The Hybrid MYTH!

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Colt45
if you want 50 MPG buy a small diesel.

FTW

Smaller engines help too (e.g. Get a 4-cyl rather than the V8 you don't need)

But don't you know that (according to these forums) HP and 0-60 times are EVERYTHING???
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
Originally posted by: forrestroche

Cars of today put out nearly zip compared to even the cars of the 90's..
False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

That's an extremely silly comparison.
 

forrestroche

Senior member
Apr 25, 2005
529
7
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: forrestroche

False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

Bah, MPG to weight has improved dramatically. It's just that weight has increased with the popularity of SUVs.

Still, size for size, MPG is way up.
You have not contradicted me.

 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,442
211
106
Fact, the prius gets the best gas mileage

they also tested the Escape hybrid and Honda Accord hybrid and ran them head to head against a Jetta diesel and other 4 cylinder cars
Bottom line the Prius wins the day tested in identical real world traffic and driving conditions.
I also watched another show comparing a civic hybrid to a regular civic sea to sea and the hybrid beat the regular civic by the epa estimates % 's, yes neither car lived up EPA estimates but the difference was roughly the same percentage.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,218
8
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Colt45
if you want 50 MPG buy a small diesel.

FTW

Smaller engines help too (e.g. Get a 4-cyl rather than the V8 you don't need)

But don't you know that (according to these forums) HP and 0-60 times are EVERYTHING???

My car is more of the 0-60 = yes cars.

I'd love to be able to pick up a car or light truck with a small diesel, vw tdi mmmmmmmmm.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
Originally posted by: forrestroche
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: forrestroche

False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

Bah, MPG to weight has improved dramatically. It's just that weight has increased with the popularity of SUVs.

Still, size for size, MPG is way up.
You have not contradicted me.

Just your negative spin. Efficiency is up. That's a fact.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
meh, people sh(t on hybrids to justify their suv/truck purchases. not because they bought some super diesel or whatever.

as for "economical"....most cars are not economical. paying thousands extra for nicer fabric, leather, better sound systems, folding roofs, more hp, none of that pays for itself either. so its a buncha nonsense.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
meh, people sh(t on hybrids to justify their suv/truck purchases. not because they bought some super diesel or whatever.

Meh, I sh!t on hybrids and I have a VW.
 

forrestroche

Senior member
Apr 25, 2005
529
7
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Just your negative spin. Efficiency is up. That's a fact.
Whatever.

Truck efficiency is up.
Car efficiency is up.
Average total fleet efficiency is not up.

That's not spin, THAT's the fact. There has been a slow but steady slide of vehicles into the light truck category. The DOT has lowered several times both economy standards (later revised up again), and weight limits for light truck classification (not revised up again).

If you want to hear it from the horse's mouth, then read the DOT report on light truck standards for 2008-2011. Included is considerable historical data including the fact that on three ocassions since 1979 the weight restrictions on light truck classification has been lowered, for a total of over 2000 lbs.

More and more vehicles have been sucked into a category that has considerably lower standards. Why? The report explains that standards were lowered when "actions available to manufacturers to improve their fuel economy levels... would have involved product restrictions likely resulting in signifigant adverse economic impacts." Where did the evidence for these "adverse economic impacts" come from? According to the DOT they relied on information provided by Chrysler for many of these changes.

But yeah, that's just spin.


 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
Originally posted by: forrestroche
Originally posted by: Amused
Just your negative spin. Efficiency is up. That's a fact.
Whatever.

Truck efficiency is up.
Car efficiency is up.
Average total fleet efficiency is not up.

That's not spin, THAT's the fact. There has been a slow but steady slide of vehicles into the light truck category. The DOT has lowered several times both economy standards (later revised up again), and weight limits for light truck classification (not revised up again).

If you want to hear it from the horse's mouth, then read the DOT report on light truck standards for 2008-2011. Included is considerable historical data including the fact that on three ocassions since 1979 the weight restrictions on light truck classification has been lowered, for a total of over 2000 lbs.

More and more vehicles have been sucked into a category that has considerably lower standards. Why? The report explains that standards were lowered when "actions available to manufacturers to improve their fuel economy levels... would have involved product restrictions likely resulting in signifigant adverse economic impacts." Where did the evidence for these "adverse economic impacts" come from? According to the DOT they relied on information provided by Chrysler for many of these changes.

But yeah, that's just spin.

My point was engines are much more efficient. Your OP didn't make that clear.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Its going to be a lot better.

Battery energy density technologies are just around the corner that will triple the energy density of batteries.

This will make hybrid and full electric vehicles much more viable for the average consumer in 5-10 years.

The energy density (and as a result weight and size) of batteries is whats holding hybrid and full electric technology back.

The real question is, when we go full electric, will we be able to produce clean enough energy at the power plant level to actually be of benefit. We need more wind / hydro / solar / geothermal / nuclear power to compensate for the enormous energy demand via electricity that is ahead.
 

rivan

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2003
9,677
3
81
I'm 6'5" and about 280 lbs. I drive a V8 SUV. Why? Because it's the only size class that I can sit in, with good posture, and not rub my head on the roof and/or crane my neck to see stoplights. I also need to get a 2-year old and (soon) an infant into and out of the back seats. I tried it with a Taurus (wife's old company car) - horrid experience that was. Her new minivan is much better for the kid, but still terrible for me and my posture.

I'll be quite happy to look at hybrids when one's built for someone my size - something I don't expect for some years to come. Currently the Highlander is the only vehicle that comes close. I'd switch right now if there was a hybrid version of my Sequoia.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
Originally posted by: forrestroche

Cars of today put out nearly zip compared to even the cars of the 90's..
False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

no, the non-carbon emissions, which is what he must be referring to when he says 'put out nearly zip,' are way down on cars over the past couple of decades.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
Originally posted by: rivan
I'm 6'5" and about 280 lbs. I drive a V8 SUV. Why? Because it's the only size class that I can sit in, with good posture, and not rub my head on the roof and/or crane my neck to see stoplights. I also need to get a 2-year old and (soon) an infant into and out of the back seats. I tried it with a Taurus (wife's old company car) - horrid experience that was. Her new minivan is much better for the kid, but still terrible for me and my posture.

I'll be quite happy to look at hybrids when one's built for someone my size - something I don't expect for some years to come. Currently the Highlander is the only vehicle that comes close. I'd switch right now if there was a hybrid version of my Sequoia.

Same here. I am not small and don't fit in a Honda Civic. I drive large vehicles because I fit in them, plain and simple.

Enviro-whackers can fvck off.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
Originally posted by: forrestroche
Originally posted by: Amused
Just your negative spin. Efficiency is up. That's a fact.
Whatever.

Truck efficiency is up.
Car efficiency is up.
Average total fleet efficiency is not up.

efficiency is useful work per unit of energy. and that is up. the engines are doing more work (pushing more weight), and that is why consumption is up as well.
 

forrestroche

Senior member
Apr 25, 2005
529
7
81
Originally posted by: rivan
I'm 6'5" and about 280 lbs.

Ok, so your karma is good to go. But you are not the typical adult. Most people fit just fine into a much much smaller vehicle. I am 6'1" and fit into a Citroen AX (that's a very small car). It is comfortable. I don't like the tin can ride but I don't use much gas and that makes a difference at European gas prices. I can also park easy. And when I have a kid, unless he is abnormal, he/she will fit fine in the back. And since I don't like chicks who are bigger than me, when I have one of those, I am pretty sure she will fit too.

 

zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: SearchMaster
My brother-in-law has a Prius and almost always gets 55+ MPG. We got ~50 MPG at a constant 85MPH+ road trip recently. I am NOT a big believer in hybrids but I can't argue with his results. As always, YMMV .

I find that hard to believe. The display only shows the mpg at that exact moment and is not reflective of what your actual mpg is. I used to have a Nissan that had the same display though it was not hybrid. Whenever I slowed down or drove at a consistent speed, it showed pretty good mpg (~ 60-80mpg) but that really didn't factor into the gas savings at the pump.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Colt45
if you want 50 MPG buy a small diesel.

FTW

Smaller engines help too (e.g. Get a 4-cyl rather than the V8 you don't need)

i can't imagine how bad the mileage would be in an F150 with a small 4 cylinder.
 

newmachineoverlord

Senior member
Jan 22, 2006
484
0
0
The OP clearly has some common misconceptions about hybrids. Battery replacement/failure is a non-issue, and cab drivers have had the batteries last for 250k miles with no problems.
http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html
"In November of 2005, when asked about the price of a new Prius battery, Toyota spokeswoman Mona Richard said, "The service parts price for a new battery is $3000, but we have not had to sell a battery yet."
"Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled."

As for the links, the change in EPA measurements is long overdue, especially with putting annual fuel costs on the label, that should have been done thirty years ago. Higher highway speeds are also a long overdue assumption. They should also stop exempting street legal vehicles such as the Ford F150 from measurements. The changes will reduce rated mileage for all vehicles, not just hybrids. In real life, many people do in fact get the rated mileage or better with the toyota prius, but driving habits are key, mileage drops dramatically as speed increases above 55mph. IRL the cars that get the best gas mileage are all hybrids. Thus if you believe there is a likelyhood of future price shocks to the gasoline supply, and you plan on keeping the same car for a while, a Prius is the best commute car you can get if you plan on doing a lot of driving around a major city with common traffic jams. To tabulate the true fuel cost you must take into account the probability of future fuel price increases, thus fuel costs for all vehicles will be higher than the label because the labeling will still assume constant prices. Hybrids also will have lower overall maintenance costs as the original brake pads can last far longer than a conventional vehicle.

The OP also has some misconceptions about global climate change, and has made a general attack upon the scientific method as well as confounding the ozone problem with global warming. These confusions have been addressed elsewhere and there is no need to reproduce them here. In summary, the greatest sources of uncertainty in current climate models lie in human behavior, anthropogenic global climate change is underway and accelerating, and the science behind these predictions are as solid as that behind gravity. The reason different models predict different temperature increases is that they assume people will do different things with respect to air pollution, but all credible models show a temperature increase of 1 degree Celcius or more over the next hundred years. Climate scientists don't disagree that global climate change is happening, but rather they disagree about how bad it will be. Current models are all excessively optimistic, as they fail to address the fact that oceanic photosynthetic life is less efficient in warmer waters, thus the oceans will be less productive and less effective as a carbon sink.

Here is some basic background reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/Fingerprints.html
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/emissions/usinventoryreport.html

Of course with that out of the way, I don't live on the coast and am not a farmer, so to me the important thing is that laws are passed now preventing the federal government from providing flood relief to coastal areas in the future unless the funds come from taxing production of greenhouse gases. I will find it an amusing irony that Florida is underwater due to their own shortsightedness and ignorance. I just wish Florida was lower so that other coastal areas wouldn't have to suffer too.

MIT has developed an engine that increases efficiency by 30% by taking advantage of the higher compression ratios possible with ethanol/e85. They won't be available in production vehicles until 2010. I want one of those in a plug-in hybrid electric car. Plug in hybrids of this nature could bring complete independence fro foreign oil, and if greater support was made available for demand side management of electricity, they could increase demand for renewable energy from windmills. Unfortunately plug in hybrids will have to wait for the heat/safety problems with lithium batteries to be solved, because of patent issues with the NiMH batteries.

"The oil company Chevron controls key battery technologies and battery manufacturing facilities, through its subsidiary, Cobasys. According to the website ev1.org, during the development of the battery-electric vehicle (BEV) EV1, General Motors made a controlling investment in Ovonics's battery development and manufacturing, with particular interest in the patents and trade secrets controlling the manufacturing of large nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) batteries. This interest was subsequently sold to the oil company Texaco, which was acquired in its entirety by another oil company, Chevron. The "large format" NiMH batteries are no longer available to U.S. electric vehicle converters or lightweight BEV manufactures. The manufacturing unit, Cobasys, is currently declining to manufacture and market these batteries for battery electric automotive use in the US and has shut down (through patent control) Panasonic's large format battery importation to the US. The Cobasys web page concerning transportation applications addresses only large multi-passenger hybrid vehicles. In order to use NiMH batteries without violating Chevron's patents, hybrid automobile manufacturers are required to design vehicles which are at least 50% powered by gasoline; otherwise, they are limited to the use of "D" cell-sized NiMH ("small format") batteries."

I will buy a hybrid for my next car, but not until I can get a plug in flexible fuel version that gets better than 80mpg. (e85 is readily available and cheaper than gas in my area.) My current car will last until then.

Edit: This is my 2^8th+1 post! Breaking the 8bit barrier!
 

forrestroche

Senior member
Apr 25, 2005
529
7
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: forrestroche

Cars of today put out nearly zip compared to even the cars of the 90's..
False. Economy standards have been weakened through the shielding of many more vehicles under the truck exemption. When seen as a whole, the U.S. car and truck fleet of today is less efficient than it was in the 90's.

no, the non-carbon emissions, which is what he must be referring to when he says 'put out nearly zip,' are way down on cars over the past couple of decades.

Those emissions were reduced to vitually nil in the 90's. The concern now, to the extent that there is any, is about carbon (potential negative effects to climate) and efficiency (to reduce demand for an increasingly scarce resource).
 

forrestroche

Senior member
Apr 25, 2005
529
7
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: forrestroche
Originally posted by: Amused
Just your negative spin. Efficiency is up. That's a fact.
Whatever.

Truck efficiency is up.
Car efficiency is up.
Average total fleet efficiency is not up.

efficiency is useful work per unit of energy. and that is up. the engines are doing more work (pushing more weight), and that is why consumption is up as well.

You are correct. I should have used the term "economy."

 

imported_goku

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2004
7,613
3
0
Originally posted by: rivan
I'm 6'5" and about 280 lbs. I drive a V8 SUV. Why? Because it's the only size class that I can sit in, with good posture, and not rub my head on the roof and/or crane my neck to see stoplights. I also need to get a 2-year old and (soon) an infant into and out of the back seats. I tried it with a Taurus (wife's old company car) - horrid experience that was. Her new minivan is much better for the kid, but still terrible for me and my posture.

I'll be quite happy to look at hybrids when one's built for someone my size - something I don't expect for some years to come. Currently the Highlander is the only vehicle that comes close. I'd switch right now if there was a hybrid version of my Sequoia.

Mr. Golsan?
 
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