The Hybrid MYTH!

[SLEEPER5555]

I posted this in another unrelated forum but i wanted to see what the opinion was over here with my fellow techies!

(START RANT) Don't beleive hybrids are a scam? looking for "50 miles per gallon" KEEP LOOKING! Read these links, they note the revised gov testing procedures that fit todays driving habbits. They also show that no one gets 50MPG in a toyota prius. The prius has been given a 30% reduction in its MPG by the gov, this will be reflected on next years window stickers. Now factor in the added cost of a hybrid and you will see your better off with any "normal vehicle" there is no benefit to a prius except to pretend your doing the right thing and make toyota and all these other scammers huge piles of cash.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/UPDATE/612110431

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/NEWS99/61211032

So the other arguement is that your "doing it for the environment and for the future of your children and the planet earth" thats great but as you know these cars have more batteries than standard cars (needed to hold the hybrids charge). These batteries need to be replaced every so many years depending on miles driven (at a cost of last time i looked $4000 dollars by the way, further setting you in the hole tword any artificial hybrid savings) so what happens to the old batteries? old batteries in a junkyard are far worse for the environment than a little filtered out carbon gas, the long term effect is polluting the ground for hundreds or even thousands of years. Cars of today put out nearly zip compared to even the cars of the 90's let alone those of the 70's. And i have said it before here but i will say it again the methane levels in cows farts deplete the ozone layer at a faster rate than current carbon levels of auto's do, so untill cows stop farting stop complaining about cars killing your environment. Also remember the ozone layer is in better shape than it was a few years ago and it continues to rebuild itself.

One more point i would like to make in this rant, a few years ago people were worried about "Global freezing" then suddenly that was aborted for "Global Warming", (big shot out to Al Gore, we wouldn't be talking right now if it wasn't for him because remember according to his ramblings he invented the internet ) The point is we are making this stuff up as we go along without enough research. For every scientist who says wine is bad there is one who says its great for you! Untill we have enough facts to really make a valid point why must we be so against those who choose to buy hummers, suburbans and tahoes? One day we will do something that pisses off mother earth and we will get shaken off like a bunch of fleas on a dog, or like the dinosaurs that as powerful and strong as they were got wipped out one day to put it into more realistic terms. Life is about survival of the fittest and this earth is much more fit than we are, when our times up trust me we will know it! (END RANT)

Interested in your thoughts and replies! (even if you own a hybrid)

 

[BrownTown]

Your right about hybrids have little or no real effect on reducing CO2 in the long term and mainly being a ego booster for their owners. However you are wrong about global warming, global warming IS real there really is no debate on that issue right now. Also, incidentally global cooling WAS also real, the earth did cool in that period, however the current effects of global warming are buch larger than the small cooling period. IF you want to argue about global warming then you can argue about mans involvemnet in it, or whether or not it really is a bad thing, but you can't really argue that global warming isnt happening, becasue it is.

 

[SearchMaster]

My brother-in-law has a Prius and almost always gets 55+ MPG. We got ~50 MPG at a constant 85MPH+ road trip recently. I am NOT a big believer in hybrids but I can't argue with his results. As always, YMMV .

 

[SLEEPER5555]

brown - if you do some searching you will see this is still a disputed "fact"

search - hybrid according to manufactures get lower MPGs on freeway than on roads because of the way the hybrid thing works. so what are you basing the 85mph trip on? was this the onboard computer or your guess based on filling the tank or? just trying to see where your getting this from.

 

[SearchMaster]

It was based on the onboard computer, which he said he had verified to be accurate in the past (but not on this particular trip). I know hybrids are more effective in the city, but it's also a vehicle that is completely optimized for fuel efficiency, with or without the batteries, so 50MPG certainly isn't outrageous even at those speeds.

 

[touchmyichi]

I'm not going to go into the science of hybrids (which people here will prove you wrong on) but I will say this-

Buying a hybrid sends a message that people are interested in alternative forms of vehicles and fuels. That's something we desperately need to do with global warming becoming an issue (and it IS real, if you don't believe anyone here consult a local professor and they will be happy to prove it to you). At the very least, buying a hybrid is a statement that you care about these issues and wish that manufacturers pay more attention to these issues. Everyone needs to do their part in this huge global issue.

edit: oh yeah and hummers and huge SUV's are absurd for 99% of Americans (hint: how many of these cars do you see in other countries? Do you think that maybe we could do without them if they can?). Completely impractical.

 

[SLEEPER5555]

touch - so buying a hybrid is about nothing more than felling warm and fuzzy? i assume you own one?


thanks all for the replies, this is interesting to hear everyones story and point of view!

 

[Colt45]

if you want 50 MPG buy a small diesel.

 

[touchmyichi]

Originally posted by: SLEEPER5555
touch - so buying a hybrid is about nothing more than felling warm and fuzzy? i assume you own one?


thanks all for the replies, this is interesting to hear everyones story and point of view!

Oh no, I completely agree with most other people here. I've known people who have driven hybrids and can definitely attest to high mpg. As I said though, I'm leaving the science to other people in the thread here (because I'm lazy). I'm just saying that the environmental concerns are a very good side effect of purchasing one.

Oh yeah- I don't own a hybrid, but I live on a small campus and ride a bike (ha! )

 

[Suture]

I remember seeing an article in either Car & Driver or Motor Trend where they also argued that hybrids were not as great as previously thought. They mentioned something along the same lines of what you said, how the gas mileage isn't what is advertised, and how diesels should be taken into consideration as an alternative means to gasoline.

I also have a friend that drives for Consumer Reports, and he's always preferred diesels over hybrids as well.

But 30%, wow. I didn't know it was that much of a difference.

 

[SearchMaster]

Also consider that a person's driving habits change when they drive a hybrid. It becomes almost like a video game to try to make the little onboard readout as high as possible. So you tend to start slower from rest to maximize battery discharge, optimize your braking to regenerate faster, etc. I find myself doing something similar in our Odyssey EX-L, which has the technology that shuts off 3 cylinders when it can. I find myself letting off the gas pedal when going downhill or on a flat stretch to get the little "ECO" light to come on as often as possible.

Again, I'm not a proponent of hybrids but I appreciate the efforts that automobile manufacturers (primarily Toyota and Honda) have put into their R&D.

My sister bought a Prius about 2-3 months ago. I'll ask her next time we speak what kind of mileage she's seeing.

 

[SearchMaster]

With regard to diesels, they've come a LONG way since the 80s. But keep in mind that diesel fuel (at least around here) is quite a bit more expensive than regular gas, so any cost savings by fuel efficiency is certainly negated. I think Volkswagon in Europe just came out with a small diesel engine that is supercharged at low RPMs and turbocharged at high RPMs. I'm very curious to see how this will play out in the real world.

 

[SLEEPER5555]

glad to hear everyones opinions and i am glad we can talk about it without getting at each other too much, really nice!

On the diesels i must say i agree, they are much better MPG and i cannot wait for the chrysler/GM co-dev diesel hybrid system, it seems to have real promise on the MPG side but again there is is the added cost (in this case for both diesel and hybrid, plus the much higher price of gas)

hydrogen seems like the best idea long term but there is much work to be done there.

for those who have seen 50 on a prius, did you read the linked stories? what do you make of that?

thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and keeping it calm!

 

[SLEEPER5555]

search - i agree with you there too, cylinder deactivation seems like the best idea now that adds no cost. I have owned 2 V8's with this technology in the last 2 years and it still had the 340hp 390ftlbs of torque when needed yet for cruising on the highway i got/get as much as 26mpg out of a big 5.7l V8 in a ride that weighs in at over 4000lbs. that is impressive and cost virtually nothing for the manufacture and customer

 

[Mardeth]

Perfect option would be a diesel hybrid. Best of both worlds. But in any case hybrids rock in city driving. On a freeway the advantage is lost but its still a very economical car. Buy hybrid or a diesel based on where you drive the most.

 

[SLEEPER5555]

mardeth - so whats your opinion on the linked stories, saying hybrids rock but nothing else just seems like you work for toyota (just kidding) but seriously let us hear you.

 

[forrestroche]

Originally posted by: SLEEPER5555
hydrogen seems like the best idea long term but there is much work to be done there.

At the moment the energy required to process hydrogen places more contaminants and co2 into the atmosphere than a conventional internal combustion engine.

Despite the revisions the EPA is making to consumption calculation methodology, the fact is that for the last five years the two lowest consumption vehicles were hybrids, after which came a dense mix of hybrid and diesel. See the EPA's own rankings.

So yes, according to new calculation methods the stated economy goes down on all cars, but the hybrids retain their ranking as the cleanest vehicles on the road.

As to climate change, there is considerable debate about the when, where, how much but there is no substantive debate about whether it is happening. In 2001 the White House comissioned a report from the National Academy of Sciences which states that it is happening. The White House itself accepted the conclusions of the NAS in a later report which advocated adaptation as opposed to remediation as the appropriate response.

I think a responsible person, even if they believed there is still some debate, would want to limit potential damage until that debate is concluded. And for that reason, I think that even assuming the facts in the light most favorable to the sceptics, it is irresponsible to insist on driving large and inefficient vehicles.

Can we at least agree on that?

 

[Turin39789]

yoinks! the rated mpg on all cars is seriously off. The testing is flawed, the only way to get most cars rated mpg is to accelerate to 60 in a minute and a half.

 

[sandorski]

Max MPG isn't really the point of Hybrids though. What Hybrids do is make Vehicles in various Classes more Fuel Efficient. Everybody can't buy the smallest Car, most(probably) need something larger than a Sub-Compact, Hybrids offer these people a more Fuel Efficient option over non-Hybrids. That's especially true for those who primarily drive in the City.

 

[WolverineGator]

Myth: Hybrid batteries need to be replaced.

Dave Hermance, Toyota's executive engineer for advanced technology vehicles, says that with these conservation measures, "we think it's a life-of-the-vehicle battery." Toyota said it has yet to have a charge-related warranty claim.

Myth: New EPA regulations hurt hybrids more than other cars.

Mpg ratings are nonlinear, Toyota notes, so a drop from 60 to 50 mpg has less effect than a drop from 20 to 10 mpg. What matters is extra gallons used.

The quotes above came from:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1970576,00.asp

GM's Vice Chairman for product development Bob Lutz went even further. "I think the electrification of the automobile is not just a possibility. It's inevitable."

Wall Street Journal: December 11, 2006; Page D7

(START RANT)
Misinformation provided by people like SLEEPER5555. Hybrids are the future. Nothing beats the efficiency of an electric motor. Only about 15% of the energy from the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car down the road. (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml)

You could envision electric motors at each wheel to be compact, high power, and extremely reliable. On demand all wheel drive without the inefficiencies of a standard AWD drivetrain. Now, the power behind that electric motor remains to be determined. It could be hydrogen, gasoline, diesel, or something else.
(END RANT)

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: touchmyichi
I'm not going to go into the science of hybrids (which people here will prove you wrong on) but I will say this-

Buying a hybrid sends a message that people are interested in alternative forms of vehicles and fuels. That's something we desperately need to do with global warming becoming an issue (and it IS real, if you don't believe anyone here consult a local professor and they will be happy to prove it to you). At the very least, buying a hybrid is a statement that you care about these issues and wish that manufacturers pay more attention to these issues. Everyone needs to do their part in this huge global issue.

edit: oh yeah and hummers and huge SUV's are absurd for 99% of Americans (hint: how many of these cars do you see in other countries? Do you think that maybe we could do without them if they can?). Completely impractical.

Although some of what you say might be true, in the long run the only real factor the consumer will use is the almighty dollar. Its almost the same as the outsourcing debate. Ask most people if they agree with outsourcing jobs to other countries and they say they strongly oppose it. Yet, the majority of those people still buy their Chinese goods from Wal-mart because its cheaper.

At this point in time, it is not economically sound to buy a hybrid vehicle. Add to that factor that unless it starts making a much more serious dent in our pockets, Americans are not going to sacrifice luxury. That?s obvious by the fact that we still use as much oil in the U.S. in light of all the recent ?in your face? coverage of where that oil money is actually going.

 

[forrestroche]

Originally posted by: SLEEPER5555
...so what happens to the old batteries? old batteries in a junkyard are far worse for the environment than a little filtered out carbon gas, the long term effect is polluting the ground for hundreds or even thousands of years.

You ask the question but don't research the answer. There are strict EPA guidlines that regulate the disposal of batteries and only dealerships are replacing hybrid cells.

Cars of today put out nearly zip compared to even the cars of the 90's..

False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

 

[b0mbrman]

Don't you know? Hybrids have never been about saving money...

But they're total panty-droppers

 

[franksta]

I'm not convinced that 'global warming' is caused entirely by civilization.

I think hybrids are trendy and in 25 years they'll be seen as a transition vehicle. I don't drive enough to justify the initial cash outlay, even so gas is still cheap. Can I service it myself or do I have to take it to a dealer for everything?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: forrestroche

False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

Bah, MPG to weight has improved dramatically. It's just that weight has increased with the popularity of SUVs.

Still, size for size, MPG is way up.