The "How did we get here Thread"

[tinyabs]

Originally posted by: Dinominant
Can anybody prove that there is/are no god/gods? I don't think so.
Can anybody prove that there isn't/aren't a/any god/gods? I don't think so.

As we gets more enlightened, the need for gods is less for many people. But some things like feeling and love can't be replaced entirely by science. Every human, even animals, has feelings and by my defintion, we are gods of a small magnitude.

And also, religions comes and goes throughout the history. We don't need a god like Zeus or Helios anymore. We don't believe in gods for nothing; only gods that fulfill our wishes exists.

Our world is only one dimension of the Universe and gods and science only applies to our world. Other dimensions might have different goals.

 

[tinyabs]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

Maybe there is, the Big Bang occurs after the collapse of the previous Universe. Who knows we are doing a replay here of the previous Universe i.e. the Universe is not random but cycle after cycle of the same movie.

 

[Juice Box]

There is no way to know, and I dont think there ever will be, nless we are somehow reborn in the next universe.... If thats possible.. But i do believe all of religion has to do with the denial we are in for not knowing why we are truly here

 

[Harvey]

How did we get here? To quote John Lennon, "Turned left at Greenland." :laugh:

 

[Juice Box]

Originally posted by: Harvey
How did we get here? To quote John Lennon, "Turned left at Greenland." :laugh:

mmm hmm?

 

[Cawchy87]

Originally posted by: tinyabs

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

Maybe there is, the Big Bang occurs after the collapse of the previous Universe. Who knows we are doing a replay here of the previous Universe i.e. the Universe is not random but cycle after cycle of the same movie.

That is a good thought, there was an article in Discover magazine mabye a year ago about a cycle that our universe may go through. I guess i have to make a stop at the librairy to dig that and an older scientific american up.

 

[Juice Box]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: tinyabs

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

Maybe there is, the Big Bang occurs after the collapse of the previous Universe. Who knows we are doing a replay here of the previous Universe i.e. the Universe is not random but cycle after cycle of the same movie.

That is a good thought, there was an article in Discover magazine mabye a year ago about a cycle that our universe may go through. I guess i have to make a stop at the librairy to dig that and an older scientific american up.

You def should

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: digitalsnare
I suppose this will never go answered till the point where you die

And as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you perceive nothing else. After death, there is no time for you - "you" do not exist, as your consciousness has ended. Nothing more can be answered, nothing asked.

Well don't you have lots to look forward to then :S

I find that amusing...and bordering on offensive - that I hold that belief, that must mean that I think that life is just pointless. Hey, might as well go out and start killing people, and just doing whatever I feel like. We all just die and rot, right? :roll:
That you need to have a carrot held over your head to make you do good - just shows how far the race has to evolve yet I guess. Don't do good for the sake of doing good - you do it so you'll get rewarded later. Back to the Santa Claus analogy - be good now, and Santa will reward you later in the year. Be good now, and God will reward you after you die. At some point we realize that there is no Santa, right?
In terms of looking forward to things, well, I do. Like tomorrow - I'll be waking up to go to work. I don't like my job much at all. It's mindless, the customers can get annoying, and there are always managers around wanting to wring out every last iota of productivity. But I do at least have a steady job, and a good place to live, and a good relation with my parents. So it's really not too bad here if you just zoom out a bit.

And also, religions comes and goes throughout the history. We don't need a god like Zeus or Helios anymore. We don't believe in gods for nothing; only gods that fulfill our wishes exists.

Makes me wonder too - since religion keeps "evolving", when would anyone know when we find a religion that really has it right? I mean, aren't they all supposed to be correct, right now?

Maybe there is, the Big Bang occurs after the collapse of the previous Universe. Who knows we are doing a replay here of the previous Universe i.e. the Universe is not random but cycle after cycle of the same movie.

My little theory on this - boom, collapse, boom, collapse. But earlier on, the cycles were more rapid - there was more energy and mass, so it would all fall in on itself. But each time, EM energy escapes into the void beyond, which is not sucked back in. Eventually, it'd reach a state where it just disperses entirely.
But then, that's from someone who's not had much in the way of advanced quantum astrophysics. Just a thought.

 

[Dinominant]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
My little theory on this - boom, collapse, boom, collapse. But earlier on, the cycles were more rapid - there was more energy and mass, so it would all fall in on itself. But each time, EM energy escapes into the void beyond, which is not sucked back in. Eventually, it'd reach a state where it just disperses entirely.

There is one problem with that idea: What would have started that whole chain of events? Something must have started it, whether it is nothing (literally), or something. If it was something, then what started that something? You can trace it all the way back to the beginning. Nothing started something that started something ... that started the bang, that is now collapsing.

If something started that initial event, then it wasn't the initial event, therefore it was not the beginning. Thinking logically there is only a few possibilities for 'stage one':

- Everything is true (total chaos)
- Nothing is true (perfect order)

Thinking about it more: If everything was true (total chaos) it would be impossible for rules to exist (chaos cannot maintain order), and if there is order in reality (1+1=2) then chaos is not a reality.

so... in 'stage one' there was nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Maybe there is, the Big Bang occurs after the collapse of the previous Universe. Who knows we are doing a replay here of the previous Universe i.e. the Universe is not random but cycle after cycle of the same movie.

My little theory on this - boom, collapse, boom, collapse. But earlier on, the cycles were more rapid - there was more energy and mass, so it would all fall in on itself. But each time, EM energy escapes into the void beyond, which is not sucked back in. Eventually, it'd reach a state where it just disperses entirely.
But then, that's from someone who's not had much in the way of advanced quantum astrophysics. Just a thought.

Remember that the Big Bang is the expansion of spacetime: there's no place where the EM energy can escape to. As for cyclic Big Bang/Crunch cycles, it's been proposed, though it wouldn't be a cause in the normal sense, since there's no way to time order the events, as there's no time.

There is one problem with that idea: What would have started that whole chain of events?

What if it's an infinite chain? But in any case, our notion of causality is even less applicable here than it is in the randomness of quantum mechanics.

 

[Cawchy87]

Originally posted by: digitalsnare

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: tinyabs

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Also, just as another rant... Ask youself "what was before that?" You will eventully come to the singularity of particals before the big bang... what was before that?

The Big Bang is the creation of spacetime itself. There is no "before" without time.

Maybe there is, the Big Bang occurs after the collapse of the previous Universe. Who knows we are doing a replay here of the previous Universe i.e. the Universe is not random but cycle after cycle of the same movie.

That is a good thought, there was an article in Discover magazine mabye a year ago about a cycle that our universe may go through. I guess i have to make a stop at the librairy to dig that and an older scientific american up.

You def should

Pop Sci artical on 10 dimensions

Still looking for the discover article.

Found the discover article on the never ending universe.

 

[Dinominant]

Originally posted by: cquark
our notion of causality is even less applicable here

There must be a higher level or reality to contain that infinite loop you suggest. There doesn't necessarily have to be a beginning, and there doesn't necessarily have to be an end. But there must be cause and effect:

If there was no beginning, then everything we see always existed, and always will.
But if everything is contained in a cycle, what would dictate the properties of that cycle?
What would dictate the properties of the properties that would dictate the properties of that cycle?
What would dictate the properties of those properties?
What would dictate the properties of those properties?
What would dictate the properties of those properties?
...

What would say that 'stage 4' is mid-big-bang?
That would mean there is a system containing that cycle.
What would dictate the properties of that system?
What would dictate the properties of the system contain that one?
What would dictate the properties of the system contain that one?
What would dictate the properties of the system contain that one?
...

Any rules that apply within a system, apply outside the system. Any rules that apply outside the system are not required to apply within. A system cannot contain a duplicate of itself.
So in the outermost system everything must apply. All is true. Chaos.
In our reality 1+1=2. That is order.
Chaos cannot maintain order.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Dinominant

Originally posted by: cquark
our notion of causality is even less applicable here

There must be a higher level or reality to contain that infinite loop you suggest.

I don't think there is such a loop. I was just pointing out a possibility you didn't consider when you said there was a cause to the chain of events.

There doesn't necessarily have to be a beginning, and there doesn't necessarily have to be an end. But there must be cause and effect:

Why? Causality doesn't automatically fall out of special relativity. It's an additional condition we impose later because of how we perceive the world. General relativity permits time travel under extreme conditions (a toroidal black hole rotating near the speed of light will cause an object traversing its center to rotate its time and space dimensions, causing radial space travel to be equivalent to backwards time travel, allowing travel back to the formation of the time machine situation itself but no further), which means closed timelike loops such as we see in SF movies like Terminator are possible. The cause of John Conner is confined within that loop--he would have never been born without his own presence to inspire Skynet to use time travel to send the terminator back in time, causing him to send his own father back in time to ensure his own birth.

Quantum mechanics doesn't offer much hope for causality in our normal sense either. While I'm not sure that we could live our lives without our sense of cause and effect, that doesn't mean that it applies in extreme conditions far outside those under which our species evolved and under which we live today.

Any rules that apply within a system, apply outside the system. Any rules that apply outside the system are not required to apply within. A system cannot contain a duplicate of itself.
So in the outermost system everything must apply. All is true. Chaos.
In our reality 1+1=2. That is order.
Chaos cannot maintain order.

Let's take your introduction of arithmetic and examine some of its properties, for example, the commutative property that ab = ba. Classical physics uses commutative arithmetic, but quantum physics uses noncommutative arithmetics. In classical physics, position (x) and momentum (p) commute (i.e, xp - px = 0), but in quantum physics we have the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which mathematically is stated in the form xp - px = ih. See Chapter 4 of Dirac's Quantum Mechanics for details.

 

[tinyabs]

Originally posted by: jai6638
I agree.... in order for anything to have been created there must have been some kinda "raw material"... Hence i do believe in god as imo this woudlnt be possible without him...

Well god isnt the one who has created it... terrorim and violence is caused due to humans greed and selfishness... i believe he has given us the brain to judge whats right and wrong and if we mess up then we have no right to blame him for it .. We cant do the dirty work and expect god to clean it up for us ...

cheers

That raw material is dust. Atom comprise is dust and we see photon dusts everyday.

How much money God had spend to create this Universe is irrelevant but he did it in 7 days without overtime.

We are born this way to prevent the dieases from spreading to other Universes. If we know how we get here, God's life would be very difficult. He will delete bad apples from the Void on Judgement Day, which again costs lots of money to select good from bad (years of Court sessions), buy lands for good people on Heaven and hires lots of angels.

Simply believe in God at your last moment and you will go to Heaven.

 

[tinyabs]

Originally posted by: sao123
Well....

Since neither space nor time are relevent to God as he is not limited to our dimension, universe or any planar existence, The "Big Bang" being the beginning of our space-time ...offers no insight to whether he exists.

He was blown away during the Big Bang.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: tinyabs

Originally posted by: sao123
Well....

Since neither space nor time are relevent to God as he is not limited to our dimension, universe or any planar existence, The "Big Bang" being the beginning of our space-time ...offers no insight to whether he exists.

He was blown away during the Big Bang.

Heh, yeah, God was trying to create a Universe in His Oven, but then what would soon become a Jehova's Witness arrived at His Door, and so God forgot about the Oven, and it blew up.

 

[Juice Box]

I just thought that now that Im back, id try and revive this thread

 

[bobsmith1492]

Well, using basic logic:

1. Every time something begins it has a cause. 2. The universe had a beginning. 3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.

Fairly straightforward; anyone care to argue either of the two first points?

By the way, isn't this more off topic? I fail to see how this relates to computer hardware....

 

[dguy6789]

This is such a complicated subject. I could go on for a hundred pages, but I will try to keep this short.


First of all, the Humans do not KNOW for sure ANYTHING about the universe. they have beliefs which are held by alot of people, but untill they have been there and experienced everything it has to offer, they KNOW nothing. You cant learn all about something just by looking at it, and thats all we have done besides the moon landing.

There has been absolutely NO evidence proving ANYONE has a soul. We have scanned the human body with every tool we have, and there is no soul to be found. We may find it later, but as of now, there is no proof what so ever.

Death can be explained fairly simply. Do you remember what it felt like before you were born? Thats what after death will feel like. Nothing.

If god exists, then what created god? What created the thing that created god? There is no beggining of time, nor an end of time, as time is infinte. You can ask the question what created this, and what created the thing that created that, an infinite number of times, therefore, there is no such thing as a begining, or at least comprehendable by humans at their current state of mind.

Things to understand. Think of the things to become learned, as an ocean with no end on any side. Think of human understanding as an island that is growing. No matter how much the "island" grows, it will never cover the entire "ocean" as the ocean is endless. There is no limit to the things to understand in the universe.

Part of me, wants to believe in a god, so that in the end, we know everything is going to be ok, and someone is here for us forever, but part of me doesnt think that way, and just wants to continue learning about things and doesnt believe some all knowing being can possibly exist.

 

[PsharkJF]

Heck guys, I know I got here from a c-section.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: dguy6789There has been absolutely NO evidence proving ANYONE has a soul. We have scanned the human body with every tool we have, and there is no soul to be found.

And you are not being ironic!

 

[CSMR]

Various points that need to be given:

1. Natural science is description and extrapolation, not "explanation".
2. Probability does not cause anything; Probability is a description of our uncertainty.
3. God is not an object; "the soul" is not an object; morality is not an object. They are not understandable via natural science, and any natural science is compatible with any of them.
4. Creation by God speaks our aim as humans and a higher truth; physical causation speaks of a pattern in physical facts, and is analagously independent of creation.

 

[dnuggett]

There has been absolutely NO evidence proving ANYONE has a soul. We have scanned the human body with every tool we have, and there is no soul to be found. We may find it later, but as of now, there is no proof what so ever.

What type of "material" were they scanning for?

tinyabs Simply believe in God at your last moment and you will go to Heaven

Wow, are you serious? I think you should definitely give that a try. Just right at that last second.

 

[Neptune3000]

You'll be glad to know that we're al made of STARDUST. cool eh? According to the big bang theory, after stars atrted to form they create al the elements on the periodic table to Iron then eplode and create the others. we're made fo elements

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

There has been absolutely NO evidence proving ANYONE has a soul. We have scanned the human body with every tool we have, and there is no soul to be found. We may find it later, but as of now, there is no proof what so ever.

What type of "material" were they scanning for?

tinyabs Simply believe in God at your last moment and you will go to Heaven

Wow, are you serious? I think you should definitely give that a try. Just right at that last second.

we dont know what material a soul is made of, so just scanning in general for any evidence of one.