The future looks like Nvidia's

[apoppin]

the author has put into words what i have felt since the r420 was announced . . . ati has been "coasting" since r300 while nVidia has been productive.

Strange, just over 2 years ago i would have said it was the other way round
(it was and i did)

 

[flexy]

i kind of read that article really fast...

But basically i agree with it and it reflects what i said already a lot of times...

Spending $699 (!), like one guy who just got his XT800PE, on a card with no SM3.0 capabilities ? Sorry.... no way.
The spending decision "$400 on either a X800Pro or 6800GT"..is, despites ALL reviews and bechmarks, NOT a easy one.

Yes, ATI missed out big time, and i can tell you that everyone @ ATI knows that...its not a secret R420 is merely an extended R350 core..they KNOW that. Its temporary. NV has the edge when it comes to features.

BUT..then on the other hand, NV40 is a totally new developed chip, and R420 is NOT....and STILL, the 'old' chip beats the new developed one in DX9 and options like Aniso/AF.

STILL - i dont think i can go down *that* low in my desperation for a new card and shell out $400 or more for old tech (which i know is only a temporay solution)....the R500 would be the card i actually want...not an 'enhanced' R420. (As someone who already owns a 9800 Pro...)


BTW..the big, big difference, and here it may be LUCK or 'coincedence' or NV marketing tactics...:

You all remember when the 8500 came out, the first card with PS1.4 ?

Ati was always good to introduce INTERESTING and new features - but, too bad, never ever (or seldom) a company jumped on the bandwaggon...TRUFORM ??? Anyoen remember ? Good idea - but it was the flop of the century how the few games who supported it implemented it.

PS1.4 ? Who gives a rat's a$$ - we make our games PS1.2/1.3 compatible because it has to run on NVIDIA cards (which did NOT have PS1.4) - i didnt see PS1.4 supporting games for a LOOONG time after ATi introduced it.

In comparison....NV40 comes out with PS3.0. Listen to the downplaying by ATI how unnecessary and slow SM3.0 is (LAUGH OUT LOUD)...but the important thing is, that we already had SM3.0 patches for games BEFORE the 6800 came out, and a lot more coming up NOW or in the very near future. NVIDIA has the support ATI never had/has.

Still..ATI should stop downplaying PS3.0, its a reality NOW. It gets ridiculous. They should rather make some facts giving us dates for the R500 (which i dont know when it will come out) ..and also all the fanboys should get REAL seeing how PS3.0 games coming out and PS2.0 is old tech and i do NOT want to spend a LOT of money on OLD tech.

It might be right that the NV40 only STARTED to shine and will fully shine once we have many, many more games out with SM3.0. The X800 is 'the old card' then - and, well, the R500 is still 'in the future'.

Dont tell me its EASY to buy this (graphics) hardware NOW - its absolutely NOT - despites the (funny) fact that BOTH cards are not even available or only a few which go for absolutely insane amounts of money.

 

[flexy]

Addendum to your poll:

I NEVER wanted a R420 - i wanted the R500

 

[flexy]

>>> WTF! What does he call R500??? I think the part that ATi debuts for XB2 will wipe the floor with NVDA's latestat that time. Or does this guy know something that Microsoft does not?

Ehrm...PS 4.0 ? Which (on the other hand) will incorporate 3.0, i guess....

I am, btw. also convinced that R500 will wipe the 6800s a$$, its already slower than the X800 under certain circumstances, and the faster one is even based on old tech. (See other posting). R500 would be VERY, VERY nice....too bad i dont even have an *remote* idea WHEN it will be there. If i would know we have R500 in december i would totally hold off my build and build my system a few months later.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: flexy
>>> WTF! What does he call R500??? I think the part that ATi debuts for XB2 will wipe the floor with NVDA's latestat that time. Or does this guy know something that Microsoft does not?

Ehrm...PS 4.0 ? Which (on the other hand) will incorporate 3.0, i guess....

I am, btw. also convinced that R500 will wipe the 6800s a$$, its already slower than the X800 under certain circumstances, and the faster one is even based on old tech. (See other posting). R500 would be VERY, VERY nice....too bad i dont even have an *remote* idea WHEN it will be there. If i would know we have R500 in december i would totally hold off my build and build my system a few months later.

r500?

1st H '05

expect it in about a year's time . . . about the same time nv50 is launched.

 

[flexy]

>>> expect it in about a year's time . . . about the same time nv50 is launched. [/quote]

probably can disregard that 6800 <> R500 comparison if NV50 comes out the same time as R500.

just hope i will get a nice price on my used 6800GT on ebay then

Btw. read that INQ article now again, slower, and , as said, totaly reflect my own thoughts and conclusions. Very nice article.
However, i am still not sure about the relevance of SLI..probably don't share the INQ enthusiasm about SLI - but an ADDITIONAL option is always better than none. Good for these who want to spend the money etc.
(Nforce4: Dual pci-e &amp;&amp; SLI == 1337 The chipset and the card(s) which fit right in

 

[apoppin]

here's all that is "known" on r500, currently

make plans . . it's expected to "have 10 times higher geometry and 4 times higher pixel performance compared to the RADEON X800 XT".
Launched in Q4-04 in the best case scenario... Supports DirectX 9.0c or 10 and Pixel and Vertex shaders 3.0 with 128 bit precision.

the X-Box 'next' GPU

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: apoppin
here's all that is "known" on r500, currently

make plans . . it's expected to "have 10 times higher geometry and 4 times higher pixel performance compared to the RADEON X800 XT".
Launched in Q4-04 in the best case scenario... Supports DirectX 9.0c or 10 and Pixel and Vertex shaders 3.0 with 128 bit precision.

the X-Box 'next' GPU

Q4-04? It would be humourous if the R500 cards reached widespread availability before the X800XT.

That said, I think it will be quite some time before R500 shows up. It depends on how desperate ATi beomes, I suppose. The R300 came as a complete surprise though, and I wouldn't doubt the R500 having a similar effect. The R420 was really a stop-gap reactionary move on the part of ATi; R500 was their "real" next-gen part from the start. They have been working on it since the R300 taped out.

I'm very excited about the next-gen cards and I'm hoping that they really destroy the current cards in terms of performance and capabilities. From those preliminary specs, they look very impressive. Hopefully my R300 can hold out until then.

 

[flexy]

Q4-04? It would be humourous if the R500 cards reached widespread availability before the X800XT.

That said, I think it will be quite some time before R500 shows up. It depends on how desperate ATi beomes, I suppose. The R300 came as a complete surprise though, and I wouldn't doubt the R500 having a similar effect.

you might be right - but i can very well ATI see getting desperate because many people buying a 6800 instead of a X800. I do not think that the X800 is a hot seller. I mean, even hardcore ATI fans at rage3d switching over to Nvidia right now.

As said, ATI knows they HAVE to deliver. The time for R500 should have been NOW - and they know that every day without THEIR SM3.0 part and with NV advantage and with more and more games supporting SM3.0 is their LOSS.

BUT - they would NOT do the big 'surprise' stunt by delivering a R500 in "one year from now" with only SM3.0 capabilities - ONE YEAR after NV introduced NV40 ? ANd then the same time NV comes out with NV50 ? Bad timing....they BETTER bring this card end of this year...

It would be worth to dig out this famous ATI leaked internal paper from a few months ago, i think they mentioned R500 there and DX10 ("DirectX Next") and PS4.0. (Which would be in accordance with the INQ: 'will not have a PS3.0 card - because it will have PS4.0' Thats also from what i "know".
Anyway...my point is that i see a really big urgency for them to conter with a REASONABLE new chip (and not R420)...they can only be competitive for "so long"...as for now they did a nice PR stunt with the HL2/X800 combination making the card look a bit better again...but other games will come out and they will have next gen engines and utilize PS3.0...and the comon understanding is that the 6800 will show its full potential THERE then.
I am also convinced that everyone at ATI knows and feels this urgency, if not then they have a problem....

Edit: And yes, see that dilemma ? They know they have to deliver R500 ASAP, but then on the other hand they also need to sell their X800 parts. If they'd [now] announce the availability of R500 end of this year.....they would hurt their own X800 sales, which are, (as you said), not even available Stupid position they're in right now.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: apoppin
here's all that is "known" on r500, currently

make plans . . it's expected to "have 10 times higher geometry and 4 times higher pixel performance compared to the RADEON X800 XT".
Launched in Q4-04 in the best case scenario... Supports DirectX 9.0c or 10 and Pixel and Vertex shaders 3.0 with 128 bit precision.

the X-Box 'next' GPU

Q4-04? It would be humourous if the R500 cards reached widespread availability before the X800XT.

That said, I think it will be quite some time before R500 shows up. It depends on how desperate ATi beomes, I suppose. The R300 came as a complete surprise though, and I wouldn't doubt the R500 having a similar effect. The R420 was really a stop-gap reactionary move on the part of ATi; R500 was their "real" next-gen part from the start. They have been working on it since the R300 taped out.

I'm very excited about the next-gen cards and I'm hoping that they really destroy the current cards in terms of performance and capabilities. From those preliminary specs, they look very impressive. Hopefully my R300 can hold out until then.

wow . . we get to "agree"



remember that r500 really IS the r400 project . . . they have been working on this for quite some time

actually i have a confession to make . . .

:Q

i was looking forward to r420 as being the next "big" jump (i knew about the 6800 as being pretty "revolutionary") and actually ordered an XT-PE . . . (3 times)

fortunately - as it may turn out - the xt-pe was UNavailable and i got a cheapo 9800xt (r360) to tide me over till MY next evolutionary LEAP . . . nForce4 sli-capable MB/(dual core) a-64(s) and an Nv50 (or 2-6800u's), SATA RAID . . . gotta dream

more likely, it'll be THIS old P4 rig @ 4Ghz and an AGP r500 (or i may finally get that xt/pe to wait for r600 . . . the next gen of games is due '06)

EDIT: Sorry flexy, but r480 is due first - around this year's end; with luck ati will implement shader 3.0 or else X-box next programmers are gonna have to use nVidia's chips.

maybe r500 will be 1stQ '05

:roll:

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: flexy

Q4-04? It would be humourous if the R500 cards reached widespread availability before the X800XT.

That said, I think it will be quite some time before R500 shows up. It depends on how desperate ATi beomes, I suppose. The R300 came as a complete surprise though, and I wouldn't doubt the R500 having a similar effect.

you might be right - but i can very well ATI see getting desperate because many people buying a 6800 instead of a X800. I do not think that the X800 is a hot seller. I mean, even hardcore ATI fans at rage3d switching over to Nvidia right now.

As said, ATI knows they HAVE to deliver. The time for R500 should have been NOW - and they know that every day without THEIR SM3.0 part and with NV advantage and with more and more games supporting SM3.0 is their LOSS.

BUT - they would NOT do the big 'surprise' stunt by delivering a R500 in "one year from now" with only SM3.0 capabilities - ONE YEAR after NV introduced NV40 ? ANd then the same time NV comes out with NV50 ? Bad timing....they BETTER bring this card end of this year...

It would be worth to dig out this famous ATI leaked internal paper from a few months ago, i think they mentioned R500 there and DX10 ("DirectX Next") and PS4.0. (Which would be in accordance with the INQ: 'will not have a PS3.0 card - because it will have PS4.0' Thats also from what i "know".
Anyway...my point is that i see a really big urgency for them to conter with a REASONABLE new chip (and not R420)...they can only be competitive for "so long"...as for now they did a nice PR stunt with the HL2/X800 combination making the card look a bit better again...but other games will come out and they will have next gen engines and utilize PS3.0...and the comon understanding is that the 6800 will show its full potential THERE then.
I am also convinced that everyone at ATI knows and feels this urgency, if not then they have a problem....

If ATi can't even mass produce 0.13um R420 cards, how in the world are they going to start pumping out 0.09um R500 ones? It makes no sense, and if they were to do that they would be basically abandonning the R420 architecture and sacrificing all of the R&amp;D money that went into the cards. I honestly can't see them being able to afford that. NV30 was a far worse failure than R420 is IMO, and it was never abandonned. Even the Matrox Parhelia is still being sold to this day.

I honestly think that people are overstating the advantage which the NV40 cards hold over the R420's. So they're faster in one game. Big deal. If you look at the big picture, the X800XT and the 6800U are very comparable. Far Cry is an extremely complex game and it runs faster on ATi hardware, even with a SM3 patch.

If I were to make an estimate, I would say that the R500 cards will come out a few months after the Xbox 2, depending on yields. It's pure speculation at this point though. I can't see it happening any time soon; AMD is still having problems mass-producing 0.09um CPUs which have less than half the transistor count of a graphics chip like the R500.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: apoppin
wow . . we get to "agree"

:Q:roll:

OMG teh emoticons!
:roll:

I have to agree with you now that you have 1337 status, apoppin.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: apoppin
wow . . we get to "agree"

:Q:roll:

OMG teh emoticons!
:roll:

I have to agree with you now that you have 1337 status, apoppin.

i've had it for quite awhile . . . however meaningless it may be (in my case).

:roll:

and i also agree (will wonders never cease?!) that r500 will be later than sooner . . . the next X-box might even get delayed. However, there is the possibility that MOST of ati's resources are tied up in the r500/xbox GPU with r420 a cheap "afterthought" to get through the period when nv40 is "ahead".

That was speculated upon endlessly when nVidia was working on the original X-box/GF3-4 GPU and ati showed up with r300/9700p.

Maybe is't the Microwsoft "Curse"

:roll:

and i am trying to "cut down" on emoticons . . .




. . .



yeah, right.

:roll:

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: apoppin
and i am trying to "cut down" on emoticons . . .

No, you shouldn't do that. It would be like Rollo suddenly becoming an ATi fanboy. The forums here just wouldn't be the same. :beer:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: apoppin
and i am trying to "cut down" on emoticons . . .

No, you shouldn't do that. It would be like Rollo suddenly becoming an ATi fanboy. The forums here just wouldn't be the same. :beer:

well i went from ati fanboy to ati detractor in a couple of months . . . anything's possible
(still . . . can't bring . . . myself . . . to praise . . . nVidia . . . yet)

 

[flexy]

I honestly think that people are overstating the advantage which the NV40 cards hold over the R420's. So they're faster in one game. Big deal. If you look at the big picture, the X800XT and the 6800U are very comparable. Far Cry is an extremely complex game and it runs faster on ATi hardware, even with a SM3 patch.

absolutely.

I never said this decision(which card) is easy..its more like you can freely interchange both cards and get ANY of the two and think you miss out on a feature the OTHER card has...this makes it so tricky.

Even more...we're dealing with two main game engines (D3/HL2) and each of these is specifically optimized FOR one brand of hardware - instead of giving an unbiased VIEW for comparison it does exactly NOT help with THAT.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: flexy

I honestly think that people are overstating the advantage which the NV40 cards hold over the R420's. So they're faster in one game. Big deal. If you look at the big picture, the X800XT and the 6800U are very comparable. Far Cry is an extremely complex game and it runs faster on ATi hardware, even with a SM3 patch.

apoppin,

just to doublecheck..i just googled 'farcry benchmarks' and the first site which came up was tom's. So..anyway i lookrd at the 6800GT and 800Pro (the two cards i consider reasonable priced and interesting for me) - and the two cards are on par in FarCry (4xAA, 4xAF) using Shaderpath 2.0, and with Farcry Patch 1.2, using SM3.0 the GT is *considerably* faster than the Pro....i will have to look at other FarCry benches....but as said the first comparison i saw over at Tom did NOT confirm what you said

Edit: double checked (xbitlabs etc.)...yeah..still stand with my statement as long as it concerns X800Pro and 6800GT - However, the X800XT is FASTEST....but i guess this card is well over my budget

Edit2: i didnt know that there is such a enormous performance delta between 800Pro and XT..was the Pro 12 pipes and the XT 16 ? otherwise with plain mhz this is impossible to explain

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: flexy


apoppin,

just to doublecheck..i just googled 'farcry benchmarks' and the first site which came up was tom's. So..anyway i lookrd at the 6800GT and 800Pro . . . . but as said the first comparison i saw over at Tom did NOT confirm what you said

huh?

Whoa . . .

HOLD the phone!!!

What DID i say that you are disputing?

 

[Drakino]

The Doom 3 engine has one announced licnese: Quake 4 being done by Raven
The Source engine has one announced license: Vampire: Bloodlines by Troika

Who are we missing here?

The Unreal 2.5 and 3 engines. We have no clue who is licensing these, but looking at developer relations, my money is on more games using these engines. We just have to wait to see what card does better.

That, and the key point of the articke that seems to be overlooked, we are likely to see NV50 and R500 stuff by the time it really matters. Sure, Doom 3 slaughters many existing systems, but it will not be a game that lives on as much as Quake 3 did. It's a single player game. Half Life 2, another hard one on hardware, but likely to spawn more multiplayer mods beyond the ones Valve is making. I'll buy an upgrade based on HL2 numbers for the next year or so.

The PS 3.0 stuff, yeah it sucks that ATI lacks it, but it didn't hurt 3dfx a ton when they didn't come out with 32 bit color support as early as NVidia. Though their lack of support for it later did hurt.

 

[Yanagi]

Agreed. Their lack for support later on did hurt them bigtime. However I dont thinkt he lack of PS 3.0 will hurt ATi as much as as it did hurt 3DFX in the past. As for DX10.. i thought DX 10 was suppposed to ship along with longhorn and no sooner. If thats the case no next gen card will support DX10 features fully.

 

[Drakino]

ATI shipped the Radeon 9700 Pro fully supporting DX 9 before DX 9 was out. So it's very possible for a video card to support a non shipping standard.

Next true generation is a ways away though. It took 1.5 years this past time to hit the next generation. I'm not expecting that to get shorter.

 

[Zebo]

I dunno, read the x800xt reviews from any site, no need to read the whole review, I never do, just the conclusions, which says Ati won, every one of them. They came out a month after the 6800 review so it was in there. Unless something changed since then, I tend to believe these guys who do reviewing for a living than Charlie "Mr. Anonymous" Demerjian.


With that said the GT is my next card, when I find one @325 made by BFG, Abit or Asus. It not crippled like 800pro, beats the pro, and it's price to performance ratio is exactly in-line with other budget cards (9800pro/5900xt) at that price point. Add in overclocking and you have an x800xt/6800ultra for signifigantly less. I never buy the "boutique" or "emotional" top-end hardware, I get there and past for less, GT does this, pro won't.

 

[ronnn]

I hope this is true, because last I looked Nvidia was taking a beating on the stock exchange. Two successful companies is better than one. So as long as Nvidia can flog the 6800gt and make a profit, so much the better.

 

[flexy]

What DID i say that you are disputing?

your sentence:
"
Far Cry is an extremely complex game and it runs faster on ATi hardware, even with a SM3 patch.
"

Ok...you are RIGHT so far that the 800XT owns all other cards - but a comparison Corolla <--> ferrari F50 doesn't make a lot of sense either.

The first thinbg i did was looking at the benchies 4xAF and 8xAF (everything else is not interesting) and the two cards in the same price segment, NOT the ultra high-end cards

So i looked at the 6800GT and the 800Pro, and the 6800GT is MUCh faster than the Ati card.

Dont get me wrong, i dont post that to flame....i just looked at the comparable cards !

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I found the author of the article extremly unknowledgeable and biased. This is a horrible combination in computer journalism.

Agreed. Lousy article all around. Even though I agree with the sentiment.

Discounting the HL2 engine was the dumbest non-technical part of the article. I, like so many others, will play 20X more CS:S than all other games combined over the next few years. A new game with the D3 engine may come out and be incredible....but we're all gonna be back playing CS:S.

Still, the 6800GT was a LOT closer to the X800Pro in HL2 than I thought it was going to be. I think ATI needed more of a lead because NVidia WILL close that gap in short order as they always do.