The Hybrid MYTH!

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: desy
They as in auto manufacturers
I've posted an article previously how they moved a off the lot Ford explorer from 20 MPG to near 40 MPG using off the shelf technology available today for not that much money.
Which would be driven down a lot cheaper by simple economies of scale

Instead of the US spending $300+ billion to attack Iraqis, we should have invested that money into future energy techs. You want to stop terrorist? Don't keep sending money back to the ME where it gets to pay for IEDs. Start taking away the billions we pay to OPEC and they will take care of terrorists. It's all about the money.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: touchmyichi
I'm not going to go into the science of hybrids (which people here will prove you wrong on) but I will say this-

Buying a hybrid sends a message that people are interested in alternative forms of vehicles and fuels. That's something we desperately need to do with global warming becoming an issue (and it IS real, if you don't believe anyone here consult a local professor and they will be happy to prove it to you). At the very least, buying a hybrid is a statement that you care about these issues and wish that manufacturers pay more attention to these issues. Everyone needs to do their part in this huge global issue.

edit: oh yeah and hummers and huge SUV's are absurd for 99% of Americans (hint: how many of these cars do you see in other countries? Do you think that maybe we could do without them if they can?). Completely impractical.

Modern day SUVs that Americans drive emit less pollution than the old crap the 2 billion chinese and indians drive.

 

[unsped]

i drove a prius for a couple days, never broke 35mpg and i drove it reasonably

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Random Variable

Originally posted by: EarthwormJim

Originally posted by: Random Variable
I've driven a Prius for the past 15 months. Generally I average 55 MPG in the summer and 45-50 MPG in the winter. (My personal best is 59.7 MPG over 540 miles.) If the outside temperature drops below 0F, however, the average drops to about 40 MPG.

Why is that? Does the electric motor become that less efficient when cold, or the batteries?

I think it's harder for the batteries to hold a charge when they're cold. But the main reason for the decrease in fuel economy is that the gas engine has to keep running to remain hot enough for the heat to work. The only experience I've had with really cold weather was last winter when during several morning commutes the temperature was like -10F.

low temperatures are unfavorable for a electrochemical cell reaction. and, assuming the entropy of the reaction is negative, a lower temperature reduces entropy, free energy, and the ability of the reaction to occur spontaneously. chemistry FTW

Yeah... maybe it's something like that. But I prefer just looking at the final results and my friend who has a Ford Escape Hybrid has seen that the electric motor doesn't start kickng in until the engine reaches a certain temp.

 

[Arglebargle]

No horse in this race at present, other than it sure seems hotter and hotter here. But on the auto side of things, this is the kind of electric car I can get behind:

http://www.teslamotors.com/

 

[Random Variable]

Originally posted by: unsped
i drove a prius for a couple days, never broke 35mpg and i drove it reasonably

I've never averaged that low between refills, an I've driven the Prius for 15,000 miles. Unless it's really cold outside, it's hard to average less than 45 to 50 MPG (even with a lead foot).

 

[Random Variable]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Random Variable

Originally posted by: EarthwormJim

Originally posted by: Random Variable
I've driven a Prius for the past 15 months. Generally I average 55 MPG in the summer and 45-50 MPG in the winter. (My personal best is 59.7 MPG over 540 miles.) If the outside temperature drops below 0F, however, the average drops to about 40 MPG.

Why is that? Does the electric motor become that less efficient when cold, or the batteries?

I think it's harder for the batteries to hold a charge when they're cold. But the main reason for the decrease in fuel economy is that the gas engine has to keep running to remain hot enough for the heat to work. The only experience I've had with really cold weather was last winter when during several morning commutes the temperature was like -10F.

low temperatures are unfavorable for a electrochemical cell reaction. and, assuming the entropy of the reaction is negative, a lower temperature reduces entropy, free energy, and the ability of the reaction to occur spontaneously. chemistry FTW

You're explanation is probably right. But the reduction in fuel economy is still mainly do to trying to run the heater in really cold weather.

 

[unsped]

is the prius on a treadmill?

 

[Vic]

My issue with hybrids is the smug emissions.

Oh yeah, and I own a Subaru.

 

[1prophet]

How many independent shops (not dealerships or stealerships according to some here )are capable of servicing these hybrids properly?

Are the automobile manufacturers creating a defacto monopoly , since the tooling and training which is a required component of being a dealer selling hybrids, going to hurt the independent shop in the long term?


Anandtech members not withstanding since many of you have the technical ability, think more along the common joe consumer.

 

[unsped]

an issue i would have, in 5 years when these batteries need replacing your resale value is going to go to nill, hybrids seem like disposable cars.

 

[Aftermath]

My next car is going to be a big, cushy, inefficient, slow, V8 sedan. I'm seriously.

I'm not going to restrict myself to buying tin cans, or vehicles loaded with expensive and overcomplicated technology to make the difference of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent on the emission production or oil consumption of the world.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Originally posted by: touchmyichi
I'm not going to go into the science of hybrids (which people here will prove you wrong on) but I will say this-

Buying a hybrid sends a message that people are interested in alternative forms of vehicles and fuels. That's something we desperately need to do with global warming becoming an issue (and it IS real, if you don't believe anyone here consult a local professor and they will be happy to prove it to you). At the very least, buying a hybrid is a statement that you care about these issues and wish that manufacturers pay more attention to these issues. Everyone needs to do their part in this huge global issue.

edit: oh yeah and hummers and huge SUV's are absurd for 99% of Americans (hint: how many of these cars do you see in other countries? Do you think that maybe we could do without them if they can?). Completely impractical.

I'll agree with you on the SUV part, all you need to do is drive down the freeway and look at all the huge SUVs with ONE person in them. But the OP does make some good points about the batteries in Hybrids, you won't end up on top because of the saved fuel costs because of the battery cost. Hybrid technology of some kind is the future but for now they are not worth the money. I have a 1995 BMW 540i gets 17mpg, bought it used for 9500. I won't be losing financially to the Prius driving for probably 10+ years.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Originally posted by: SLEEPER5555
glad to hear everyones opinions and i am glad we can talk about it without getting at each other too much, really nice!

On the diesels i must say i agree, they are much better MPG and i cannot wait for the chrysler/GM co-dev diesel hybrid system, it seems to have real promise on the MPG side but again there is is the added cost (in this case for both diesel and hybrid, plus the much higher price of gas)

hydrogen seems like the best idea long term but there is much work to be done there.

for those who have seen 50 on a prius, did you read the linked stories? what do you make of that?

thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and keeping it calm!

Hydrogen is an excellent technology but IT IS NOT, I repeat IS NOT a source of energy its more of a special battery. For the long term things like solar, wind, and coal (do your research on modern coal technology it has a lot of potential.) are the way to go.

 

[Staples]

People buy hybrids because it labels them, not because they are out to save money.

When has saving the environment ever been cheaper than ruining it? Never.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Max MPG isn't really the point of Hybrids though. What Hybrids do is make Vehicles in various Classes more Fuel Efficient. Everybody can't buy the smallest Car, most(probably) need something larger than a Sub-Compact, Hybrids offer these people a more Fuel Efficient option over non-Hybrids. That's especially true for those who primarily drive in the City.

Off-topic, but what's with the unnecessary capitalization? You seem to randomly capitalize words.

 

[sygyzy]

Every few months, some genius posts a wonderful, revolutionary, and original explanation on why hybrids are dumb, don't offer cost benefits, and increase owner smug rather than reduce environmental smog. Someone hand me a violin and a friggin break.

I don't think there is a hybrid owner out there that thinks he'll make back the price premium from gas savings. People are not stupid. They do it for different reasons:

Gas savings. If my car could go 40MPG instead of 22-25, it means I'd save money on gas. And one thing people don't realize is that when you are buying a hybrid, you are buying a car in your budget, so there is no "premium." Nobody says my budget is $25k but let me spend $30k so I can get a hybrid. People say my budget is $30k and one of the choices is a hybrid. People also want to send the message that we should investigate alternative fuels. Hybrids were created as a middleground between fossil fuels and electric. Until recently, the latter was very slow and had many problems like it needed lots of recharging.

I don't understand the mentality of people who not only criticize hybrids but seem bent on destroying the ideals. It's almost like a roundabout political statement. If you don't like the environment and love Big Oil, go cheer for them. Don't diss people who are trying to make a difference.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Solar is useless. I am part of the solar car team at the University of Minnesota, and we've read studies that, even if a solar panel lasts 20 years (today's tech), it will still be "negative energy." That is, it costs more engery to produce that it gives back. Solar = useless, even though fun.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: sandorski
Max MPG isn't really the point of Hybrids though. What Hybrids do is make Vehicles in various Classes more Fuel Efficient. Everybody can't buy the smallest Car, most(probably) need something larger than a Sub-Compact, Hybrids offer these people a more Fuel Efficient option over non-Hybrids. That's especially true for those who primarily drive in the City.

Off-topic, but what's with the unnecessary capitalization? You seem to randomly capitalize words.

hehe, you're not the first to ask that question.

Emphasis.

 

[JACKHAMMER]

Originally posted by: Trinitron

Originally posted by: rivan
I'm 6'5" and about 280 lbs. I drive a V8 SUV. Why? Because it's the only size class that I can sit in, with good posture, and not rub my head on the roof and/or crane my neck to see stoplights. I also need to get a 2-year old and (soon) an infant into and out of the back seats. I tried it with a Taurus (wife's old company car) - horrid experience that was. Her new minivan is much better for the kid, but still terrible for me and my posture.

I'll be quite happy to look at hybrids when one's built for someone my size - something I don't expect for some years to come. Currently the Highlander is the only vehicle that comes close. I'd switch right now if there was a hybrid version of my Sequoia.

Same here. I am not small and don't fit in a Honda Civic. I drive large vehicles because I fit in them, plain and simple.

Enviro-whackers can fvck off.

You know, I am bigger than that dude and I drive a Mazda 3 w/Stick and i am damn confortable. Its a car not a sofa, you just need to sit in a bunch of different cars. The size of the car typically has NOTHING to do with useable interior driver space. I don't fit in much bigger cars, i was looking at some of the cute-utes and found them much tighter. If I wanted an poor handling box, I certainly would have bought a truck or Crown Vic

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: SLEEPER5555
brown - if you do some searching you will see this is still a disputed "fact"

No, its really not. Data shows that global warming is real, whats "disputed" is whats causing it.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: sandorski
Max MPG isn't really the point of Hybrids though. What Hybrids do is make Vehicles in various Classes more Fuel Efficient. Everybody can't buy the smallest Car, most(probably) need something larger than a Sub-Compact, Hybrids offer these people a more Fuel Efficient option over non-Hybrids. That's especially true for those who primarily drive in the City.

Off-topic, but what's with the unnecessary capitalization? You seem to randomly capitalize words.

hehe, you're not the first to ask that question.

Emphasis.

Unfortunately it's against the rules of the English language to compose your sentences that way. Emphasize your points in a legitimate manner, or else I'm going to sick my gradeschool teacher on you.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: sandorski
Max MPG isn't really the point of Hybrids though. What Hybrids do is make Vehicles in various Classes more Fuel Efficient. Everybody can't buy the smallest Car, most(probably) need something larger than a Sub-Compact, Hybrids offer these people a more Fuel Efficient option over non-Hybrids. That's especially true for those who primarily drive in the City.

Off-topic, but what's with the unnecessary capitalization? You seem to randomly capitalize words.

hehe, you're not the first to ask that question.

Emphasis.

Unfortunately it's against the rules of the English language to compose your sentences that way. Emphasize your points in a legitimate manner, or else I'm going to sick my gradeschool teacher on you.

I don't let the Man(English Language) dictate to Me how to communicate!!!!

Rebel with a Clause!!!! [/rides off on scooter]

 

[randomlinh]

is there any solid data on how much crap cars (commuters) put into the air vs... say our trucking industry (which is quite big) or random misc factories?

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Xyo II

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Its going to be a lot better.

Battery energy density technologies are just around the corner that will triple the energy density of batteries.

This will make hybrid and full electric vehicles much more viable for the average consumer in 5-10 years.

The energy density (and as a result weight and size) of batteries is whats holding hybrid and full electric technology back.

The real question is, when we go full electric, will we be able to produce clean enough energy at the power plant level to actually be of benefit. We need more wind / hydro / solar / geothermal / nuclear power to compensate for the enormous energy demand via electricity that is ahead.

The off-peak energy from the power plants at night (when most people would be charging their cars) would be enough for a lot of cars, and even still, inter combustion engines put out 2x the CO than a coal-burning power plant. I agree though, we need more nuclear power plants, and a better way to use solar energy.

Solar needs to get cheaper. I was driving around Vegas a couple weeks ago, and I didn't see ANY houses that panels on the rooftops. Vegas almost NEVER has cloudy days, and NO ONE uses solar panels? That to me speaks volumes about the current state of solar power, and it's pathetic.