unit connected to the system that has weapons in range can shoot. And it works. But it´s going to work a damned lot better once the Meteor is the standard missile.



And then, just because i´m sooo nice, let´s post some numbers i dragged together last year or something:

Rough cost per flighthour as estimated by Jane´s and other sources:

F-35 32000$(minimum figure, adjusted for future numbers advantages that may never happen and may be nothing but wishful thinking anyway),

F-22, 44000-64000$. There´s some claims that places the cost even higher, but i think those are based on including lifetime upgrade costs.

SAAB-39 Gripen 4700$(very nonoptimal, with larger numbers or even just a more active organisation, cut by 1/3 or more),

F-16 ~7000$, probably fairly accurate.

F/A-18 Hornet, ~10000$.

F/A-18 Super Hornet, 11000-24000$ depending on how much "leet" gear you stuff it with and operations style and conditions.

Rafale 16500$, probably realistic.

Typhoon 18000$.

F-15C/E, 30000/28000$, probably too high estimates, under optimal conditions they´re supposed to be able to come within 30% of Typhoon, which would be less than 24000$, so likely includes the basic lifetime fixes.

A-10 3000$, probably too low estimate, it can usually skip some maintenance under operational conditions simply because it´s so sturdy, still probably not above 5000-6000$ even under suboptimal conditions, so even when things go poorly, it´s still pretty much on the cheap side. Some statements places it at 12000$, but that is probably full lifetime costs including upgrades.

Now then, maintenance hours per flighthour:

F-22, 34-45 hours on ground per flighthour.

F-35, 9-30+ hours. 9 is what the C is supposed to be capable of under optimal conditions, but this is probably unrealistic at best and pure propaganda at worst, figures around 20-22 seems to apply for a more average situation. However, here comes the big kicker, these hours are based on having SEVENTEEN qualified technicians AND an unstated number(probably 6) of semiskilled assistants working on EACH plane. >30 hours is for when conditions mess with the F-35s RAM, because while cheaper than the RAM of the F-22, it´s also inferior and can be just as troublesome to work with.

F-16, 19-20 hours. Can be cut a fair amount simply by assigning more technicians and people to assist.

Typhoon, 9-15 hours. Can definitely be cut a bit further.

F/A-18 Super Hornet, 15 hours? Uncertain figure, may not include engine maintenance.

Gripen, 9 hours, but this is extremely nonoptimized with only TWO technicians assigned and no assistants. When flown over Libya, this number was sometimes pushed down towards a tiny 1-2 hours, just by having more technicians and some mostly unskilled assistants available. I also have a statement that specifies that it normally needs 12 MANhours of maintenance per flighthour. (compare that to the lowest claims of 207 and the more realistic 480 for the F-35)

A-10, 6-7 hours. If you don´t mind the wear and tear, this can be reduced a lot. It has flown for week+ times under wartime conditions with a mere 1:1 flighthour to maintenance hours ratio. Longterm wear is much increased by doing so but it can probably do a 1:2 or at least 1:3 ratio for as long as wanted if they try.

Rafale, 8 hours. This is a partially optimised number, but still realistic for wartime condition operations. Expect they could cut it down to maybe 5-6 hours if they tried seriously.

B-2, 124 hours.

Mirage-2000, 6-10 hours or 10.5 manhours per flighthour.


If you absolutely must fansquee about a modern plane, can´t you at least choose something that WORKS? I mean the F-22 is at least not a joke in process like the F-35.
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
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Its not a gatling. And what ground support aircraft are you talking about here?

The Frogfoot?

Its nothing like the F-35, its the Russian version of the A-10 Warthog.

Wow, someone who knows a rotary cannon does NOT automatically equate to "Gatling".
Well done.

Puffnstuff said:
I really like how the 25mm main Gatling gun will not be available for two more years. Even the Russians mounted a 30mm gun on their new ground support aircraft.

Uh, the GSh-30-2 has been on the Su-25 since from the beginning, 1978. The MiG-27 has used the GSh-30-6 since 1970. And USA is pretty much alone in being late to switching to heavier guns for aircraft.

Try, for example, looking up the 27mm KCA that was on the fighter version of Viggen, only fighter to use 30x173 ammo. As a comparison, the A-10s GAU-8 and the air to ground GAU-13 cannon pods for F-16 also use 30x173.
The later Gripen switched down to the much less extreme BK-27 which can pretty much be called the normal for fighter guns today.
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
8
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The later Gripen switched down to the much less extreme BK-27 which can pretty much be called the normal for fighter guns today.

As an addition to this, i´ll add in a comment from another forum:
autogun said:
Yes. It is significant that in the only recent fighter competition involving an open choice of cannon - the JSF, now the F-35 - both LockMart and Boeing evaluated available guns and both selected the Mauser BK 27 as offering the best balance between effectiveness, size and weight. The fact that the F-35 ended up with a 25mm rotary gun seems to have been due partly to a costly exercise in "Americanising" the BK 27 rather than just taking it off the shelf, and also down to the fact that the contract for sorting out the F-35 armament installation was awarded to GD - who just happen to make rotary 25mm guns...
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,138
5,074
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@DIREWOLF75
My apologies for making assumptions.

Confirmed F-35 detected, by 4 Gripen running a virtual radar array, around 50km. Single Gripen, 20+km.
I'll ask again
What specific exercise (Name\Date) involving 4 Gripens C\D's resulted in detection of a participating F-35s.
What scenario was run?
 

DIREWOLF75

Member
Nov 22, 2003
30
8
76
@DIREWOLF75
My apologies for making assumptions.


I'll ask again
What specific exercise (Name\Date) involving 4 Gripens C\D's resulted in detection of a participating F-35s.
What scenario was run?

None, as it was not part of any exercise. F-35 was being "paraded about" for some non-US buyers and happened to be in the same region as the Gripens. They weren´t supposed to notice it at all since their flightpaths were widely separated. As the F-35 was stated as flying "silent" it is said to have caused quite a bit of "shouting" among some brass.
What it means is that by now, all the up to date current west European fighters, Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon have shown that they are capable of tracking F-35 even when they, according to promises should never be able to. But like i said before, the stealth promises for F-35 are based on not facing anything beyond 90s sensor tech and absolutely no "antistealth" tech. So, while very nice to have if facing 2nd rate opposition, all the rest of the time, most notably in peacetime, the RAM is just so much VERY expensive not quite junk.

In short, it´s not a fighter, it´s a low visibility bombtruck with delusions of grandeur.

I might also add that the system the Gripen uses for the kind of multisensor integration that saw through the stealth, is conceptually similar to a more developed variation on the system that USSR developed for the MiG-31 in the 80s. Coupled with the raw power and overall improvements the radar on the upgraded MiG-31s have, i think it´s extremely likely that they would have little issue in both tracking and targeting F-35s way beyond its threatrange.
 
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