The "I Hate Gamestop" Thread

[exdeath]

*** COUGH *** PC games *** COUGH ***

No speculation needed. Just look over there -->

Microsoft was too abrupt in their approach, and it's difficult to tell where the screaming really came from. Was it the average gamer, or was it the hardcore among us as well as entities like GameStop? Tough to say and it would be mostly speculation. What we do know is, it's less and less a factor.

All MS and Sony need to do is sit back and watch digital sales skyrocket. Then they won't even need to make a case for it. We've already watched this happen, folks (PC games, movies, music). No need to dissect it.

Except physical ownership of a stand alone always works no matter what physical media has been a staple distinguishing feature of consoles from PCs since their debut beginning with cartridges. PC games have generally always been worthless and disposable and non shareable. PS4 vs almost failed Xbone launch showed where consumers stand on the issue.

Back when we were sharing and swapping NES carts, PC software had long already been restricting use and attempting to lock the software to one PC.

Digital only consoles isn't going to fly until the issue of consumer rights and property ownership is embraced by game publishers and/or the pricing model of games changes drastically.

Even before 99 cent mp3s, CDs and DVDs are only $9-19, not $59-$69. So yeah, a lot needs to change. You can't point at $9 CDs turning into 99 cent MP3s and think the same model is going to work with $59 games that are still $59.

Consumers would have laughed at iTunes too if music was still $15 for 5 MP3s that they didn't get to choose.

 

[Anteaus]

I've never understood peoples hatred of gamestop. I've done plenty of business with them for our wii and ds's and never had a problem with them. Saved myself lots of money buying second hand games and peripherals.

That's what Bike was trying to explain though. There will be no second hand market soon, and a store like Gamestop can't survive selling only periherals and other hardware unless they plan to accept profit margins on the order of normal mom and pop stores.

Console gamers absolutely hate when PC games are mentioned in comparison, but over the span of about 5 years the industry not only destroyed the second hand market but forced everyone into digital markets. Just like with consoles, there was a huge backlash and struggle against it as companies like EA and Ubisoft kept messing with the formula, progressing from Starforce Rootkits to securom to activation to always on connectivity. Console gamers didn't give a crap that PC gamers were being bossed around because it didn't affect them, though in reality their own future was being played out on a different platform.

Like others have said, it's not a matter of if but when. MS tried to impliment a system that was very similar to present day Steam, but console gamers understandably rejected it. It is natural to reject what is different and scary. MS scared the crap out of console gamers because unlike PC gamers who spent years experiencing the paradigm shift, MS went cold turkey on them. That was an a**hole move by MS. In the end it, I agree with some of the time tables mentioned above; 5-7 years and console game distribution will be very similar to Steam. Physical discs will still exist, but in smaller and smaller production. The post XB1/PS4 consoles will seal the deal.

The irony is that in spite of horrific nature of DRM, it not only saved PC gaming but created a new golden age of gaming for us. For every AAA title console and PC gamers both see, PC gamers get a bunch of additional titles made by smaller developers, because they no longer have to spend all that money getting discs into stores. It's the gaming equivilent of direct-to-dvd and trust me when I say, there are some amazing games that come out of that.

When the majority of games are purchased on disc in a store, then only the EAs, Ubisofts, and Biowares of the world can afford to compete with each other. When the majority of games are offered digitally in one place, the playing field is suddenly and dramatically more level and even smaller developers can compete. People complain about the rinse, wash, and repeat of franchises like Call of Duty. This is how you fix it. The thing is, you have to get people fully into the digital marketplace before it will work.

Anyways, that's my take based on experience.

 

[purbeast0]

a lot of people giving anecdotal "facts" in this thread.

not surprised that a thread about "hating" something has so much attention though, that seems to be what most people on these forums like to talk about anyways.

as for the "opened used games", the gamestops i've been to do that but it is ONLY for the box on the shelf. i've only purchased one game like this, and it was an older game, and they only had 1 left which was that one, so he walked around the counter (after checking for the sealed copy) and got it off the shelf, then gave me the sleeved copy with the box. had i been paying $60 for a brand new game, to be honest, i probably would have walked out.

 

[BikeJunkie]

Except physical ownership of a stand alone always works no matter what

Really? Last time I scratched my digital copy of BF4 it still worked

As long as you still have ownership of your online account, this really isn't a valid argument, IMO. You don't even need to be connected except for when you acquire the actual content, which is a non-issue for most people anyway.

PC games have generally always been worthless and disposable and non shareable.

Only since keys were introduced (granted, a long time ago). But all that demonstrates is that customers can be pushed away from truly owning the media. If anything, this proves the point that customers can, in fact, be separated from what they think are inalienable ideals/rights.

PS4 vs almost failed Xbone launch showed where consumers stand on the issue.

No, it showed that MS is still the leader in PR nightmares. It went about it all wrong. Like I said, we don't know exactly where the backlash came from: hardcore gamers or the mainstream. But it's not really relevant, because the masses will lead themselves to that trough all by themselves, without the aide of MS. People are already buying their next-gen content through XBL and PSN. Each one of those purchases is one less potential used game sale... and those numbers will do nothing but climb. The only question is how fast.

Digital only consoles isn't going to fly until the issue of consumer rights and property ownership is embraced by game publishers and/or the pricing model of games changes drastically.

Except it's already happening, so... yeah I'm not sure if you're speaking literally of digital-only consoles, in which case I'm not really arguing that point because I don't think the manufacturers/publishers will even see a need in the future to push in that direction. Like I said before, gamers will go there themselves. As we're having this little debate, some suit over at MS is looking over XBL sales of Forza, Battlefield, et al., and thinking to himself "damn... we should have just sat back and let this thing run its course."

 

[BikeJunkie]

console gamers absolutely hate when pc games are mentioned in comparison, but over the span of about 5 years the industry not only destroyed the second hand market but forced everyone into digital markets. Just like with consoles, there was a huge backlash and struggle against it as companies like ea and ubisoft kept messing with the formula, progressing from starforce rootkits to securom to activation to always on connectivity. Console gamers didn't give a crap that pc gamers were being bossed around because it didn't affect them, though in reality their own future was being played out on a different platform... MS scared the crap out of console gamers because unlike PC gamers who spent years experiencing the paradigm shift, MS went cold turkey on them.

jackpot

 

[gothamhunter]

Just to reply on the Xenoblade Chronicles and Metroid Prime thing:

GS has exclusive rights to sell XC, makes limited run
GS eventually starts to run out of copies as people catch on that it's an awesome game
People freak, price skyrockets, $100+ on eBay
GS asks for a reprint at stock prices
GS opens all games, puts $80 used sticker on, sells as used at inflated prices
GS realizes same trend with Metroid Prime Trilogy; pumps up used price to $70

Black Friday comes around, sells both for $50 and $40, respectively.
I ask person behind counter how many of each they have in stock, he says, and I quote, "Oh over 30 of each, we've been waiting for this"

 

[TerryMathews]

How is it even legal that they freaking open games and then sell them to people? That's absurd imo.

Same way you can sell a test driven car as new.

 

[Tweak155]

I don't see digital taking over until it quits matching the physical copy in price. IMO, this is the only reason Steam is so popular. Once it becomes cheaper to go digital over physical, we'll see that big shift. Until then, it will just be a very, very slow change with digital winning in the end.

 

[BikeJunkie]

I don't see digital taking over until it quits matching the physical copy in price. IMO, this is the only reason Steam is so popular. Once it becomes cheaper to go digital over physical, we'll see that big shift. Until then, it will just be a very, very slow change with digital winning in the end.

Were it not for the convenience (and for the time being, tax) factor(s), I'd be inclined to agree with you. While this is anecdotal, it's appropriate to note that I haven't purchased a single physical disc for my next-gen consoles, yet I own six games (not to mention all the F2P). The same is true for my friends and family (who, in total, probably represent 20 - 30 next-gen console owners). While I haven't audited the purchases of all of them, many have commented that they'll never buy a physical disc again. I went to "release night" with several friends/neighbors for the Xbone, and not a single one of them brought a disc home with their console purchase. They were content to go home, set it up, and kick off a couple downloads.

For Christmas, I'm buying a second PS4 for our home and a number of games for my kids. Again, there will not be a single disc purchase, and that's even in the context of a physical gift-giving holiday.

 

[purbeast0]

Were it not for the convenience (and for the time being, tax) factor(s), I'd be inclined to agree with you. While this is anecdotal, it's appropriate to note that I haven't purchased a single physical disc for my next-gen consoles, yet I own six games (not to mention all the F2P). The same is true for my friends and family (who, in total, probably represent 20 - 30 next-gen console owners). While I haven't audited the purchases of all of them, many have commented that they'll never buy a physical disc again. I went to "release night" with several friends/neighbors for the Xbone, and not a single one of them brought a disc home with their console purchase. They were content to go home, set it up, and kick off a couple downloads.

For Christmas, I'm buying a second PS4 for our home and a number of games for my kids. Again, there will not be a single disc purchase, and that's even in the context of a physical gift-giving holiday.

on the opposite side of that, i own both x1 and ps4, and own 3 games. knack and killzone are both discs, and killer instinct is all i have for x1. had there been an option for a physical disc, i would have gone that way with killer instinct. i do not plan on buying any digital games unless they are ONLY available in the digital format. i have no desire to have digital games, and i very very rarely sell games.

 

[BikeJunkie]

i have no desire to have digital games, and i very very rarely sell games.

Ok? So you either see a collector's value in the physical media (a sentimental attachment, if you will) or you're afraid that you'll get shorted/slighted with the digital copy. Regardless of which it is, how representative of the mainstream gaming population do you think you are? How much do you think convenience will play a factor in what the mainstream chooses choose moving forward? Do you think a shift is taking place (or will take place), and if so, how quickly do you think it will move? Honest questions.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Actually...while it may not happen this gen (was curbed by the MS outrage). I am guessing all the game companies will get their wish by next gen. Everything will be DRM'd online all the time and locked to digital only tied to accounts.

Good or bad, they better have it figured out and flawless, because the first time "the casual" player has difficulty getting to their games because of internet and/or server problems, it's game over. Once you remove what made consoles more convenient than PC's, you've just made them PC's..and non tech types don't have patience and will just move on to something else. People have more options than ever and the attention span of knats.

 

[purbeast0]

Ok? So you either see a collector's value in the physical media (a sentimental attachment, if you will) or you're afraid that you'll get shorted/slighted with the digital copy. Regardless of which it is, how representative of the mainstream gaming population do you think you are? How much do you think convenience will play a factor in what the mainstream chooses choose moving forward? Do you think a shift is taking place (or will take place), and if so, how quickly do you think it will move? Honest questions.

i think i'm in the VAST majority of the market. 100% guess but the fact that stores like gamestop and other stores have people lining up on launch night to purchase games, as well as always having people purchasing stuff in them, makes me think this way.

i don't think the convenience of digital is nearly as big as people make it out to be. i could take a 5 minute trip to gamestop to purchase a physical copy, or wait 30 minutes (or however long it takes) to download a game. and on top of that, if the game sucks, or i want to let a friend play it, or bring it to a friends house, i can do that with the physical copy.

the fact that there was a huge backlash about the original x1 concept should say something, and the fact they changed their stance on it should also say something.

i don't think the shift will take a turn any time this gen personally. the infrastructure simply is not there yet to be downloading 45gb for many people who are in the market. just like with anything, you have the vocal minority saying they want something (digital only), but then you have the other 99% of the people who are quiet because they like the way things are.

 

[Tweak155]

Were it not for the convenience (and for the time being, tax) factor(s), I'd be inclined to agree with you. While this is anecdotal, it's appropriate to note that I haven't purchased a single physical disc for my next-gen consoles, yet I own six games (not to mention all the F2P). The same is true for my friends and family (who, in total, probably represent 20 - 30 next-gen console owners). While I haven't audited the purchases of all of them, many have commented that they'll never buy a physical disc again. I went to "release night" with several friends/neighbors for the Xbone, and not a single one of them brought a disc home with their console purchase. They were content to go home, set it up, and kick off a couple downloads.

For Christmas, I'm buying a second PS4 for our home and a number of games for my kids. Again, there will not be a single disc purchase, and that's even in the context of a physical gift-giving holiday.

You only need enough people to support the business, not everyone.

 

[mjaweeka]

i think i'm in the VAST majority of the market. 100% guess but the fact that stores like gamestop and other stores have people lining up on launch night to purchase games, as well as always having people purchasing stuff in them, makes me think this way.

i don't think the convenience of digital is nearly as big as people make it out to be. i could take a 5 minute trip to gamestop to purchase a physical copy, or wait 30 minutes (or however long it takes) to download a game. and on top of that, if the game sucks, or i want to let a friend play it, or bring it to a friends house, i can do that with the physical copy.

the fact that there was a huge backlash about the original x1 concept should say something, and the fact they changed their stance on it should also say something.

i don't think the shift will take a turn any time this gen personally. the infrastructure simply is not there yet to be downloading 45gb for many people who are in the market. just like with anything, you have the vocal minority saying they want something (digital only), but then you have the other 99% of the people who are quiet because they like the way things are.

I completely agree with this. Not only is it currently inconvenient for bluray-sized downloads, but I'd like to see some of the same conveniences of physical media tied in to make the digital market [for consoles] more appealing - "trading in" games for partial credit toward another download, digital lending, and digital rentals (perhaps a subscription-based model). If they could assume the right drm to accomplish this without inconveniencing the consumer, it would personally push me to try it out as someone who is still partial to physical discs.

 

[Wingznut]

I don't understand the "hatred"... I mean, if they have something that you feel is a good deal, then you buy it. If they don't, then don't shop there. Pretty much like any other business, right?

What's to "hate"?

 

[cmdrdredd]

I completely agree with this. Not only is it currently inconvenient for bluray-sized downloads, but I'd like to see some of the same conveniences of physical media tied in to make the digital market [for consoles] more appealing - "trading in" games for partial credit toward another download, digital lending, and digital rentals (perhaps a subscription-based model). If they could assume the right drm to accomplish this without inconveniencing the consumer, it would personally push me to try it out as someone who is still partial to physical discs.

There are three things that keep me from caring about digital console games.

1) I can't trade the game to a friend or let him borrow it.

2) I cannot get an internet connection fast enough to download the game as fast as going 5 minutes down the road to the store and back, then installing the game. The game will install from the disk faster than I can download it even with 50Mb internet speeds. On the PC this is less a problem since games are not 40GB+. It is odd to me how BF4 on PC looks better etc but is less than 15GB total. On ps4 and xb1 it's about 3x that.

3) when my HDD fills up I have to delete a game. What happens when I have the PS8 or something and say "hey I remember really liking this old game called Uncharted but they dont make it anymore. Let me dig out my ps4 and play it" only to find out you cannot download that game anymore. If I had the disk I could pop it in and go.

 

[Wingznut]

i think i'm in the VAST majority of the market. 100% guess but the fact that stores like gamestop and other stores have people lining up on launch night to purchase games, as well as always having people purchasing stuff in them, makes me think this way.

i don't think the convenience of digital is nearly as big as people make it out to be. i could take a 5 minute trip to gamestop to purchase a physical copy, or wait 30 minutes (or however long it takes) to download a game. and on top of that, if the game sucks, or i want to let a friend play it, or bring it to a friends house, i can do that with the physical copy.

the fact that there was a huge backlash about the original x1 concept should say something, and the fact they changed their stance on it should also say something.

i don't think the shift will take a turn any time this gen personally. the infrastructure simply is not there yet to be downloading 45gb for many people who are in the market. just like with anything, you have the vocal minority saying they want something (digital only), but then you have the other 99% of the people who are quiet because they like the way things are.

Also, whether you choose to purchase a disc or download the game, the choice is the same 100% of the time. Some games I will download, because I like the convenience of not having to swap discs and the downside of not being able to sell/trade it isn't a factor. Some games I will buy the disc, because the ability to sell it when I'm done is a factor.

For instance...
Madden. I downloaded it, because by the time I am done with it, it'll be worth a couple bucks at best. For those couple bucks, I'd rather have the convenience of no physical copy.
Ryse. I knew that I'd finish it in ~8 hours, and probably not play it again. Therefore, selling it after I'm done is attractive.

Not sure why others are arguing that either choice is an absolute one.

 

[mjaweeka]

There are three things that keep me from caring about digital console games.

3) when my HDD fills up I have to delete a game. What happens when I have the PS8 or something and say "hey I remember really liking this old game called Uncharted but they dont make it anymore. Let me dig out my ps4 and play it" only to find out you cannot download that game anymore. If I had the disk I could pop it in and go.

This right here is probably my biggest issue right now. I like the convenience of not swapping discs (especially with the new systems being able to switch games much faster), and as someone with a retro game collection I appreciate the availability to replay old games.

I believe people still want to feel they are getting something for their money. Perhaps in time as newer generations grow more purely into digital assets a model like this could really eliminate physical media, but the services offered would have to attract this change past a simple storefront.

 

[bearxor]

To throw my two cents in, I don't like Gamestop. I believe they're going to close eventually, but they're probably good for at least the next decade. I don't shop there. The few times I do go in it's to see what kind of deals they might have on some old DS games. I never buy them because they're never complete. And I never know if they're incomplete because they were traded in that way or the GS threw away the packaging because they didn't want to store it.

The last transaction I did at a GS was taking advantage of their 3DS to 3DSXL trade in. I traded in a pristine 3DS in great packaging with unopened AR cards and all the manuals. They promptly threw all that shit away and put it in a plastic bag and hung it on the wall. I don't know why. I'd imagined they could have charged an extra $10 or so for someone whom wanted the complete experience for a few bucks less.

Obviously digital distribution is the future. But I won't embrace digital distribution on consoles until it's a universal platform and I can be assured that whatever I buy I can use going forward if I change platforms. That's where I think we're headed. Maybe not the next console gen, but certainly the one after. Gamestop's might still exist at that point. But they won't be what we would consider a "GameStop" as it currently is. It will likely exist in name only.

There are a ton of people who demand the quality of blu-ray before streaming. Quality that the internet can never provide from streaming.

Never? You're being awfully absolute there.

 

[Fulle]

Maybe a big reason I hate Gamestop, is that I don't respect their business model... I don't like buying second hand games.

When I'm really enjoying a game, I just can't get the same satisfaction, knowing that I didn't pay in a way that benefits the developer. I feel like we vote with our dollars, and I like the idea that when I buy a new game, that I'm sending a message out that says "I want you to make more stuff like this".

Used games are just a parasite on the gaming market. When you buy one, you're not supporting the companies important to the creation of that game... you're only helping the person or retailer you bought it from.

I'd rather buy a digital copy... especially for indie titles.

 

[exdeath]

Maybe a big reason I hate Gamestop, is that I don't respect their business model... I don't like buying second hand games.

When I'm really enjoying a game, I just can't get the same satisfaction, knowing that I didn't pay in a way that benefits the developer. I feel like we vote with our dollars, and I like the idea that when I buy a new game, that I'm sending a message out that says "I want you to make more stuff like this".

Used games are just a parasite on the gaming market. When you buy one, you're not supporting the companies important to the creation of that game... you're only helping the person or retailer you bought it from.

I'd rather buy a digital copy... especially for indie titles.

What do we do then if we jumped on a system late and physical copies are out of print? Or when a niche game is knocked off the shelf in less than a month to make room for 12 shevles of the next CoD ?

Used games is the only recourse.

I'd love to see new copies of Sega CD Snatcher for $59.99 or Saturn Panzer Dragoon Saga and just competely crash the overpriced eBay reseller collector market.

I'd much rather pay $59 to the developer than $450 to some sleezy reseller for a worn and torn copy. If only...

Working Designs is gone. How can I get a new copy of Lunar 2 and support them? Oh...I can't. Of course I bought them new, that's just an example. There are many games I didn't or couldn't buy or systems I didn't care about until after some games went out of print and games I never heard of. Who is meeting that demand? Not the developers. If you want people to support you, make more than 10 f@%&$ copies and don't stop production after a week.

 

[Anteaus]

What do we do then if we jumped on a system late and physical copies are out of print? Or when a niche game is knocked off the shelf in less than a month to make room for 12 shevles of the next CoD ?

Used games is the only recourse.

I'd love to see new copies of Sega CD Snatcher for $59.99 or Saturn Panzer Dragoon Saga and just competely crash the overpriced eBay reseller collector market.

I can play both sides of this. On the digital side, no game can go out of print as long as the platform is viable and there is a cent to be made. Due to the progression of storage technology, it actually becomes cheaper to store a static amount of data over time. In other words, if a PS4 game comes out today and goes out of print in two years, it will still likely be available on PSN until the platform has become economically disadvantageous to support, which won't likely happen until well into the generation that follows it. This won't solve the question of long term availability, but it does mean that at least for the life of the console all releases will be available all of the time. No more out of print titles.

On the flip side, I agree with you about long term issues. No longer will you be able to stash a system in the closet for 20 years and bring it out for your grandkids. The sad part is that gaming as a collector's hobby is about to be gone. Game developers are more interested in making money today and have absolutely no concern over whether you can use the games once they have moved on to the next thing tomorrow. It's a sad state of affairs but an inevitable one.

Going all digital also means they can ignore parts of DMCA that deal with physical media. I'm pro digital, but like others we need some serious attention given to passing a real digital consumers bill of rights in congress. We need protections to ensure that if we buy a software license digitally that the software will be available for at least 10 years from time of sale and not until the company decides it isn't in their interest.

 

[Fulle]

Currently there's situations where used physical copies are the best option. Especially since, often, for some out of print games, there's not a digital version available.

What will be nice though, is sometime in the future, remembering that older game you want to play, and being able to just buy it digitally... rather than searching for a physical copy, that might not be in great condition, or have an inflated price.

That's where the PS4 and Xbox One are headed. Everything will have a digital copy... just like with our PCs.

 

[exdeath]

But as long as physical copies exist they will be sought after and collectible.

For me to embrace digital I need three things:

1) platform must be ALL digital, because again, if there are physical copies, especially limited print, they will just be that much more desirable. You can't have $60 games AND treat them as disposable. One or the other, but devs want to have their cake and eat it to.

2) consumer rights to own, sell, delete, burn, eat, whatever, the product they are buying or lower the price to that of movie tickets and mp3s.

3) developer must give up DRM rights and unlock the games from the DRM system if they ever stop supporting the infrastructure required for the game to run. Go out of business, ditch the infrastructure, stop selling or supporting the title, whatever, developers should be required by law to either refund the purchase price or patch the game to run without DRM. Otherwise its like a coin on a string, they can just yank it back and say FU at any time. No.