The "How did we get here Thread"

[Barnaby W. Füi]

The way I see it:

Humans probably understand a ridiculously small slice of what really exists. It's IMO completely absurd to even begin to assume that we might "know" where things came from and how we all got here. Yes there's evolution and all of that, but I'm not talking about humanity, I'm talking about the entire universe and whatever is beyond it.

As for science explaining it, I think that science only explains what we already know, and I think that we probably know very little. As for religion, I think it is a human construct and irrelevant when it comes to explaining anything other than our own minds (since I believe it is a product of them).

Think about scale. We know about things as small as atoms and sub-atomic particles (I don't know much about this so I can't elaborate a whole lot). The largest thing we know about is the universe. Look at the ridiculous difference in size between those. If things can be that small and that big, what makes us think they can't be 10 times bigger? A billion times bigger? A billion times smaller? etc. And then there's all the stuff about different dimensions, quantum physics, and other crap I don't know much about.

Also, I wonder about the role of infinity. I mean, if things don't go on for an infinite distance (even beyond our universe), then how exactly do they stop? If you went to the "border", what would be on the other side? Nothing? What's nothing? I can't even comprehend that. But even if it did go on infinitely, we can't really comprehend that either. Or maybe it's neither: maybe you go far enough one way and you end up on the other side, just like Columbus did.

I don't know, I've always thought a lot about this type of stuff, but obviously no one can really come to a conclusion about it all, which sucks. Very frustrating.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: EvanB

<snip>

You've never truly fallen in love.

How can you be so pretentious to say that you know what true love is and someone else does not?

Nor do you truly appreciate the difference between "a series of frfrequencies that are quite pleasing to many people" and Mozart.

I have no idea how you can hope make any rational argument using something so obviously subjective and emotional as music. Humans are silly, emotional, irrational animals. When I rub my dog's tummy, he goes into a state of euphoria. Is that a sign that there's a dog god? Or that our god put humans on the earth to rub dogs' tummies? When I trip on LSD, I understand everything in ways that are beyond description. Does that mean that there is a higher power? I hardly see how these things (including the mozart comment) suggest anything other than that animals have brains that process certain things in a way that produces intense pleasure. You've obviously devoted yourself to the idea that there is a god, so I have no idea how you can hope to have a rational debate about the existence of said god. When you devote yourself to an ideology, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to do anything in an argument but defend it. Look at politics.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooeyAlso, I wonder about the role of infinity. I mean, if things don't go on for an infinite distance (even beyond our universe), then how exactly do they stop? If you went to the "border", what would be on the other side? Nothing? What's nothing? I can't even comprehend that. But even if it did go on infinitely, we can't really comprehend that either. Or maybe it's neither: maybe you go far enough one way and you end up on the other side, just like Columbus did.

You've come closest with your last statement. Curved spacetime is a four-dimensional analog of the the surface of the Earth, which is a two-dimensional surface with no end, minus the extra (third) dimension. However, since the horizon is moving away from us faster than the speed of light (remember that the speed of light constrains the speed of information or movement of matter, neither of which includes the expansion of spacetime), you can't reach it in any case unless the expansion reverses (and we can't find enough mass-energy to do that.)

 

[jai6638]

watched a movie on this subject a few years back and it was interesting how he boiled it all down. He said that in the begginning there was God. Or, in the begginning there was a speck of rock/debrie, whatever. How did that debrie get there? There is no explination for it. So you must have faith that it was always there. Or have faith that God put it there. I choose the latter of the two.

I agree.... in order for anything to have been created there must have been some kinda "raw material"... Hence i do believe in god as imo this woudlnt be possible without him...

honestly believe that if god were real, things like terrorism and violence would not exist or be minimal

Well god isnt the one who has created it... terrorim and violence is caused due to humans greed and selfishness... i believe he has given us the brain to judge whats right and wrong and if we mess up then we have no right to blame him for it .. We cant do the dirty work and expect god to clean it up for us ...

cheers

 

[Dinominant]

Originally posted by: jai6638
I agree.... in order for anything to have been created there must have been some kinda "raw material"... Hence i do believe in god as imo this woudlnt be possible without him...

What if the raw materials created themselves simply by following the rules they create? Imagine that there is absolutely nothing at all. You are at second zero, and there is a void, in fact, not even that. Simply nothing. Well, this nothingness has a very special property: There is only one of them, not two, or three, or a god just there in the nothingness. Suddenly you have order. Yes, it is simple order, but math started out with 1+1=2, and that is pretty simple. Also 1+1=2 didn't need people for that to be true, we simply discovered it, and made more and more discovery's, now we have calculus and linear algebra (which is pretty complex, considering it came from 1+1=2).

What would have created god? I've heard people arguing that god came from science, and then created us. Why does there need to be that middle man?

 

[jai6638]

What would have created god? I've heard people arguing that god came from science, and then created us. Why does there need to be that middle man?

i didnt get u ... what are u calling the middle man here??? the humans or science??


cheers

 

[Dinominant]

Originally posted by: jai6638

What would have created god? I've heard people arguing that god came from science, and then created us. Why does there need to be that middle man?

i didnt get u ... what are u calling the middle man here??? the humans or science??


cheers

Sorry about that, I meant to call god the middle man:

science --> god --> man

why can't it just be:

science --> man

 

[Juice Box]

Ok, i was just thinking about this whole Heaven and Hell scenario the other day and it occoured to me. So, in the bible, from what i understand, Hell is run by satan, and people that do bad things go there. now, satans big goal was to go against god and his will, and to NOT do the things god had wanted. So, technically, when you do the things god doesnt want you to do, you are aiding Satans "battle" against "god". I would think that any normal person would reward you in helping them defeat the only person that stand in their way. Maybe this is just me, but i think that you would be rewarded by satan in hell, and that it would be as good as if not better than heaven cause we all know that crime pays.

 

[Cawchy87]

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
Ok, i was just thinking about this whole Heaven and Hell scenario the other day and it occoured to me. So, in the bible, from what i understand, Hell is run by satan, and people that do bad things go there. now, satans big goal was to go against god and his will, and to NOT do the things god had wanted. So, technically, when you do the things god doesnt want you to do, you are aiding Satans "battle" against "god". I would think that any normal person would reward you in helping them defeat the only person that stand in their way. Maybe this is just me, but i think that you would be rewarded by satan in hell, and that it would be as good as if not better than heaven cause we all know that crime pays.

Satan hates all human beings and lures humans into helping him. (sunday school answer)

Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

 

[treadhed]

digitalsnare Supposedly satan knows that he is going to lose in the great battle in the heavans upon the completion of the seven years of tribulation, and he goes about the earth with a band of demons to tempt human beings into sinning and going to hell with him when he is finally banished from the earth into hell. I know, it's one of those things I always tried to make sense of but couldn't when growing up in church.

Sinning: the ultimate Christian cop-out. Sinning is anything that your instinct or human-body or mind may tempt you to do(I.E. Sex without being married, drinking, cussing, lying, cheating) Alot of the "religious law" that exists are good rules of life anyone with a sense of morality should be able to figure out, but alas alot of people have to be told what right and wrong is. Some of the religious law is right out stupid.


BingBongWongFooey

I was going to knock you for posting opinions on god and morality and being a drug user, but I'll let you slide with the statement you made:

Quote
BingBongWongFooey
------------------
I have no idea how you can hope make any rational argument using something so obviously subjective and emotional as music. ....... You've obviously devoted yourself to the idea that there is a god, so I have no idea how you can hope to have a rational debate about the existence of said god. When you devote yourself to an ideology, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to do anything in an argument but defend it. Look at politics.
------------------
Very true statement, because our current political environment has pitted two groups of people that are both wrong sometimes and sometimes both right, but they all either too stupid, too hardheaded or too miserly and greedy to debate the merits of anything.

 

[Cawchy87]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

Ok, that is your belife. My belife is that there was a God before the big bang.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

Ok, that is your belife. My belife is that there was a God before the big bang.

No, I'm not stating a belief, personal or otherwise. I'm stating what the Big Bang is. It's not the creation of matter/energy within an existing spacetime; it's the creation of spacetime itself.

If you want to object to that, that's fine, but object to what scientists state, not your own misinterpretation. Coming up with an interpretation of "before" without time seems impossible to me, but perhaps you're more insightful than I am.

 

[sao123]

Well....

Since neither space nor time are relevent to God as he is not limited to our dimension, universe or any planar existence, The "Big Bang" being the beginning of our space-time ...offers no insight to whether he exists.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: sao123
Since neither space nor time are relevent to God as he is not limited to our dimension, universe or any planar existence, The "Big Bang" being the beginning of our space-time ...offers no insight to whether he exists.

I haven't said anything about the existence deities; I'm just correcting a misapprehension about the nature of the Big Bang.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: treadhed
I was going to knock you for posting opinions on god and morality and being a drug user

Why would you knock someone for being a drug user?

 

[Juice Box]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: treadhed
I was going to knock you for posting opinions on god and morality and being a drug user

Why would you knock someone for being a drug user?

lol

 

[PacFu]

Its all chaos theory. 1 thing happened to cause a chain of events that ultimately formed a bioform that evolved to man. The one thing I think started by God's hand.

But what came first, chicken or egg?

 

[Juice Box]

it all comes down to that blessid question every time!

 

[Juice Box]

I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

And as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you perceive nothing else. After death, there is no time for you - "you" do not exist, as your consciousness has ended. Nothing more can be answered, nothing asked.

 

[Juice Box]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

And as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you perceive nothing else. After death, there is no time for you - "you" do not exist, as your consciousness has ended. Nothing more can be answered, nothing asked.

which would definately suck... big time

 

[Dinominant]

Originally posted by: digitalsnare

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

And as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you perceive nothing else. After death, there is no time for you - "you" do not exist, as your consciousness has ended. Nothing more can be answered, nothing asked.

which would definately suck... big time

Now this is the one thing everybody uderstands. If there is no god, that scenario would suck. So they are forever in denial (The first of the five steps). The second step is Anger. When debating with my religious friends, I find they always get angry with me.

 

[Cawchy87]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

And as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you perceive nothing else. After death, there is no time for you - "you" do not exist, as your consciousness has ended. Nothing more can be answered, nothing asked.

Well don't you have lots to look forward to then :S

 

[Juice Box]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

And as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you perceive nothing else. After death, there is no time for you - "you" do not exist, as your consciousness has ended. Nothing more can be answered, nothing asked.

Well don't you have lots to look forward to then :S

thats what i thoght!