The "How did we get here Thread"

[Juice Box]

I know this is a topic not for those who believe strongly in a god, which i do not, but I have always wondered what people like you (intelligent people) have felt about how we as humans have gotten here, and why we are here. I sometimes find myself wondering, and i know deep down there is no way an invisible man is controlling us, and has a plan, but i really want to know how we got here and what we are meant to do. so please share your thoughts.

 

[imported_Nail]

How could science have caused us to be here? Isn't that a creation of man?

 

[Dinominant]

What's wrong with that? It is very posable that one thing led to the next and that eventually created us. But it is also very posable that everything just spontaneously created itself three seconds ago. It is also very posable that both are true.

To find out, you'd have to think philosophically and start at the beginning (nothing exists at all), and logically and chronologically put things together until you hit a point where the hypothetical reality you created is recognizable.

This is a subject I enjoy.

 

[TitanDiddly]

For a basic argument: The third(?) law of thermodynamics states that matter is in a constant state of decomposition, order to chaos, etc. An outside energy force is required to go the other way, which there isn't. People I've argued this with try to tell me lightning, or more specifically the passing of positive and negative charges, is an outside force, and that's how we came to be. Lightning didn't create the universe, there's nothing anybody has ever seen or can realistically theorize that would support that 'lightning' was able to form to cosmos.

From all this, and more that I won't bore you with, I beleive that God created everything. My family is something of a medical family (father owns surgical instrument business, brothers in college for medicine) I've become familiar with the utter compexity of the human body. Looking at it, it is the ultimate in complexity. I don't beleive that that kind of order came from a dense spinning mass of subatomic particles.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: PhasmatisNox
For a basic argument: The third(?) law of thermodynamics states that matter is in a constant state of decomposition, order to chaos, etc. An outside energy force is required to go the other way, which there isn't.

If you're thinking about the evolution of life on Earth, compare Earth with a lifeless world like Pluto. Notice any significant differences, such as the fact that the Earth is a couple hundred Kelvins warmer on average?

Why might that be? Perhaps the Earth does have an external energy source. Next time you go outside, look up at the Sun.

Think about how much energy that delivers to the Earth and look around at all the plants who directly derive their energy from photosynthesis of that energy, then look at us who ultimately derive all the energy that we need to live from those plants directly or indirectly. It's clear that almost all life on Earth is dependent on a very obvious external energy source.

Finally, it's important to be careful when stating the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy does not decrease in a closed system over time. Our intuitive concept of chaos does not always match well with how entropy actually works. After all, ice forms spontaneously in cold enough places without the help of the Sun, and ice crystals are more ordered than fluid water. Even without the Sun, your argument would be flawed.

People I've argued this with try to tell me lightning, or more specifically the passing of positive and negative charges, is an outside force, and that's how we came to be. Lightning didn't create the universe, there's nothing anybody has ever seen or can realistically theorize that would support that 'lightning' was able to form to cosmos.

You must know some interesting people if they think that lightning caused the universe to form. That's a new one to me.

 

[imported_Nail]

Why be Christian instead of Catholic or Muslim? They have just as much faith as you, they're thoroughly convinced that you're going to hell, so why are you right and they're wrong? It's strictly cultural. If your parents are Christian, so will you be.
They are sticking to the story that God cannot be proven, by definition and cannot be quesiotned without punishment. Culture is what stunts the progression of a society.
Why do you believe in God though there's no evidence supporting it? Why are you on that side and the scientists are over here, with exactly as much evidence against it? Because you were told to.

Humans created God.

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: PhasmatisNox
For a basic argument: The third(?) law of thermodynamics states that matter is in a constant state of decomposition, order to chaos, etc. An outside energy force is required to go the other way, which there isn't. People I've argued this with try to tell me lightning, or more specifically the passing of positive and negative charges, is an outside force, and that's how we came to be. Lightning didn't create the universe, there's nothing anybody has ever seen or can realistically theorize that would support that 'lightning' was able to form to cosmos.

From all this, and more that I won't bore you with, I beleive that God created everything. My family is something of a medical family (father owns surgical instrument business, brothers in college for medicine) I've become familiar with the utter compexity of the human body. Looking at it, it is the ultimate in complexity. I don't beleive that that kind of order came from a dense spinning mass of subatomic particles.

Lightning is an electric discharge from cloud to cloud or from cloud to earth accompanied by the emission of light. With that been said, lightning cannot exist in the vacuum we call space. I think what you're trying say is that lightning isn't the reason why there is life on earth. This all goes back to when organic molecules did not exist; then lightning (immense about of heat and energy) comes into play, bringing together nitrogen, hydogen, and carbon dioxide to produce simple organic molecules.

But I am a believer of God; I agree with your idea that the human body is way too complex for random luck/chaos to create.

My only question is this: Why do we fascinate ourselves with pictures of outer space? Could chaos create such a beautiful universe or are we just looking for the mastermind behind the grand scale of things?

 

[cquark]

But I am a believer of God; I agree with your idea that the human body is way too complex for random luck/chaos to create.

Fortunately for science, the theories explaining evolution are called natural selection and sexual selection, not natural randomness or natural chaos.

More seriously, where do people get this idea that evolution is a random process? I'd take a bet that I could flip ten quarters and get ten heads in a few dozen tries any day if I could use selection (keeping the heads from every flip, flipping the tails again) instead of flipping them all at once for a few dozen tries at the 1 in 1024 odds of getting them all at once.

 

[imported_lev]

Originally posted by: Nail
Why be Christian instead of Catholic or Muslim? They have just as much faith as you, they're thoroughly convinced that you're going to hell, so why are you right and they're wrong?

Even if you do not ascribe yourself to be of the same faith as me doesn't mean you are damned to hell in my opinion. Also many scientists do in fact believe in God.

And your statement about humanity filling the void by creating the concept of God confuses me. Is our creation of God like our creation of zero or the concept of infinity?

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: lev

Originally posted by: Nail
Why be Christian instead of Catholic or Muslim? They have just as much faith as you, they're thoroughly convinced that you're going to hell, so why are you right and they're wrong?

Even if you do not ascribe yourself to be of the same faith as me doesn't mean you are damned to hell in my opinion. Also many scientists do in fact believe in God.

And your statement about humanity filling the void by creating the concept of God confuses me. Is our creation of God like our creation of zero or the concept of infinity?

Some may argue that the "creation" or assumption of God was because early humans didn't have science as a way to help them understand how or why things work. And since they knew people and beasts, they assumed it was another creature perhaps similar to what they were familiar with, but larger or more powerful.

Im at an in-between state right now, being raised Christian but begining to think for myself. I did pose the question of "how do we know Christians are right, or if Christians are right, how do we know which denomination/interpretation is correct; or why isn't there a *perfectly clear and precise text of statements about God that isn't open to interpretation because of some ambiguity* that would allow ALL people on this earth to agree on and believe in one supreme particular God and one easily understandable set of rules morals and laws?

her answer: I dont know.

my answer: me either; thats why im not going to church or broadcasting my faith; I have none and its because nothing ive seen is yet definitive enough to make me believe anyone has a correct concrete answer to the question of "how did we get here" thats sensible or provable. and the closest thing to having a good answer for any of it isnt in a religious text.

but thats just me, ive only recently been able to identify some of the ways sciencetific knowledge has been witheld from me in addition to the brainwashing you get from being in church and christian school far more that what I think one ought to be so Im a tad pissed about it all anyway.

 

[gsellis]

My dad always gave the washtub of neutrons homily. All it would take is the creation of a washtub of neutrons at one point and then BANG! BTW, that is not your standard washtub of neutrons, but your all the interpartical space is removed washtub of neutrons. There is also probability involved in creating protein chains that would create life. It is not all that favorable. Can't verify the source of the numbers as they came from a priest/chemistry teacher/headmaster that worked at Oak Ridge and Princeton before becoming the first in the list. Dad used to tell Einstein stories including helping balance his checkbook while at Princeton.

So, it is not either/or, but both. Saying it is one or the other is just to 'fundie' for me (fundie - term for fundamentalist)



edit to change partial to partical...

 

[Juice Box]

I really like yout guy's explination of how we were formed, I know it is a topic which can never be proven one way or another, its just always fun to wonder. The only true time you can see what its al about is when you die i guess.

 

[Tiamat]

IMO, science is just man's explaination of what is occuring around them, inside them, whatever. Science could not have created us because it is merely a 'way of thinking' - we created it. The creation cannot create the creator.

More accurately, your poll should be God vs: "the 'things' that science tries to explain/describe"

Religion answers this question for people who choose to believe. For areligious people, this question remains unanswered since they can only turn to science, and science is always changing - nothing has been proven (in terms of how we got here).

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: PhasmatisNox
For a basic argument: The third(?) law of thermodynamics states that matter is in a constant state of decomposition, order to chaos, etc. An outside energy force is required to go the other way, which there isn't. People I've argued this with try to tell me lightning, or more specifically the passing of positive and negative charges, is an outside force, and that's how we came to be. Lightning didn't create the universe, there's nothing anybody has ever seen or can realistically theorize that would support that 'lightning' was able to form to cosmos.

From all this, and more that I won't bore you with, I beleive that God created everything. My family is something of a medical family (father owns surgical instrument business, brothers in college for medicine) I've become familiar with the utter compexity of the human body. Looking at it, it is the ultimate in complexity. I don't beleive that that kind of order came from a dense spinning mass of subatomic particles.

Lightning is an electric discharge from cloud to cloud or from cloud to earth accompanied by the emission of light. With that been said, lightning cannot exist in the vacuum we call space. I think what you're trying say is that lightning isn't the reason why there is life on earth. This all goes back to when organic molecules did not exist; then lightning (immense about of heat and energy) comes into play, bringing together nitrogen, hydogen, and carbon dioxide to produce simple organic molecules.

But I am a believer of God; I agree with your idea that the human body is way too complex for random luck/chaos to create.

My only question is this: Why do we fascinate ourselves with pictures of outer space? Could chaos create such a beautiful universe or are we just looking for the mastermind behind the grand scale of things?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Cogman]

Im a pretty firm believer that god works through Science and how we where created could easily have been something that he set in motion. So maybe an astroid hid a rock the splashed into a protien puddle that got struck by lightning that caused life to form that evolved into man. It would be an Amazing number of coincidences but I think that god is responcible for starting them. Heck, until we find intellegent life on other planets we don't know how rare something like this is.

Heres something that would be a little bit of a shocker to many of the SciFi people. What if WE are the most intellegent race in the universe? I mean, may be the aliens that invade other planets will be us. Interesting to think about.

 

[Dinominant]

Also many scientists do in fact believe in God.

Are you sure about that? Remember that these scientists are seriously out-numbered, perhaps they are just covering themselves so their idea is accepted.

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: Dinominant

Also many scientists do in fact believe in God.

Are you sure about that? Remember that these scientists are seriously out-numbered, perhaps they are just covering themselves so their idea is accepted.

If you consider the true meaning of scientist, sure! A scientist is anybody who is interested about themselves, others, and the interaction with environment - especially those who ask the "how, why" questions. Of course, you have the scientist scientists, who actually have a degree in the area that strikes them most.

 

[gsellis]

You are confused. You are looking at this from a viewpoint that you either believe in creationism vs science. That is not the real scientific world. There is no true polarity that makes you either a creationist or a scientist. You can be a scientist and believe in a diety. One of the first scientist (genetics) was a monk.

Also, this is better discussed in ATOT.

My dad was areligious until he started working at Princeton on Bikini Atoll materials (cis/trans protein something or other due to gamma radiation?). It was folks there that got him thinking about the priesthood. As you start to understand the universe, there are just some things that make you go huh.

 

[Cawchy87]

I watched a movie on this subject a few years back and it was interesting how he boiled it all down. He said that in the begginning there was God. Or, in the begginning there was a speck of rock/debrie, whatever. How did that debrie get there? There is no explination for it. So you must have faith that it was always there. Or have faith that God put it there. I choose the latter of the two.

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: cquark

But I am a believer of God; I agree with your idea that the human body is way too complex for random luck/chaos to create.

Fortunately for science, the theories explaining evolution are called natural selection and sexual selection, not natural randomness or natural chaos.

More seriously, where do people get this idea that evolution is a random process? I'd take a bet that I could flip ten quarters and get ten heads in a few dozen tries any day if I could use selection (keeping the heads from every flip, flipping the tails again) instead of flipping them all at once for a few dozen tries at the 1 in 1024 odds of getting them all at once.

Even probability is flawed. Unless you keep flipping an infinite number of times, you may stumble across some scenarios where you'll keep getting a single side. As the limit of the number of tosses goes to infinity, THEN does it become 50/50. Do not tell me that the "evolution" of single-cellular organisms is natural selection. Why? Because single-cellular organisms can't choose or select anything! LOL

Nor can randomness/chaos/probability produce an organism which can then evolve into what we are now. The chances of a single-cellular organism encompassing a mitochondria (please don't get into the whole mitochondria has its own RNA) and then encompassing more organisms to create the first organism with organelles is nill. It is probably like trying to plug a female-part adapter into another female-port; it was never intended to do it and never will. Single cellular organisms never intended to encompass other single cellular organisms and probably never did and never will.

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I watched a movie on this subject a few years back and it was interesting how he boiled it all down. He said that in the begginning there was God. Or, in the begginning there was a speck of rock/debrie, whatever. How did that debrie get there? There is no explination for it. So you must have faith that it was always there. Or have faith that God put it there. I choose the latter of the two.

The singularity, a dense ball of infinite density.

And how can a singularity be the beginning of creation? It must've been compressed somehow, but that's how scientists think the universe started.

I put my faith in God, who created the singularity and guided history from then til now. But I do hate him for creating such a vast universe for us to explore

 

[Juice Box]

I honestly believe that if god were real, things like terrorism and violence would not exist or be minimal

 

[gsellis]

A singularity is not infinitely dense. It is just extremely dense. It is finite, just more than we can measure on a bathroom scale. Even Arnold the Govenator cannot lift it.

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I honestly believe that if god were real, things like terrorism and violence would not exist or be minimal

Terrorism and violence are the work of people. According to christianity, God gave people a choice to do their own bidding. Terrorism isnt his problem, its our problem.

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: gsellis
A singularity is not infinitely dense. It is just extremely dense. It is finite, just more than we can measure on a bathroom scale. Even Arnold the Govenator cannot lift it.

But but but... Ahhnold can do anyzhing! ArrrRrrggGuHhH!