Discussion The Incel issue and ways to fix them.

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
It is because their entire outlook on relationships is toxic. They commonly view relationships as competitions and are obsessed with winning. When a woman plays a competitive game with them they feel challenged in what they feel is their domain. Then when they lose to those women they feel emasculated, because so much of their masculinity is wrapped up in this idea of competition. So, they put up a front that all women should remain in the neat box of 'feminine activities' that does not challenge them.

Eh, I don't disagree with much of this, but I'm not a huge fan of its framing. For one thing, a whole generation of young men didn't just abruptly decide to be shitheads all on their own. We live in a society that teaches these guys that they're losers if they're virgins, that they're losers if they date an unattractive, overweight, trans, or poor woman, and they're bombarded with pop culture that makes it seem like everyone else is living like Caligula. It's really not surprising that they're resentful.

The other thing is that women do this shit just as much as men do it, it just doesn't get as much attention for some reason. Maybe because women are less likely to become violent over it.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
We can barely convince schools to have meaningful sex education instead of abstinence only, I think dating classes are a bit of a reach.

Won't teach lonely people to how to have relationships any more than financial education classes can teach people how to not be poor.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,521
12,816
136
Won't teach lonely people to how to have relationships any more than financial education classes can teach people how to not be poor.
I'm not even saying I think they're a good idea, just that it seems pretty unlikely as far as things go.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,521
12,816
136
Don't recall ever taking financial classes in JR High or High School.
I'm only a few years younger than you, and my high school offered a "consumer math" course. My kid's high school has a required class for financial education (I personally doubt the usefulness for a variety of reasons).
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Eh, I don't disagree with much of this, but I'm not a huge fan of its framing. For one thing, a whole generation of young men didn't just abruptly decide to be shitheads all on their own. We live in a society that teaches these guys that they're losers if they're virgins, that they're losers if they date an unattractive, overweight, trans, or poor woman, and they're bombarded with pop culture that makes it seem like everyone else is living like Caligula. It's really not surprising that they're resentful.

None of that is new either. I could name a number of things that I think has contributed to this whole 'Incel' problem, but if I had to point at one thing it would be that the internet has allowed them to gather and reinforce their already distorted beliefs. They went from a few depressed teens that maybe had one or two friends in high school that reinforced their misanthropy to a community of tens of thousands. Misery feeds misery. Depression feeds depression. It is a feedback loop that ratchets the misanthropy to ever higher levels as it acts as a reward loop for being ever worse.

The other thing is that women do this shit just as much as men do it, it just doesn't get as much attention for some reason. Maybe because women are less likely to become violent over it.
Do what shit? The incel misogyny (or is it misandry their doing?) thing? I've not really seen it, but I also have no reason to say they don't. The thing is if a bunch of lonely and depressed people want to sit around talking about how lonely and depressed they are I don't really care. That is their right. It is not until they start hurting other people that it is a real problem. So, if a bunch of women are also doing it the fact that they are not going around shooting people means it is not really a problem.

People have been depressed pretty much forever, the problem is that they now have both the will and the tools to do real harm to lots of people.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
None of that is new either. I could name a number of things that I think has contributed to this whole 'Incel' problem, but if I had to point at one thing it would be that the internet has allowed them to gather and reinforce their already distorted beliefs. They went from a few depressed teens that maybe had one or two friends in high school that reinforced their misanthropy to a community of tens of thousands. Misery feeds misery. Depression feeds depression. It is a feedback loop that ratchets the misanthropy to ever higher levels as it acts as a reward loop for being ever worse.

Yes, it's relatively new. People are way more isolated and lonely that they were even just a few decades ago. Blaming the internet is nothing but the modern version of blaming video games or rap music. These are not causes, but coping mechanisms, like alcohol, drugs, porn, and a whole host of other bullshit that gets blamed. It's obviously something else because there are lots of places that have the internet that don't have these problems.

Do what shit? The incel misogyny (or is it misandry their doing?) thing? I've not really seen it, but I also have no reason to say they don't.

I hear it all the time. I work next to two women, one of which is married with kids, and the other is single and extremely resentful about it. The comments they make are every bit as toxic as the shit guys say. I also have platonic friends that talk to me about their dating frustration and lonliness, and it's essentially incel shit that isn't called that.

The thing is if a bunch of lonely and depressed people want to sit around talking about how lonely and depressed they are I don't really care. That is their right. It is not until they start hurting other people that it is a real problem. So, if a bunch of women are also doing it the fact that they are not going around shooting people means it is not really a problem.

People have been depressed pretty much forever, the problem is that they now have both the will and the tools to do real harm to lots of people.

I absolutely disagree with that, if people are suffering, I think we as a society have a very serious obligation to do what we can to stop that suffering. Washing your hands of it is just really shitty victim blaming. Are you really suggesting that we're not, as a society, suffering a crisis of isolation, loneliness and depression? Because I think it's very clear that we are.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,173
5,639
146
None of that is new either. I could name a number of things that I think has contributed to this whole 'Incel' problem, but if I had to point at one thing it would be that the internet has allowed them to gather and reinforce their already distorted beliefs. They went from a few depressed teens that maybe had one or two friends in high school that reinforced their misanthropy to a community of tens of thousands. Misery feeds misery. Depression feeds depression. It is a feedback loop that ratchets the misanthropy to ever higher levels as it acts as a reward loop for being ever worse.


Do what shit? The incel misogyny (or is it misandry their doing?) thing? I've not really seen it, but I also have no reason to say they don't. The thing is if a bunch of lonely and depressed people want to sit around talking about how lonely and depressed they are I don't really care. That is their right. It is not until they start hurting other people that it is a real problem. So, if a bunch of women are also doing it the fact that they are not going around shooting people means it is not really a problem.

People have been depressed pretty much forever, the problem is that they now have both the will and the tools to do real harm to lots of people.

I think have the general disdain for other people that InCel's exhibit. There's plenty of women that will tell you how shitty guys are, so they just go home and watch Netflix with their dog. The thing is, its kinda justified due to the rampant amount of shitty behavior that guys exhibit. Which its not all guys, and plenty of women will blame it on guys for the relationship issues when they have issues of their own that also are playing a significant factor.

And you're exactly right. Women going "I don't like people" is not the same as "Fucking bitches, being whores, ruined my life! I'll show them!" before going and murdering people.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
I'm not sure I want to say this and I don't want to give Incels any ideas, but I'm surprised that there is no news on these guys raping young women. Just only those who go on mass murder sprees. That would make more sense then killing.

Note I don't condone rape at all, it is wrong and no one deserves that to happen to them.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Yes, it's relatively new. People are way more isolated and lonely that they were even just a few decades ago.

I honestly don't think they are. I every way that the modern world has pulled us apart it has also brought us together. When I was a young man and the internet was only on campuses and text messaging was a super expensive pager, we were much more isolated.

If you didn't have any friends, you simply didn't have any friends and spent much of your time alone. I grew up in a town that had 15 people between the ages of 5-19 and every single girl in the town was my cousin. I was the misfit. I didn't go to church. I liked heavy metal music and punk instead of country. I had didn't have any friends at all. I lived my life between the covers of the books I could get my hands on. Now the next generation might still live in that tiny town with only a few people their age, and there is still that misfit kid that no one liked, but now that have an entire community they can talk with over voice chat systems about hobbies that they all share a common love of. They can have video calls with people that they can call a friend. Even if it is just a picture on a screen, it is better than your only friend being livestock.
Much of that follows us into adulthood. I am in my 40s and still spend most of my time alone, I'm just not very good at making and maintaining friends, but now I at least have you to argue with. It is a vast improvement.

Blaming the internet is nothing but the modern version of blaming video games or rap music. These are not causes, but coping mechanisms, like alcohol, drugs, porn, and a whole host of other bullshit that gets blamed. It's obviously something else because there are lots of places that have the internet that don't have these problems.

I disagree. The internet is more than just a video game or music style. It allowed us to find others like us. Community has always been a drive force in human society. The Revolutionary war (any of them really) could not have happened if a bunch of like minded people had not gotten together and agreed that they needed to do something. In the past you had to have either a whole lot of people that agreed with something, or a lightning bolt strike of luck to have the right group of people to find each other in the right time and place to make a change. Now, anyone can find a hundred people that agrees with them by typing it into a search engine. This is more than a technology. It is a new society.

I absolutely disagree with that, if people are suffering, I think we as a society have a very serious obligation to do what we can to stop that suffering. Washing your hands of it is just really shitty victim blaming. Are you really suggesting that we're not, as a society, suffering a crisis of isolation, loneliness and depression? Because I think it's very clear that we are.

I both agree and disagree here. I don't turn my head to suffering, I work constantly to help the people around me. I've practically built my whole life on helping those in need. But I also know that no matter how much we do people are going to suffer. Depression and loneliness are a part of the human condition. We can help, but we can not remove it altogether.
Do we have a crisis of isolation, loneliness and depression? I honestly don't know. I don't really think so. I really think we are just better at talking about it and have been given the technology to do so in mass. I can't imagine that we are more isolated now than we were 100 years ago when most people lived on farms.

I honestly think that is the real myth of age, that we all think today is worse than it used to be. The reality if you ask me is that our technology has made almost everything better. We life in a sci-fi wonderland and seem to think it sucks. I think that is because we are naturally disposed to believe that the problems that already solved were a lot easier than the ones we don't yet know the answers to, but we forget that most of those problems where there back then as well, they just had to work though them while pulling their weak legs around because they got polio as a child.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
Navy, sub duty. The best way to get a guy to lower his standards is look him in a ship with nothing but men for 6 months. And then there are also no women for him to harass.
I don't think that Navy will accept those who are not capable of learning discipline.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Let me start with a bit of an explanation. I read this post and didn't know how to respond, I honestly found it shocking. Shocking that someone can look at the same society I see and come to these conclusions. Given how this society has impacted my friends and family, it's very difficult to not take your comments personally, I really needed to remind myself that they are not intended that way. With a week's time to digest everything, I think (hope?) I'm ready to respond in a more constructive manner than if I had just banged something out when I read it. Here goes.

I honestly don't think they are. I every way that the modern world has pulled us apart it has also brought us together. When I was a young man and the internet was only on campuses and text messaging was a super expensive pager, we were much more isolated.

If you didn't have any friends, you simply didn't have any friends and spent much of your time alone. I grew up in a town that had 15 people between the ages of 5-19 and every single girl in the town was my cousin. I was the misfit. I didn't go to church. I liked heavy metal music and punk instead of country. I had didn't have any friends at all. I lived my life between the covers of the books I could get my hands on. Now the next generation might still live in that tiny town with only a few people their age, and there is still that misfit kid that no one liked, but now that have an entire community they can talk with over voice chat systems about hobbies that they all share a common love of. They can have video calls with people that they can call a friend. Even if it is just a picture on a screen, it is better than your only friend being livestock.
Much of that follows us into adulthood. I am in my 40s and still spend most of my time alone, I'm just not very good at making and maintaining friends, but now I at least have you to argue with. It is a vast improvement.

I was probably a little bit sloppy in my original point here. While I still think that we are becoming more socially isolated, I should have been more clear that, even decades ago, we were already quite socially isolated. You mention that you loved heavy metal music and punk which is fascinating to me because much of that music is about frustration and anger at the capitalist/corporate world. It reminds me of the time that Paul Ryan said he liked to listen to Rage Against the Machine while he was working out, and Tom Morello responded that Ryan represented exactly the 'machine' that they were raging against. I don't mean to compare you to that piece of dog shit (Ryan), but there does seem to be a similar obliviousness about the underlying message in the music.

I will concede that, on a superficial level, technology does provide more ways to connect with each other, but it simply cannot come close to satisfying the social needs we have. To illustrate with a personal example, I live 800 miles from my niece. Do I like doing FaceTime with her? Of course I do. But I simply cannot have the kind of relationship with her that I could have if I lived half a block away. So the real question is, why do I live 800 miles from my niece? And the answer is capitalism.

I disagree. The internet is more than just a video game or music style. It allowed us to find others like us. Community has always been a drive force in human society. The Revolutionary war (any of them really) could not have happened if a bunch of like minded people had not gotten together and agreed that they needed to do something. In the past you had to have either a whole lot of people that agreed with something, or a lightning bolt strike of luck to have the right group of people to find each other in the right time and place to make a change. Now, anyone can find a hundred people that agrees with them by typing it into a search engine. This is more than a technology. It is a new society.

To me this is where this post gets really frustrating. Compare society now, in terms of revolutionary movements, to what it was before the internet. From the 19th century abolitionists to the labor movement in the early 20th century and the civil rights movement in the middle of the century, this country has a rich history of revolutions producing real, meaningful change. And those are just the broad strokes, there are tons of other examples like the Women's rights movement, gay rights, anti-war movements, the environmental movement, the list goes on.

Now, I'm not blaming the internet for stifling these kinds of movements (although the ease of surveillance facilitated by the internet certainly can't help), but if you want to argue that the internet makes it easier for activists to connect with each other and produce social change, you'll have to explain why social change has ground to a halt or even moved backward in the last decade. Our schools are re-segregated, our immigration policies are as brutal as ever, labor is in tatters - fighting for even an embarrassing $15 minimum wage, we are fighting, bombing, and killing people, and arming violent regimes all over the world.

I both agree and disagree here. I don't turn my head to suffering, I work constantly to help the people around me. I've practically built my whole life on helping those in need. But I also know that no matter how much we do people are going to suffer. Depression and loneliness are a part of the human condition. We can help, but we can not remove it altogether.
Do we have a crisis of isolation, loneliness and depression? I honestly don't know. I don't really think so. I really think we are just better at talking about it and have been given the technology to do so in mass. I can't imagine that we are more isolated now than we were 100 years ago when most people lived on farms.

It is astonishing that so many people have come to accept depression and loneliness as inevitable. They are not. You say that you don't think we're suffering a crisis of isolation, loneliness, and depression? "Deaths of despair" in this country are at an all time high, the average age of marriage is skyrocketing, birth rates are down, more people are living alone. I would challenge you find a single metric that suggests that we are a happier, less anxious, less stressed society than we used to be.

I honestly think that is the real myth of age, that we all think today is worse than it used to be. The reality if you ask me is that our technology has made almost everything better. We life in a sci-fi wonderland and seem to think it sucks. I think that is because we are naturally disposed to believe that the problems that already solved were a lot easier than the ones we don't yet know the answers to, but we forget that most of those problems where there back then as well, they just had to work though them while pulling their weak legs around because they got polio as a child.

This is a thinly veiled "people aren't as tough as they used to be". There are plenty of medical horror stories in our society today, including people dying because they ration their insulin, the obesity epidemic, asthma caused by our polluted environment, etc.

Whether it's the fault of technology or not, there's no denying that we live in an increasingly unequal society, and I don't think most people grasp the implications of that. Here's a rather unsettling article about a familiar theme: the continuing struggles of the millennial generation.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/millennials-are-screwed-recession/596728/

The toxic combination of lower earnings and higher student-loan balances—combined with tight credit in the recovery years—has led to Millennials getting shut out of the housing market, and thus losing a seminal way to build wealth. The generation’s homeownership rate is a full 8 percentage points lower than that of the Gen Xers or the Baby Boomers when they were the same age; the median age of home-buyers has risen all the way to 46, the oldest it has been since the National Association of Realtors started keeping records four decades ago.

And this is where I go back to where the post started, observing the effects of this society on my family and friends. Young adults with middle class childhoods that have not been able to find careers or establish themselves. They overwhelmingly live at home, are single, and absorb constant signals from society that they are inadequate and unworthy. Because we are a hyper-individualized society, they are ridiculed and shamed. Even the term "incel" is a term of derision and disgust, creating a whole sub-class of human that is emotionally stunted and incapable of attracting an intimate partner.

So my opinion is that school shootings and other mass shootings will continue until we are able to resolve the root of the problem, which is that our economic system produces huge numbers of depressed, isolated, embarrassed, ashamed people.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,340
11,711
136
Darn, I thought this was going to involve doctors and snipping...

Make prostitution legal and regulate the hell out of it to keep pimps and STDs at bay. Then the incels would have to get a job that allows them to afford sex when they desire it.

Like everyone else.


 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Let me start with a bit of an explanation. I read this post and didn't know how to respond, I honestly found it shocking. Shocking that someone can look at the same society I see and come to these conclusions. Given how this society has impacted my friends and family, it's very difficult to not take your comments personally, I really needed to remind myself that they are not intended that way. With a week's time to digest everything, I think (hope?) I'm ready to respond in a more constructive manner than if I had just banged something out when I read it. Here goes.

I try to never take anything personal unless it specifically insults me as a person. We disagree, but I think we both are being honest in our disagreement, and can discuss this rationally. I even think that we are not as far apart in our agreement as it first looks. I think really it is just that I view a lot of this in a much large timespan than you do. I'll explain.


I was probably a little bit sloppy in my original point here. While I still think that we are becoming more socially isolated, I should have been more clear that, even decades ago, we were already quite socially isolated.

My anecdote was from more then 40 years ago. I'm a old geezer. We didn't even have TV because there was no cable TV, and the nearest broadcast didn't reach to us very well. (and beyond that my Aunt would never have allowed children to be inside if the sun was shining! We were all but kicked out of the door by sunrise.)

You mention that you loved heavy metal music and punk which is fascinating to me because much of that music is about frustration and anger at the capitalist/corporate world.
I think you are mistaking me. I'm not all about capitalism or the corporate world. I just view technology from a large historical standpoint. I think that most of our technology has made our world a much better place. It is the general technology I'm talking about, not the specific platforms or companies that run it.

I will concede that, on a superficial level, technology does provide more ways to connect with each other, but it simply cannot come close to satisfying the social needs we have.
No, but in many, many cases it is all we have, and go back 30ish years and we would not have had even that, and the problems that separate us were still there. It is not a perfect solution, but like most of our technology it is better then what we had before.

To illustrate with a personal example, I live 800 miles from my niece. Do I like doing FaceTime with her? Of course I do. But I simply cannot have the kind of relationship with her that I could have if I lived half a block away. So the real question is, why do I live 800 miles from my niece? And the answer is capitalism.
Capitalism is not the only reason, it might be a reason, and it might even be your reason, but people have been separated throughout the history of mankind. Your plight is no different from a 15th century peasant that was pressed into a lords military, or a 19th century farmer that had to move to the city when the crops failed. If you didn't have that technology you would probably have never seen your niece at all. You would know nothing about her but what you got from your sibling in a few letters a year, if you were both lucky enough to be literate.

To me this is where this post gets really frustrating. Compare society now, in terms of revolutionary movements, to what it was before the internet. From the 19th century abolitionists to the labor movement in the early 20th century and the civil rights movement in the middle of the century, this country has a rich history of revolutions producing real, meaningful change. And those are just the broad strokes, there are tons of other examples like the Women's rights movement, gay rights, anti-war movements, the environmental movement, the list goes on.
All those movements took the better part of a century from the start of the movement to it's fruition, mainly because it took that long for the idea to spread and people to organize into a critical mass. The abolitionist movement was argued about in the drafting of the US Constitution. Women's Suffrage took 80 years to get a foothold in the US. Today a movement can start, sweep the nation, and get a law changed in a year. All because we can spread ideas, locate the people that agree, and organize them into an effective political caucus in a single afternoon.

Now, I'm not blaming the internet for stifling these kinds of movements (although the ease of surveillance facilitated by the internet certainly can't help), but if you want to argue that the internet makes it easier for activists to connect with each other and produce social change, you'll have to explain why social change has ground to a halt or even moved backward in the last decade.
It hasn't. That 'going backwards' might be distasteful to you and I, but they are a movement that is creating change. Progressive movements are not the only movement.

The other answer is that one problem all movements have is that there are simply too many of them, they can organize to easily and spread so fast that they often end up with multiple ones competing against each other. Do we want more nuclear power plants, or are they a danger to the environment, or do we need so solve the storage problem first (and where to we build them when every proposal ends up with an organization to oppose that location)? Do we want wind power, or are they an eye blight (an actual campaign in the West Texas area)? I could go on and on. The problem with the internet enabling such reform is that it works for both sides fairly evenly. You no longer need to be absolutely passionate about it to get heard. Sometimes too much ease is actually detrimental.


It is astonishing that so many people have come to accept depression and loneliness as inevitable.
That is because at a very biological level it is. There has always been, and probably always will be, depression and loneliness because it is a part of our physiological makeup.

"Deaths of despair" in this country are at an all time high, the average age of marriage is skyrocketing, birth rates are down, more people are living alone. I would challenge you find a single metric that suggests that we are a happier, less anxious, less stressed society than we used to be.
I don't know what you call 'deaths of despair'. I don't know of any such metric. If you are talking about suicide then you are flat out wrong.
Marriage age is up, but for the most part that is just different life choices. People are not getting married, but they are not really being single either (at least in the US). They are just choosing to not get married. People do not put the same stock in marriage as they used to.
Having children later in life is actually linked to a metric of being happier. People tend to have more children when they are depressed then when they are not (there are various reasons for this, but the important thing to know is that having children is actually detrimental to most people's happiness in at least for the short term).
As for the metric, I would say it matter a whole lot on what time frame you are looking at and who you are looking at. If you are a gay male, person of color, or pretty much any minority, then the metrics are outstanding. You are more likely to be happy today than any time in the history of the world, and while we call them minorities, they make up the vast majority of the worlds population. Overall for humanity the world is a hell of a lot better then it used to be. Now if we can just keep from destroying it.

This is a thinly veiled "people aren't as tough as they used to be".
This is not 'people aren't as tough as they used to be' this is 'they are exactly the same as they always were'. We have always complained about our current problems and forgot that those problems are the same ones we have always had, only we used to have even others. We have a very short memory.

There are plenty of medical horror stories in our society today, including people dying because they ration their insulin, the obesity epidemic, asthma caused by our polluted environment, etc.
Insulin was not widely available until 1978. Obesity has replaced starvation, nearly 18 million people died of starvation in the 1940's worldwide. Pollution based asthma has replaced dysentery. None of this is new. We have always lived with our ills, and if anything we are much better at treating them in a way that allows for a relatively normal life.

Whether it's the fault of technology or not, there's no denying that we live in an increasingly unequal society, and I don't think most people grasp the implications of that. Here's a rather unsettling article about a familiar theme: the continuing struggles of the millennial generation.

Overall humans are more equal today then they have been in almost all of history. It takes a very, very narrow view to believe that we are more unequal today than in the past. Do you really believe that the different between a middle class man, or hell even a lower class black woman, compared to that of a billionaire is greater than that of a surf from a king in say 17th century France?

There was more to your post, but really it all comes to that last sentence. You believe that social inequity is too high, and because of that you think that all of societies ills are caused by it. I agree that more equality would help, I just think it is only high compared to what we had hoped for, because historically we are all astoundingly equal. What you are really talking about is being disappointed that we are not living up to our expectations, and with that I can agree. I had hoped more for all of us too. But lets not lose sight of all we have accomplished. For most of us we live in a near utopia compared to just about any time period in the past.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
Thanks!!!! for the video link. And like I said in another thread, I could have came close to ending up as one.
Surely you don't believe all that self loathing crap she was spouting, do you? Jesus, she almost sounded like Moonbeam. Apparently something inside her drives her to self analysis and she noticed she has self destructive tendencies within her, which, having seen them for what they are, she avoids feeding and reinforcing on the internet. The only real difference between what she is saying, and she can't give a reason why people do this, is that I believe what she sees in Incels and herself, I see universally.

The Incel problem is just a subset of a universal disease. And, as she amply suggests, those who have that disease are immune to knowing it.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
I think you are mistaking me. I'm not all about capitalism or the corporate world. I just view technology from a large historical standpoint. I think that most of our technology has made our world a much better place. It is the general technology I'm talking about, not the specific platforms or companies that run it.

In what ways is it better? How are you measuring?

Capitalism is not the only reason, it might be a reason, and it might even be your reason, but people have been separated throughout the history of mankind. Your plight is no different from a 15th century peasant that was pressed into a lords military, or a 19th century farmer that had to move to the city when the crops failed. If you didn't have that technology you would probably have never seen your niece at all. You would know nothing about her but what you got from your sibling in a few letters a year, if you were both lucky enough to be literate.

The separation is not the issue. The issue is that after my sister moved 800 miles away, we should have transitioned to a more distant emotional relationship that's more appropriate for the physical distance between us. We each should have established new intimate familial relationships. But that didn't happen.

All those movements took the better part of a century from the start of the movement to it's fruition, mainly because it took that long for the idea to spread and people to organize into a critical mass. The abolitionist movement was argued about in the drafting of the US Constitution. Women's Suffrage took 80 years to get a foothold in the US. Today a movement can start, sweep the nation, and get a law changed in a year. All because we can spread ideas, locate the people that agree, and organize them into an effective political caucus in a single afternoon.

I mean, sure, you can tie any movement to antecedents and contemporary efforts. The abolitionist movement, broadly speaking, predates the American Revolution and to this day we have people in bondage. Women's Sufferage has a similarly long arc, and even today women are underrepresented in governing bodies and underpaid in the workplace. But when I talk about the abolitionist movement, I'm talking about the powerful movement that swept the US in the 1850s and culminated in the Civil War. When I talk about the labor movement I'm talking about the violent clashes between workers and police forces in early 1900s, and then again in the '30s. There is no analogue to any of these movements today. People march behind barricades under the watchful eye of heavily armed police, and then go home and nothing happens.

Can you give an example of a movement that has "swept the nation" and changed laws in a year?

It hasn't. That 'going backwards' might be distasteful to you and I, but they are a movement that is creating change. Progressive movements are not the only movement.

This is absurdly reductionist, it's only possible to view social change in this manner if you abandon any sense of morality. The re-segregation of public schools, the re-criminalization of abortion, the expansion of American military influence around the globe all represent significant steps backward from gains that were made by the civil rights, women's, and anti-war movements in the '50s and '60s.

The other answer is that one problem all movements have is that there are simply too many of them, they can organize to easily and spread so fast that they often end up with multiple ones competing against each other. Do we want more nuclear power plants, or are they a danger to the environment, or do we need so solve the storage problem first (and where to we build them when every proposal ends up with an organization to oppose that location)? Do we want wind power, or are they an eye blight (an actual campaign in the West Texas area)? I could go on and on. The problem with the internet enabling such reform is that it works for both sides fairly evenly. You no longer need to be absolutely passionate about it to get heard. Sometimes too much ease is actually detrimental.

The problem is that people are just too divided between all the various movements that they're supporting? Or are they on Facebook, Instagram, and internet forums, posting away with absolutely no real-world consequence?

That is because at a very biological level it is. There has always been, and probably always will be, depression and loneliness because it is a part of our physiological makeup.

This is like if you dismissed the Spanish Flu in the 1919 because people have white blood cells so viruses are part of our physiological makeup.

I don't know what you call 'deaths of despair'. I don't know of any such metric. If you are talking about suicide then you are flat out wrong.

"Diseases of despair" is apparently the proper term, and it refers collectively to suicide, drug overdose, and alcoholic liver disease.

Marriage age is up, but for the most part that is just different life choices. People are not getting married, but they are not really being single either (at least in the US). They are just choosing to not get married. People do not put the same stock in marriage as they used to.
Having children later in life is actually linked to a metric of being happier. People tend to have more children when they are depressed then when they are not (there are various reasons for this, but the important thing to know is that having children is actually detrimental to most people's happiness in at least for the short term).

Yes, the rate of single people in the US is increasing, and it's especially increasing among young people.

As for the metric, I would say it matter a whole lot on what time frame you are looking at and who you are looking at. If you are a gay male, person of color, or pretty much any minority, then the metrics are outstanding. You are more likely to be happy today than any time in the history of the world, and while we call them minorities, they make up the vast majority of the worlds population. Overall for humanity the world is a hell of a lot better then it used to be. Now if we can just keep from destroying it.

Really? I think that Black Americans were doing quite a bit better 40 years ago than they are today. There is a narrow section of LGBTQ people that are doing better than they were before Stonewall, but when you look at LGBTQ people at lower incomes, you get a very different picture. I would not, for example, want to be a trans woman in North Philly or Camden or Brazil. And frankly, the environmental destruction that you refer to is a direct consequence of the technology that you're celebrating.

This is not 'people aren't as tough as they used to be' this is 'they are exactly the same as they always were'. We have always complained about our current problems and forgot that those problems are the same ones we have always had, only we used to have even others. We have a very short memory. Insulin was not widely available until 1978. Obesity has replaced starvation, nearly 18 million people died of starvation in the 1940's worldwide. Pollution based asthma has replaced dysentery. None of this is new. We have always lived with our ills, and if anything we are much better at treating them in a way that allows for a relatively normal life.

We didn't have an obesity epidemic before 1978, and 95% of diabetes cases are type 2. Obesity replaced starvation? Dysentery and cholera are associated with poor living conditions, untreated sewage etc. There is little doubt in my mind that if we continue to deteriorate as a society, those illnesses will see a comeback.

Overall humans are more equal today then they have been in almost all of history. It takes a very, very narrow view to believe that we are more unequal today than in the past. Do you really believe that the different between a middle class man, or hell even a lower class black woman, compared to that of a billionaire is greater than that of a surf from a king in say 17th century France?

I have no idea how a 17th century French surf lived, I don't imagine it was pleasant, not do I imagine it was pleasant getting slaughtered by Genghis Kahn. I don't mean to assert that preindustrial or precapitalist people didn't experience suffering, what I reject is the idea that industrialization and technology have given us a "near utopia" as you put it.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
Surely you don't believe all that self loathing crap she was spouting, do you? Jesus, she almost sounded like Moonbeam. Apparently something inside her drives her to self analysis and she noticed she has self destructive tendencies within her, which, having seen them for what they are, she avoids feeding and reinforcing on the internet. The only real difference between what she is saying, and she can't give a reason why people do this, is that I believe what she sees in Incels and herself, I see universally.

The Incel problem is just a subset of a universal disease. And, as she amply suggests, those who have that disease are immune to knowing it.
Well I haven't watched the video link yet. But I don't do any self loathing anyway at all.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
Well I haven't watched the video link yet. But I don't do any self loathing anyway at all.
When you said: "Thanks!!!! for the video link.", I assumed you had watched it and were expressing gratitude for the content.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,650
5,224
136
Let's look to history for answers.

Let's start a land war and conscript all the desperate and the angry males.

A bunch of them get killed.

War ends with a surplus of women in the population.

All the survivors are shell shocked at the horror and carnage, and just want to lead peaceful lives and make babies.

Problem solved.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,679
6,195
126
When you assume you only make an ass out of U and ME!!!
On the contrary, I assumed that you would have the sense to thank somebody for something you felt was of value to you, not some unread link that might infact insult everything you believe. I like to assume that people have sense but I can cross you off that list if you request.

I simply can't believe it was a foolish to assumed you read a link that you thanked somebody for providing. Perhaps somebody besides yourself can convince me. But this seems to me so trivially obvious it's not worth discussing.

Why not say if you watched and what you think and do it honestly.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,617
5,311
136
Eh, I don't disagree with much of this, but I'm not a huge fan of its framing. For one thing, a whole generation of young men didn't just abruptly decide to be shitheads all on their own. We live in a society that teaches these guys that they're losers if they're virgins, that they're losers if they date an unattractive, overweight, trans, or poor woman, and they're bombarded with pop culture that makes it seem like everyone else is living like Caligula. It's really not surprising that they're resentful.

The other thing is that women do this shit just as much as men do it, it just doesn't get as much attention for some reason. Maybe because women are less likely to become violent over it.
The fundamental issue I see is that relationships have no value anymore. Back in the dark ages (before social media) a young man or woman had a small number of possible mates. Those were people that they actually met and spoke with, they interacted. Developing that relationship took time, it was an investment, it had value. Now young people shop for mates on line, try them on, and return them if they aren't everything the shopper wants. Those relationships have no value, no one is invested in them. Why bother with a date that isn't exactly what you want? There are ten thousand more to choose from.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
On the contrary, I assumed that you would have the sense to thank somebody for something you felt was of value to you, not some unread link that might infact insult everything you believe. I like to assume that people have sense but I can cross you off that list if you request.

I simply can't believe it was a foolish to assumed you read a link that you thanked somebody for providing. Perhaps somebody besides yourself can convince me. But this seems to me so trivially obvious it's not worth discussing.

Why not say if you watched and what you think and do it honestly.
Well you did assumed correctly that I do indeed have the good sense to thank those who have done things of value to me. But however I was merely advising you to be mindful of just assuming anything at all about people.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |