The F-35 is a piece of garbage!

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Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
So if one was to use affordable designs, for example what you might use on a jet trainer, how cheap would you be able to build a jet aircraft, probably multi-role, that used a basic AESA, fly-by-wire, and power-by-wire? And what about if you were to add IRST and IFCS?

Considering the FA-50 flyaway cost is about $30 million (FYI 2012 according to Wiki), I imagine well over $40 million, probably closer to $50M. IRST would probably be mounted as a pod instead of built onto the nose in front of the windshield. Developing full power by wire, AESA, and integrated IRST would add a great deal of cost just because of engineering, testing, and certification alone. The cost of those components are hella expensive. At least Lockheed has experience with power by wire thanks to the F-35.

What is IFCS?
 
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pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,140
5,077
136
The KAI/Lockheed T-50 Golden Eagle fits this niche very nicely, with lightweight fighter and strike capabilities on top of it's supersonic training role. My biggest change to the platform would be the GE F414 engine over the current F404. Even with that change, it should be a much cheaper plane to operate where stealth isn't necessary.

The FA-50 makes a nice little fighter for a small country with a tight budget who just needs something to scare Cesna's away from the border but for US purposes this thing is basically useless outside of its original trainer duties.
Add any combat load and its already short range goes to zip.
The detection range on it radar is less than half that of the set on the F-16.

Price is low but its not much cheaper than a Gripen which is probably one of the better bargain hunters fighter on the market nowadays. At least Saab gives out free blowjobs with every Gripen sold.
KAI get all uncomfortable with just a simple handshake.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,140
5,077
136
Considering the FA-50 flyaway cost is about $30 million (FYI 2012 according to Wiki), I imagine well over $40 million, probably closer to $50M. IRST would probably be mounted as a pod instead of built onto the nose in front of the windshield. Developing full power by wire, AESA, and integrated IRST would add a great deal of cost just because of engineering, testing, and certification alone. The cost of those components are hella expensive. At least Lockheed has experience with power by wire thanks to the F-35.

What is IFCS?

It'll be interesting to see the route they go with on the AESA. Lot of paths they can take but I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung jumps into the mix.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
What is IFCS?

Intelligent Flight Control System.

A newer flight control system, called intelligent flight control system (IFCS), is an extension of modern digital fly-by-wire flight control systems. The aim is to intelligently compensate for aircraft damage and failure during flight, such as automatically using engine thrust and other avionics to compensate for severe failures such as loss of hydraulics, loss of rudder, loss of ailerons, loss of an engine, etc. Several demonstrations were made on a flight simulator where a Cessna-trained small-aircraft pilot successfully landed a heavily damaged full-size concept jet, without prior experience with large-body jet aircraft. This development is being spearheaded by NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.[19] It is reported that enhancements are mostly software upgrades to existing fully computerized digital fly-by-wire flight control systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire#Intelligent_flight_control_system
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
So would I be correct in thinking about the move from mechanical arrays to AESA like the move from tube computers to transistors, or the move from crts to lcds?

What are the prospects for dramatically reducing the costs of AESA, and more or less turning AESA into a commodity (not sure if this is the term I am looking for but whatever), much like with smart systems, through economies of scale and other technological advances, like what has been done with lcds in the world economy?
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
So would I be correct in thinking about the move from mechanical arrays to AESA like the move from tube computers to transistors, or the move from crts to lcds?

What are the prospects for dramatically reducing the costs of AESA, and more or less turning AESA into a commodity (not sure if this is the term I am looking for but whatever), much like with smart systems, through economies of scale and other technological advances, like what has been done with lcds in the world economy?

How big of a potential market is AESA? Unless it gets into cars (quite possible, I guess) I don't think it's that large. I certainly don't think I need one in my house. I saw the usefulness for LCD and silicon chips pretty quickly.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
How big of a potential market is AESA? Unless it gets into cars (quite possible, I guess) I don't think it's that large. I certainly don't think I need one in my house. I saw the usefulness for LCD and silicon chips pretty quickly.

Every radar currently in existence, plus any applications which could benefit from radar equipment. This might possibly apply more to electronic arrays overall, instead of just AESA however. Think there are no moving parts in an electronically scanned array radar more or less.
 
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Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
Every radar currently in existence, plus any applications which could benefit from radar equipment. This might possibly apply more to electronic arrays overall, instead of just AESA however. Think there are no moving parts in an electronically scanned array radar more or less.

Yeah, it would probably be a big improvement in all (?) situations. But it's not one size fits all. Air traffic control, commercial airliner, private plane, air defense, side-scan intel, naval surface search, etc etc would probably all need their own version. None of those markets are individually large enough to compare to consumer electronics goods in scale afaict.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,717
1,090
136
The FA-50 makes a nice little fighter for a small country with a tight budget who just needs something to scare Cesna's away from the border but for US purposes this thing is basically useless outside of its original trainer duties.
Add any combat load and its already short range goes to zip.
The detection range on it radar is less than half that of the set on the F-16.

Price is low but its not much cheaper than a Gripen which is probably one of the better bargain hunters fighter on the market nowadays. At least Saab gives out free blowjobs with every Gripen sold.
KAI get all uncomfortable with just a simple handshake.

boeing and saab are working together on a submission to the tx program. a new design, not a cut down gripen. most likely part of the boeing/lockheed new custom composites building process used on the x-55. http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-obscure-skunk-works-jet-may-help-team-win-new-stea-1697207263
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Let's just build drones from now on. No more manned fighters.

Your blind trust is astounding.

I'd trust a pilot more than a drone for close air support. Maybe you have Toxoplasma gondii.
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Drone is a misnomer. Any large enough to replace a manned aircraft have a pilot.

Northrop Grumman X-47B

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B

Northrop Grumman X-47C

The Northrop Grumman X-47C is designed to be a stealth, unmanned aircraft.[1] Its ancestors the X-47A and the X-47B made this unmanned aircraft possible to carry out the "stealth" that was needed in order to be undetectable by radar.[1] It is planned to have a payload of 10,000 pounds (4,500 kg), significantly exceeding that of the X-47A.[1] The initial date for building the aircraft was in 2018, although changes will most likely be made as in whether to continue with the design or to use a more advanced system.[1]
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,753
4,563
136
What is this thing even really for? China? As if we would abandon all the infrastructure and plants and rare metals there for all out war? Seems like the day that happens it's going to come down to the nukes more than the planes. This thing seems like it would have been awesome in WW2 before everyone was splitting the atom. Now not so much.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Why the fuck do they mention a "cockpit ejection seat"?

There is a cockpit, which happens to have a seat, which happens to be ejectable.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
What is this thing even really for? China? As if we would abandon all the infrastructure and plants and rare metals there for all out war? Seems like the day that happens it's going to come down to the nukes more than the planes. This thing seems like it would have been awesome in WW2 before everyone was splitting the atom. Now not so much.

SEAD.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
The F-35 is actually a great, albeit very expensive design that should serve the United States fleet very well. Its ace card is the avionics package and its ability to identify and collect intelligence data. Unfortunately I think what people don't realize is that most air combat these days is against ground targets. If there is the potential threat for enemy aircraft in an area, the United States will field air superiority fighters on combat patrols (F22 and F15's) alongside F-35s to address the targets.

Also, the F-35B is a necessary design because a vital component to US force projection isn't just our aircraft carriers, but the Amphibious Assault Ships that form the vanguard for getting US forces onto a beachhead. These ships, like the aircraft carriers, also launch fighter aircraft and are currently operating Harrier II's, which the F-35B is a massive upgrade to.

Most fighter aircraft are just bomb trucks.

Yep.

The arguments in this thread for dogfighting sound like rehashed arguments for keeping the mighty battleship. The nature of modern war is very different from what it was in the past.

The two arguments have their similarities, but they're not quite the same. The F-35 is supposed to be built in the thousands to replace an entire fleet of Air force, Marine Corp, and Navy aircraft. The battleship argument is about the US Navy's ability to provide Naval Surface Fire Support (NSFS), which is a much more specialized role. The 16" guns of the Iowa's are of their own class of firepower support that still cannot be matched by a cruiser or destroyer. Their destructive power is phenomenal, and their psychological effect on an enemy is simply unreal, and cannot be replicated by smaller caliber weaponry. You can't really describe it in words. Although their range is very short by today's warfare standards, advances in metallurgy, powder, and shell design could extend their 24 mile range to 50-100 miles or more with greater accuracy. On top of that, everyone talks about the 70 mile range of the AGS that'll be fitted onto the Zumwalts, but those guns can just as easily be outfitted to the Iowas too.

Arguments for keeping the battleships are as follows:

1. We spent $22.5 billion dollars designing and building three Zumwalt class destroyers. Although there was definitely some good R&D to come out of these, the Navy will be returning to purchasing additional Arleigh-Burke class destroyers because the Zulwalts are just too expensive. The bottom line, the Zumwalt is overall a failed project, and two battleships could have been upgraded and operated for many years for substantially less money.

2. The current Zumwalts we do have will basically be delegated to NSFS duties for now, which is exactly what the battleships did. And the exact same weaponry the Zumwalts will do it with can also be outfitted to an Iowa. See below.

3. A single battleship can provide more ordinance and destructive power at a fraction of the cost than an entire aircraft carrier's maximum sorty level, and four battleships can be operated for a fraction of the operating costs of a single carrier. The Navy claims that the battleships are prohibitively expensive to operate, and they definitely are more costly to operate than destroyers, but this statement is often misinterpreted. The operating costs of a battleship are very high if you consider that it only has one single role; NSFS. Otherwise they're just fear weapons (and believe me, the world fears the Iowa's). At least destroyers can be off doing other things while they're not doing that, but this idea that the Iowa's are massively costly to operate is overblown.

4. We have to be honest with ourselves, is rail gun technology actually going to make it to the battlefield? The idea is sound, but launching an object at Mach 10 is devastating to the barrel it's flying out of. This technology is still many years out imho before it'll be usable on a ship. Note, the battleships definitely CANNOT use rail guns, as they don't generate enough electrical power. The Zumwalts generate electricity in droves though.

Basically the bottom line is that we spent $22.5 billion dollars designing 3 ships that don't do the job as well as what they're replacing. Sound a lot like the F-35 project? It's similar, but not quite. We could have just spent $2-3 billion each on upgrading two battleships and had a much better platform for NSFS. I used to be very pro-Zumwalt, get rid of the dang ancients, but when it comes to the money and the very specialized role that the Iowa's do, it's hard to argue many billions in savings.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
The two arguments have their similarities, but they're not quite the same. The F-35 is supposed to be built in the thousands to replace an entire fleet of Air force, Marine Corp, and Navy aircraft. The battleship argument is about the US Navy's ability to provide Naval Surface Fire Support (NSFS), which is a much more specialized role. The 16" guns of the Iowa's are of their own class of firepower support that still cannot be matched by a cruiser or destroyer. Their destructive power is phenomenal, and their psychological effect on an enemy is simply unreal, and cannot be replicated by smaller caliber weaponry. You can't really describe it in words. Although their range is very short by today's warfare standards, advances in metallurgy, powder, and shell design could extend their 24 mile range to 50-100 miles or more with greater accuracy. On top of that, everyone talks about the 70 mile range of the AGS that'll be fitted onto the Zumwalts, but those guns can just as easily be outfitted to the Iowas too.

Arguments for keeping the battleships are as follows:

1. We spent $22.5 billion dollars designing and building three Zumwalt class destroyers. Although there was definitely some good R&D to come out of these, the Navy will be returning to purchasing additional Arleigh-Burke class destroyers because the Zulwalts are just too expensive. The bottom line, the Zumwalt is overall a failed project, and two battleships could have been upgraded and operated for many years for substantially less money.

2. The current Zumwalts we do have will basically be delegated to NSFS duties for now, which is exactly what the battleships did. And the exact same weaponry the Zumwalts will do it with can also be outfitted to an Iowa. See below.

3. A single battleship can provide more ordinance and destructive power at a fraction of the cost than an entire aircraft carrier's maximum sorty level, and four battleships can be operated for a fraction of the operating costs of a single carrier. The Navy claims that the battleships are prohibitively expensive to operate, and they definitely are more costly to operate than destroyers, but this statement is often misinterpreted. The operating costs of a battleship are very high if you consider that it only has one single role; NSFS. Otherwise they're just fear weapons (and believe me, the world fears the Iowa's). At least destroyers can be off doing other things while they're not doing that, but this idea that the Iowa's are massively costly to operate is overblown.

4. We have to be honest with ourselves, is rail gun technology actually going to make it to the battlefield? The idea is sound, but launching an object at Mach 10 is devastating to the barrel it's flying out of. This technology is still many years out imho before it'll be usable on a ship. Note, the battleships definitely CANNOT use rail guns, as they don't generate enough electrical power. The Zumwalts generate electricity in droves though.

Basically the bottom line is that we spent $22.5 billion dollars designing 3 ships that don't do the job as well as what they're replacing. Sound a lot like the F-35 project? It's similar, but not quite. We could have just spent $2-3 billion each on upgrading two battleships and had a much better platform for NSFS. I used to be very pro-Zumwalt, get rid of the dang ancients, but when it comes to the money and the very specialized role that the Iowa's do, it's hard to argue many billions in savings.

One thing to note is the old arguments that battleships have been obsolete since the 2nd World War because it is too vulnerable to aircraft. The battleship has never been exceptionally vulnerable to aircraft. The battleship is actually often less vulnerable on an individual ship basis than basically any other ship class that has existed in the navy. The battleship is also no more obsolete than any other class of ship. The only question is the cost for the value, where battleships, while very effective and powerful, are often considered just not worth the price of investment.
 
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Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
One thing to note is the old arguments that battleships have been obsolete since the 2nd World War because it is too vulnerable to aircraft. The battleship has never been exceptionally vulnerable to aircraft. The battleship is actually often less vulnerable on an individual ship basis than basically any other ship class that has existed in the navy. The battleship is also no more obsolete than any other class of ship. The only question is the cost for the value, where battleships, while very effective and powerful, are often considered just not worth the price of investment.

You're absolutely right. I think the solution we'll likely end up seeing is the AGS (Advanced Gun System - The one that can lob shells out 70 miles) being outfitted to the current destroyers/cruisers and the Navy will call it a day. If rail gun technology is perfected, then it'll be the 3 Zumwalts that deploy them. Unfortunately we can't really take the $22.5 billion back, so we might as well keep the Zumwalts.

The bigger issue as to what's going on is that the US Navy doesn't have the money to maintain the ship levels that it wants, and will inevitably require a reduction in surface vessels. Newer class ships are designed with lower operating costs in mind, and battleships just don't work well when you have a tight budget. Fantastic weapons, and in hindsight we probably should have just refitted them, but too late now.

In 20 years though, we may bring them back again. I hate war and conflict, but a naval showdown between the US and China unfortunately seems inevitable.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
You're absolutely right. I think the solution we'll likely end up seeing is the AGS (Advanced Gun System - The one that can lob shells out 70 miles) being outfitted to the current destroyers/cruisers and the Navy will call it a day. If rail gun technology is perfected, then it'll be the 3 Zumwalts that deploy them. Unfortunately we can't really take the $22.5 billion back, so we might as well keep the Zumwalts.

The bigger issue as to what's going on is that the US Navy doesn't have the money to maintain the ship levels that it wants, and will inevitably require a reduction in surface vessels. Newer class ships are designed with lower operating costs in mind, and battleships just don't work well when you have a tight budget. Fantastic weapons, and in hindsight we probably should have just refitted them, but too late now.

In 20 years though, we may bring them back again. I hate war and conflict, but a naval showdown between the US and China unfortunately seems inevitable.

"Inevitable"?, do you have any idea how much $$ we owe China?, they have been buying our debt for the last 15+ years, would you launch an attack against a foe who owes you trillions?, I doubt it.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
"Inevitable"?, do you have any idea how much $$ we owe China?, they have been buying our debt for the last 15+ years, would you launch an attack against a foe who owes you trillions?, I doubt it.

Do you have any idea what impact a war would have on them?

If I owe you 100,000,000, I have a problem, when I owe you 1,200,000,000,000, you have a problem.

They would be utterly crushed if we went to war with them. They'd have so much social unrest on their hands that they would 100% be overthrown.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
SA Forums has a couple of huge threads about what a turd the F-35 is, and I was reading those and got curious, so I started reading more about it, looking for arguments on both sides, including A2G and A2A discussion, discussion on all the Su-27 derivatives, the PAK-FA, the J-20, etc. My original impression had been that the F-35 was a turkey in the air, and relied on stealth to avoid A2A combat with more capable fighters like the Su's.

But now I have to say, I've changed my opinion. There are certainly many valid criticisms of the F-35 program, but when you think about the global strategic picture in the mid 21st century, I think the F-35 is exactly what's needed, and for their role I'm glad we have them over any other aircraft (including the F-22).

I want to just point out how enormously successful the last generation of American fighters were. The F-15's air to air record is a mind-boggling 105-0 or something like that. The F-16's is something like 93-13, and most of those losses belong to air forces without the quality of pilots the U.S. has. I don't think Israel or the United States have ever lost an F-16 in air to air combat. They are, simply, the greatest fighter planes ever built.

Now, if you imagine an F-35 in combat against an F-15 or F-16, it will almost certainly see it first and engage it before the other pilot even knows he's under attack. If the fight gets to visual range, the F-35 should have more altitude (stealth does not require low altitude flight for radar masking) and speed (F-35 cruises at a higher speed than F-15 or F-16). There's no reason to think that a pilot will superior energy and a capable airframe will lose that engagement.

Within the next decade, China is really going to try to assert its influence over the South China Sea and other strategic areas. The F-35 will play a major role in defending the sovereignty of American allies in the area.
 
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