The Guns Of August

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Here's some insight from America's former UN Ambassador, Richard Holbrooke, on what bush's foolish and failed Middle East policies are really risking.

I disagree with Holbrooke's assessment regarding Israel because I believe one of the main problems with America's Middle East policy is our incessant and embarassing kowtowing to Israel's every whim and fancy. If the U.S. began treating the actors in the Middle East fairly and stopped this ridiculous brinksmanship by refusing to even TALK with entire nations the situation in the Middle East just might have a chance to improve.

But Holbrooke addresses more than the Middle East in this piece. The Asian sub-continent and Africa are also incluced in a mix that could very well lead to a chain reaction just like the one that triggered WWI.

And here we are stuck with a fool in the White House who refuses to negotiate with anyone he deems "terrorists" and is instead relying on what Holbrooke describes as "a muddled version of Wilsonianism".

The Guns Of August

By Richard Holbrooke
Thursday, August 10, 2006; Page A23

Two full-blown crises, in Lebanon and Iraq, are merging into a single emergency. A chain reaction could spread quickly almost anywhere between Cairo and Bombay. Turkey is talking openly of invading northern Iraq to deal with Kurdish terrorists based there. Syria could easily get pulled into the war in southern Lebanon. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are under pressure from jihadists to support Hezbollah, even though the governments in Cairo and Riyadh hate that organization. Afghanistan accuses Pakistan of giving shelter to al-Qaeda and the Taliban; there is constant fighting on both sides of that border. NATO's own war in Afghanistan is not going well. India talks of taking punitive action against Pakistan for allegedly being behind the Bombay bombings. Uzbekistan is a repressive dictatorship with a growing Islamic resistance.

The only beneficiaries of this chaos are Iran, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and the Iraqi Shiite leader Moqtada al-Sadr, who last week held the largest anti-American, anti-Israel demonstration in the world in the very heart of Baghdad, even as 6,000 additional U.S. troops were rushing into the city to "prevent" a civil war that has already begun.

This combination of combustible elements poses the greatest threat to global stability since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis,
history's only nuclear superpower confrontation. The Cuba crisis, although immensely dangerous, was comparatively simple: It came down to two leaders and no war. In 13 days of brilliant diplomacy, John F. Kennedy induced Nikita Khrushchev to remove Soviet missiles from Cuba.

Kennedy was deeply influenced by Barbara Tuchman's classic, "The Guns of August," which recounted how a seemingly isolated event 92 summers ago -- an assassination in Sarajevo by a Serb terrorist -- set off a chain reaction that led in just a few weeks to World War I. There are vast differences between that August and this one. But Tuchman ended her book with a sentence that resonates in this summer of crisis: "The nations were caught in a trap, a trap made during the first thirty days out of battles that failed to be decisive, a trap from which there was, and has been, no exit."

Preventing just such a trap must be the highest priority of American policy. Unfortunately, there is little public sign that the president and his top advisers recognize how close we are to a chain reaction, or that they have any larger strategy beyond tactical actions.


Under the universally accepted doctrine of self-defense, which is embodied in Article 51 of the U.N. Charter, there is no question that Israel has a legitimate right to take action against a group that has sworn to destroy it and had hidden some 13,000 missiles in southern Lebanon. In these circumstances, American support for Israel is essential, as it has been since the time of Truman; if Washington abandoned Jerusalem, the very existence of the Jewish state could be jeopardized, and the world crisis whose early phase we are now in would quickly get far worse. The United States must continue to make clear that it is ready to come to Israel's defense, both with American diplomacy and, as necessary, with military equipment.

But the United States must also understand, and deal with, the wider consequences of its own actions and public statements, which have caused an unprecedented decline in America's position in much of the world and are provoking dangerous new anti-American coalitions and encouraging a new generation of terrorists. American disengagement from active Middle East diplomacy since 2001 has led to greater violence and a decline in U.S. influence. Others have been eager to fill the vacuum. (Note the sudden emergence of France as a key player in the current burst of diplomacy.)

American policy has had the unintended, but entirely predictable, effect of pushing our enemies closer together. Throughout the region, Sunnis and Shiites have put aside their hatred of each other just long enough to join in shaking their fists -- or doing worse -- at the United States and Israel. Meanwhile, in Baghdad, our troops are coming under attack by both sides -- Shiite militias and Sunni insurgents. If this continues, the U.S. presence in Baghdad has no future.

President Bush owes it to the nation, and especially the troops who risk their lives every day, to reexamine his policies.
For starters, he should redeploy some U.S. troops into the safer northern areas of Iraq to serve as a buffer between the increasingly agitated Turks and the restive, independence-minded Kurds. Given the new situation, such a redeployment to Kurdish areas and a phased drawdown elsewhere -- with no final decision yet as to a full withdrawal from Iraq -- is fully justified. At the same time, we should send more troops to Afghanistan, where the situation has deteriorated even as the Pentagon is reducing U.S. troop levels -- which is read in the region as a sign of declining U.S. interest in Afghanistan.

On the diplomatic front, the United States cannot abandon the field to other nations (not even France!) or the United Nations. Every secretary of state from Henry Kissinger to Warren Christopher and Madeleine Albright negotiated with Syria, including those Republican icons George Shultz and James Baker. Why won't this administration follow suit, in full consultation with Israel at every step? This would clearly be in Israel's interest. Instead, administration officials refuse direct talks and say publicly, "Syria knows what it must do" -- a statement that denies the very point of diplomacy.

The same is true of talks with Iran, although these would be more difficult. Why has the world's leading nation stood aside for over five years and allowed the international dialogue with Tehran to be conducted by Europeans, the Chinese and the United Nations? And why has that dialogue been restricted to the nuclear issue -- vitally important, to be sure, but not as urgent at this moment as Iran's sponsorship and arming of Hezbollah and its support of actions against U.S. forces in Iraq?


Containing the violence must be Washington's first priority. Finding a stable and secure solution that protects Israel must follow. Then must come the unwinding of America's disastrous entanglement in Iraq in a manner that is not a complete humiliation and does not lead to even greater turmoil. All of this will take sustained high-level diplomacy -- precisely what the American administration has avoided in the Middle East. Washington has, or at least used to have, leverage over the more moderate Arab states; it should use it again, in the closest consultation with and on behalf of Israel.

And we must be ready for unexpected problems that will test us; they could come in Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Jordan or even Somalia -- but one thing seems sure: They will come. Without a new, comprehensive strategy based on our most urgent national security needs -- as opposed to a muddled version of Wilsonianism -- this crisis is almost certain to worsen and spread.


Richard Holbrooke, a former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, writes a monthly column for The Post.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
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Didn't the Iranians invent chess? How good at chess are Americans?

If I were in the game I would announce that my intention, if I win, is to use the oil wealth of the area to better the lives of the people, that it will be used for schools and infrastructure, water and housing and job creation, mosques and parks, etc, things that reflect the glory and mercy of Allah. I would state as my goal the overthrow of every government there that does not provide for the will of the people. I would ask them to tell me what they want and I would see to some way where real honest news of the people's wishes get to be heard by us and all people and then I would begin to act on it obtaining, first, advise from the same people on how to proceed. But I would also want to do the same thing here. I would insist that all lobbying of Congress take place in cession before the house and the senate and that those lobbies be drawn at random from all over the nation. Let congress address what the population of the country wants instead of small but powerful interests. No bills will be passes that do not show up on the radar of national interest.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Didn't the Iranians invent chess? How good at chess are Americans?

If I were in the game I would announce that my intention, if I win, is to use the oil wealth of the area to better the lives of the people, that it will be used for schools and infrastructure, water and housing and job creation, mosques and parks, etc, things that reflect the glory and mercy of Allah. I would state as my goal the overthrow of every government there that does not provide for the will of the people.

Aren't these the intentions bush stated for Iraq after he couldn't find any of that wmd?

I would ask them to tell me what they want and I would see to some way where real honest news of the people's wishes get to be heard by us and all people and then I would begin to act on it obtaining, first, advise from the same people on how to proceed. But I would also want to do the same thing here. I would insist that all lobbying of Congress take place in cession before the house and the senate and that those lobbies be drawn at random from all over the nation. Let congress address what the population of the country wants instead of small but powerful interests. No bills will be passes that do not show up on the radar of national interest.

There was an opportunity recently to address some of these issues -- the Abramoff scandal -- but nothing happened. It just seemed to somehow drop from the news and the "ethics" bill that was passed to "reform" lobbying did nothing of the kind. But that's not in the news either.

The USA under bush has lost all credibility and diplomatic connections. Our current government doesn't even have the ability to talk over problems with other nations. They just use the "terrorist" label as an excuse to abandon diplomacy and we're witnessing the results of that myopic stance.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Didn't the Iranians invent chess? How good at chess are Americans?

If I were in the game I would announce that my intention, if I win, is to use the oil wealth of the area to better the lives of the people, that it will be used for schools and infrastructure, water and housing and job creation, mosques and parks, etc, things that reflect the glory and mercy of Allah. I would state as my goal the overthrow of every government there that does not provide for the will of the people.

Aren't these the intentions bush stated for Iraq after he couldn't find any of that wmd?

I would ask them to tell me what they want and I would see to some way where real honest news of the people's wishes get to be heard by us and all people and then I would begin to act on it obtaining, first, advise from the same people on how to proceed. But I would also want to do the same thing here. I would insist that all lobbying of Congress take place in cession before the house and the senate and that those lobbies be drawn at random from all over the nation. Let congress address what the population of the country wants instead of small but powerful interests. No bills will be passes that do not show up on the radar of national interest.

There was an opportunity recently to address some of these issues -- the Abramoff scandal -- but nothing happened. It just seemed to somehow drop from the news and the "ethics" bill that was passed to "reform" lobbying did nothing of the kind. But that's not in the news either.

The USA under bush has lost all credibility and diplomatic connections. Our current government doesn't even have the ability to talk over problems with other nations. They just use the "terrorist" label as an excuse to abandon diplomacy and we're witnessing the results of that myopic stance.

I agree even to having similar frustration. Where I may differ some is in how much I feel that frustration is justified or of any real importance or meaning. How do you cure myopia, is what I see as the question. I believe that people believe what they believe according to the depth to which they are conscious of what motivates them to believe as they believe, so the question to me is how do you make people more conscious when only their will to be more conscious will succeed, and that with great difficulty. Calling people sheep, for example, may be all well and true, but in some ways, because they are sheep because they feel too bad about themselves to ever consider the dangerous proposition of becoming a black sheep or a wolf, calling them pejorative names like sheep only makes them flock harder, no?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Moonbeam,
Your Thesis is honorable but we are not honorable people. They (Iraq, Iran and the rest) refer to us as the 'Great Satan'. They, therefore, cannot accept anything we say as anything but the voice of Satan trying to deceive. It is quite easy for the religious leaders to pronounce USA is Satan because we have shown all in the area by our actions that we are.
The horse we are trying to lead to the water is convinced that the well is poisoned. They are not interested in Earthly treasure .. it is heaven they seek. This place is the hell they have to endure for the while.
For that to change the religious leaders would have to admit they were wrong for all these years and that won't happen.
In this game stalemate is the best we can hope for but even that is a stretch cuz they are the pawns we've moved to indefensible positions..
The culture of the ME is such that once they proclaim another as evil.. it must stay evil forever... anything regarding them is evil doing at best good but with evil motive... you see... they believe Good will do good and only do evil with good motive.. and Evil will only do evil and only do good with evil motive.. The house divided against itself cannot stand.. Good is Good and Evil is Evil..

Let us get our evil butts out of the area and let them rejoice in their own way the Victory of Allah over the Western Satan..
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
As a chess player----I posed the following question on a chess forum a year ago----if GWB were a chess player---could he see even one move ahead?

As he plays naive Pollyanna international reformer on a larger world stage---he is clearly out thought by other lesser nations and terrorists---as his world vision begins to look like the aftermath of Hurricaine Katrina--- few fools are left still survailing the scene and are able to say with a straight face---you are doing a hecka of job Bushiewushie.

Since the opening theme of this thread is the game of chess----the issue in chess is not the will to win---its having the tactics that will win regardless of what your opponent does.
When we look at the track record of Bush in that light----------who can say the man is anything but a total idiot?

Espepecially when you look at the dominant position and the moral highground the USA had six years ago.----the strategy of GWB looks eactly like glaring incompetence in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
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I liked the analogy to chess I saw recently - a good chess player sets up the board so his opponent can only make bad moves.

This is what we are driving towards, no matter how honorable the intentions. Iran is playing us, and we're biting, not because we're stupid now, but because that's the only choice left to us.

That is, unless we want to overturn the board and use our nukes
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Now there is a brillant chess strategy Aisengard---making losing moves---and then at the last moment before checkmate---we are forced to pull out our gun and muder our opponent.
In a normal civilian chess tournament--such a player would be arrested by civilian authorties---and spend the rest of their life in jail if they are not executed.

On the international stage---it would be called MAD----and not for the anger aspect of being outplayed.

But because it would result in MUTUAL ASSURED DESTRUCTION as other nuclear nations would then have no choice but to direct their nukes at us.

So I ask you Aisengard------have you totally lost your mind???----and can you see one move ahead?----the fact that your thinking might be the thinking of GWB just makes a compelling argument to impeach the guy as quickly as possible.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Chess... hehehehehhehehehehhe

This particular game started with pieces I've never seen before. The pieces don't follow the rules of the game either.. Strategy requires that the moves of the opponent are known in terms of capability... What pawn can move in the manner of the knight or sit adjacent and explode?!

We just don't have a clue about what the Iraqi folks will do.

What Bush assumed the citizen at large would do they didn't. They stayed in line with what their culture for centuries has done... To them the Freedom we sought to bring (assuming that was our objective) was or is nothing compatible with their religion and it is their religion that gets them to heaven... not the freedom to have a coffee in downtown Baghdad..
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To Lunar Ray,

You are right---this is not exactly a chess game---and no one plays by the rules----but its still clear that it is a game of stategy---and our fearless leader is really blowing it.

With an apology to Aisengard---didn't notice the wink---but my comment about it being what George will likely do scares the hell out of me.

GWB is playing with powerful forces he does not understand and all hell can break out if something goes wrong---just as George was on vacation many days after Katrina hit is just a peek at the future---in light of recent news on how close Iraq is to a civil war that could take the whole Mid-East with it---Georgie still acts like its business as usual.

Meanwhile the American people are in the same deep denial---thinking the loss of Lieberman is an answer.---while the Repubs toss out their moderates in Michigan.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
Chess... hehehehehhehehehehhe

This particular game started with pieces I've never seen before. The pieces don't follow the rules of the game either.. Strategy requires that the moves of the opponent are known in terms of capability... What pawn can move in the manner of the knight or sit adjacent and explode?!

We just don't have a clue about what the Iraqi folks will do.

What Bush assumed the citizen at large would do they didn't. They stayed in line with what their culture for centuries has done... To them the Freedom we sought to bring (assuming that was our objective) was or is nothing compatible with their religion and it is their religion that gets them to heaven... not the freedom to have a coffee in downtown Baghdad..

I do not buy your assertion that these folks are playing for Heaven. It is natural for a chimp to want to live and have a banana in the shade of tall buildings. I think anybody who thinks takes this for immutable fact may have felt the results of somebody's clever chess move. Certainly this doctrine can be challenged and other points of view expressed especially by those who may have a different take on Islam. We can broadcast night and day how the devil is loose and wants you to strap on a bomb because any sane person knows that is a real devil. Remind those to whom such suggestions are made to ask for a demonstration. You want me to blow myself up. Fine, you first. We just don't seem to have the brains to engage in this sick game.

Also we can accommodate all takes in this game. If they want to sacrifice their pieces we can take them as many as are offered. We can lay down the rules on the ground and remove non cooperative pieces.

But we need to replace the goof calling our moves and try him for this illegal criminal war.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
WWIII is already in full swing: China/Russia/Middle East Vs Israel/U.S.
Highly doubtful...Russia's military is in such a state of decline, that it couldn't force project to any regional conflicts outside of its own immediate sphere...as for China, they have far more to lose in an armed conflict with America, given the economic ties between our two nations...and even China lacks the resources to project its forces very far...they couldn't even take Taiwan if they wanted to.



 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam,
Your Thesis is honorable but we are not honorable people. They (Iraq, Iran and the rest) refer to us as the 'Great Satan'. They, therefore, cannot accept anything we say as anything but the voice of Satan trying to deceive. It is quite easy for the religious leaders to pronounce USA is Satan because we have shown all in the area by our actions that we are.
The horse we are trying to lead to the water is convinced that the well is poisoned. They are not interested in Earthly treasure .. it is heaven they seek. This place is the hell they have to endure for the while.
For that to change the religious leaders would have to admit they were wrong for all these years and that won't happen.
In this game stalemate is the best we can hope for but even that is a stretch cuz they are the pawns we've moved to indefensible positions..
The culture of the ME is such that once they proclaim another as evil.. it must stay evil forever... anything regarding them is evil doing at best good but with evil motive... you see... they believe Good will do good and only do evil with good motive.. and Evil will only do evil and only do good with evil motive.. The house divided against itself cannot stand.. Good is Good and Evil is Evil..

Let us get our evil butts out of the area and let them rejoice in their own way the Victory of Allah over the Western Satan..

The impression of ME you subscribe to is based on the actions and opinions of a few. You cannot tar the whole population with the same brush. In large part the average joe (or Moh'd) in the ME wants the same as us - a better life for himself and his family. It is a minority, albeit a vociferous and forceful one, who genuinely believe the west to be satan and want to actively destroy it.

Diplomacy at the end of gun is always going to produce an illogical, emotional and violent response. What the US has never tried is a policy of engagement. While we may not win any of the extreme elements, over time we may be able to make peace with a majority. At this stage that is best we can hope for.

 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,674
7,170
136
Didn't the Iranians invent chess? How good at chess are Americans?
the chess game bush wants to play is a game that is supposed to be played out according to his own rules, his own timetable, his own agenda, with all the chess pieces on both sides of the board bent to his will through arrogance and the military might at his disposal, on a chess board designed by him and used only by him.

thus, bush's chess board is mounted on a round, spinning turntable with seating only for one and with all the chess pieces and board squares the same color. he gets to move any piece any way he wants and he never loses his turn. simple enough.

there is no finesse or cleverness in his game plan. so far, all that he's shown is his willingness to use just three skills: the guile of a chronic liar, his reliance on brute force and an ability to fully exploit an open-ended line of credit.

*edit* - grammar



 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
WWIII is already in full swing: China/Russia/Middle East Vs Israel/U.S.
as for China, they have far more to lose in an armed conflict with America, given the economic ties between our two nations...and even China lacks the resources to project its forces very far...they couldn't even take Taiwan if they wanted to.

The question you need to be asking yourself...at what point of ignition does a giant V12 engine no longer require it's small electric starter motor? Methinks that day for China is measured in an increasingly smaller number of years...

Future Shock
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,224
0
0
All that matters is the 14 US firebases that guard the oil fields in Iraq. "The American way of life in not negotiable." This is the premise of every 'chess move' this administration has made.

The GWB admin does not give a fook about anything besides the oil interests (90% of all our oil comes from the middle east) in the area. Syria will never become an enemy of the U.S. the high level oil connections between the two contries are much to valuable for both.

Rogo

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam,
Your Thesis is honorable but we are not honorable people. They (Iraq, Iran and the rest) refer to us as the 'Great Satan'. They, therefore, cannot accept anything we say as anything but the voice of Satan trying to deceive. It is quite easy for the religious leaders to pronounce USA is Satan because we have shown all in the area by our actions that we are.
The horse we are trying to lead to the water is convinced that the well is poisoned. They are not interested in Earthly treasure .. it is heaven they seek. This place is the hell they have to endure for the while.
For that to change the religious leaders would have to admit they were wrong for all these years and that won't happen.
In this game stalemate is the best we can hope for but even that is a stretch cuz they are the pawns we've moved to indefensible positions..
The culture of the ME is such that once they proclaim another as evil.. it must stay evil forever... anything regarding them is evil doing at best good but with evil motive... you see... they believe Good will do good and only do evil with good motive.. and Evil will only do evil and only do good with evil motive.. The house divided against itself cannot stand.. Good is Good and Evil is Evil..

Let us get our evil butts out of the area and let them rejoice in their own way the Victory of Allah over the Western Satan..

The impression of ME you subscribe to is based on the actions and opinions of a few. You cannot tar the whole population with the same brush. In large part the average joe (or Moh'd) in the ME wants the same as us - a better life for himself and his family. It is a minority, albeit a vociferous and forceful one, who genuinely believe the west to be satan and want to actively destroy it.

Diplomacy at the end of gun is always going to produce an illogical, emotional and violent response. What the US has never tried is a policy of engagement. While we may not win any of the extreme elements, over time we may be able to make peace with a majority. At this stage that is best we can hope for.

But it does matter which of you is right. I have an opinion but don't know for sure. I just don't know how to really find out. Wish I could read Arabic and comprehended the culture well.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
WWIII is already in full swing: China/Russia/Middle East Vs Israel/U.S.
Highly doubtful...Russia's military is in such a state of decline, that it couldn't force project to any regional conflicts outside of its own immediate sphere...as for China, they have far more to lose in an armed conflict with America, given the economic ties between our two nations...and even China lacks the resources to project its forces very far...they couldn't even take Taiwan if they wanted to.

Yeah, isn't most of our national debt owed to China and Chinese buisinesses?A war with them would wipe that clean, or it could be used as a huge bargaining chip.

I think America's still on top...as long as we have a new Administration not headed by a guy named Bush in January 2009.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
All that matters is the 14 US firebases that guard the oil fields in Iraq. "The American way of life in not negotiable." This is the premise of every 'chess move' this administration has made.

The GWB admin does not give a fook about anything besides the oil interests (90% of all our oil comes from the middle east) in the area. Syria will never become an enemy of the U.S. the high level oil connections between the two contries are much to valuable for both.

Rogo

Before you come to debates and post, step back and think to yourself.

Will anyone smell my bs I am posting?

The answer is yes...

That sure is 90% isn't it?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Lunar Ray,

You are right---this is not exactly a chess game---and no one plays by the rules----but its still clear that it is a game of stategy---and our fearless leader is really blowing it.

With an apology to Aisengard---didn't notice the wink---but my comment about it being what George will likely do scares the hell out of me.

GWB is playing with powerful forces he does not understand and all hell can break out if something goes wrong---just as George was on vacation many days after Katrina hit is just a peek at the future---in light of recent news on how close Iraq is to a civil war that could take the whole Mid-East with it---Georgie still acts like its business as usual.

Meanwhile the American people are in the same deep denial---thinking the loss of Lieberman is an answer.---while the Repubs toss out their moderates in Michigan.

I'm not sure Bush or anyone CAN do anything at this stage.. seems everything one would try in the face of civil unrest would just add fuel to the fire. I suppose a full blown escalation might have some beneficial effect... but could you imagine the Congress Elephant side if that were to happen... they'd know their once protected seats could be had by Goofy... I think what does occur in the next months will be what ever best secures the seats in Congress.. That is the game ... without Congress Bush is in deep do do..

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Chess... hehehehehhehehehehhe

This particular game started with pieces I've never seen before. The pieces don't follow the rules of the game either.. Strategy requires that the moves of the opponent are known in terms of capability... What pawn can move in the manner of the knight or sit adjacent and explode?!

We just don't have a clue about what the Iraqi folks will do.

What Bush assumed the citizen at large would do they didn't. They stayed in line with what their culture for centuries has done... To them the Freedom we sought to bring (assuming that was our objective) was or is nothing compatible with their religion and it is their religion that gets them to heaven... not the freedom to have a coffee in downtown Baghdad..

I do not buy your assertion that these folks are playing for Heaven. It is natural for a chimp to want to live and have a banana in the shade of tall buildings. I think anybody who thinks takes this for immutable fact may have felt the results of somebody's clever chess move. Certainly this doctrine can be challenged and other points of view expressed especially by those who may have a different take on Islam. We can broadcast night and day how the devil is loose and wants you to strap on a bomb because any sane person knows that is a real devil. Remind those to whom such suggestions are made to ask for a demonstration. You want me to blow myself up. Fine, you first. We just don't seem to have the brains to engage in this sick game.

Also we can accommodate all takes in this game. If they want to sacrifice their pieces we can take them as many as are offered. We can lay down the rules on the ground and remove non cooperative pieces.

But we need to replace the goof calling our moves and try him for this illegal criminal war.


Well.... we can look to the far right of the folks in the good ole US of A... the Religious right.. and tell me if they are chimps or folks doing everything and anything to push their particular brand of religion on the rest of us in this here FREE nation of ours.. Not a dingle dang thing you can do to tell them they are a bit loony (if they are) ... and how much more 'devoted' are the folks in Islamic nations when it comes to God.. Allah.. ?
Tell me.. do you think the Catholics or the Baptist is gonna change the way they think.. the devoted ones... cuz Moonbeam has said so... or more analogous.. if the Gay Pride Movement marched into their towns and shaking their booty told them to repent and love one another... the day is upon us... what would they do?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam,
Your Thesis is honorable but we are not honorable people. They (Iraq, Iran and the rest) refer to us as the 'Great Satan'. They, therefore, cannot accept anything we say as anything but the voice of Satan trying to deceive. It is quite easy for the religious leaders to pronounce USA is Satan because we have shown all in the area by our actions that we are.
The horse we are trying to lead to the water is convinced that the well is poisoned. They are not interested in Earthly treasure .. it is heaven they seek. This place is the hell they have to endure for the while.
For that to change the religious leaders would have to admit they were wrong for all these years and that won't happen.
In this game stalemate is the best we can hope for but even that is a stretch cuz they are the pawns we've moved to indefensible positions..
The culture of the ME is such that once they proclaim another as evil.. it must stay evil forever... anything regarding them is evil doing at best good but with evil motive... you see... they believe Good will do good and only do evil with good motive.. and Evil will only do evil and only do good with evil motive.. The house divided against itself cannot stand.. Good is Good and Evil is Evil..

Let us get our evil butts out of the area and let them rejoice in their own way the Victory of Allah over the Western Satan..

The impression of ME you subscribe to is based on the actions and opinions of a few. You cannot tar the whole population with the same brush. In large part the average joe (or Moh'd) in the ME wants the same as us - a better life for himself and his family. It is a minority, albeit a vociferous and forceful one, who genuinely believe the west to be satan and want to actively destroy it.

Diplomacy at the end of gun is always going to produce an illogical, emotional and violent response. What the US has never tried is a policy of engagement. While we may not win any of the extreme elements, over time we may be able to make peace with a majority. At this stage that is best we can hope for.

You perhaps have more insight than I on the matter... I look and simply appy the 'Duck Test'... and perhaps equally as helpful to me.. 'res ipsa loquitur' ..
I don't know what is in the mind of the average Joe but I seem to be able to see what it is they are doing..
They are like many just sitting back and taking their camel a walk while the activist among them plays the flute... It is the same every where..
My only real life experience with folks alot different than I showed me that peasants will simply be peasants and follow the activist kin folks out of fear or love.. but follow is what they do..

 
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