Ugh. Did I miss something? Are Bay-Trail Tablet chips 32-bit only and tablets do lock custom OS install?
Suddently I lost all interest in this product.
Locked uefi like winRT tablets? Not being able to install linux is an instant deal breaker.
Plus the fact that you can use a 64-bit tablet with AMD Temash, you cannot with Intel Baytrail.
The problem is the Z3770 lacks SATA or PCI-E which are both deactivated to reach the lower TDP for tablets. If you go up the range TDP and power consumption looks to be higher(looking at leaked specs of the Bay Trail Celerons and Pentiums),due to more enabled functionality and probably less strict binning,and the use of cheaper PCB components for the reference boards not optimised to save every watt consumed. Remember,how much this effects other desktop and mobile parts(just look at motherboards for example!).
Hence I expect,that you might find Baytrail SFF and sub-notebook systems are not exactly the same animal as the the tablet version,especially with the 15W TDP Jaguar chips actually being a bit better in reality(when it comes to power consumption and cooling) than what the TDP suggests.
Moreover,cheap notebooks have plastic bodies which are poor for heat dissipation,so I would still expect active cooling for the sub-notebook systems based on it. With low end SFF desktops,you see quite a few low end Celeron and Bobcat based systems ATM,so I expect as time progresses you will see both Bay Trail desktop and Jaguar based versions,as they both should consume less power and be easier to cool than their predecessors.
Ugh. Did I miss something? Are Bay-Trail Tablet chips 32-bit only and tablets do lock custom OS install?
Suddently I lost all interest in this product.
Sigh @ Microsoft. What's with this 32-bit crap still? Seriously - I am not gonna buy a x86 device in second decade on 21st century with 32-OS. It does not matter one bit - but they just lost one licence sale.The chips are 64-bit capable, but apparently Windows 8.1 only supports "Connected Standby" in 32 bit.
No one cares about PCIe on a tablet, Sata is minimal importance too. Really? Kabini is not power gated for PCIe and sata?
I don't doubt that things will be different when you get to the desktop but kabini is rarely going to compete with baytrail on the desktop where even the smallest systems have adequate cooling for 35 watt tdp's. They will just throw in a pentium/celeron which will still offer better performance than kabini (looking at the toms review which compared kabini to a mobile pentium) or baytrail (whose graphics are still sub ironlake level).
That's the cooler intel shipped to techreport for the desktop emulation system of the i7-4950. That will fit in almost any desktop and can dissipate 45 watts easy.
Intel lists the part’s SDP (scenario design power) at 2W, but leaked data suggests the TDP will be 7W when Turbo Boost (rumored to be 2.4GHz) kicks in.
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...pearance-in-toshiba-8-inch-windows-8-1-tabletAs a result, while the Encore is still one-handable, it verges on being too chunky. We’ll have to wait for a teardown to find out whether the Encore’s extra volume is a side effect of Toshiba not having Apple’s manufacturing expertise, or whether it’s necessitated by Bay Trail’s beefier cooling and battery requirements. Performance-wise, the Encore isn’t great, with lots of stuttering and sporadic UI slowdowns. Toshiba says this is due to the Encore requiring further driver optimizations, but given the GPU is a fairly well-known entity (the HD 4000 GPU from Ivy Bridge), I am not completely convinced.
Ryan Shrout - PC Perspectivr said:So I played with the ASUS Transformer T100 based on Bay Trail tonight. Even better than expected. Silky smooth.
Anyone read the Extremetech review?
It's not so rosy as the Anandtech one:
Anyone read the Extremetech review?
It's not so rosy as the Anandtech one:
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...pearance-in-toshiba-8-inch-windows-8-1-tablet
S800 uses TSMC's HP process and not HPM.
And i dont understand why people bring up Jaguar. It was obvious since months that Jaguar is not a low power CPU architecture and that the sweet spot is around 15W and not 5W.
Temash is not even close to be competitve. A DualCore 1GHz SoC with a TDP of 3,9W is to slow when everyone around them can bring nearly twice the performance for the same or a little more power (Tegra 4 with A15 has 5W with 1,4GHz on all cores).
Hm, thats just an article from a week ago. All of the tests yesterday put Bay Trail-T around 1-2.5W in CPU-intensive tasks and thats with 2.4GHz Turbo. Also, where their leaked data comes from? Bay Trail-M (notebooks) has 4.5-7.5W TDPs so the tablet models should have quite a bit lower TDPs.
They apparently confused Bay Trail-M with Bay Trail-T. Some noobs as usual. Bay Trail-M is rated with up to 7.5W.
I don't quite think you get my point. Kabini uses massive amounts of power compared to baytrail for comparable CPU performance and superior GPU performance. Yes I have seen the benchmarks, 15w kabini is too slow to play almost all modern 3d games. Atom is much too slow but considering its market and power use its acceptable.
Sata a bit of a letdown but PCIe on a Soc as weak as kabini is a bit of a waste. Kabini's CPU isn't really powerful enough to power a lot of games. IMO kabini should have used dual channel RAM instead (increase in igp performance).
In a cheap notebook sata support will matter, but in ultraportables PCIe probably isn't going to be used.
By the time you drop down to the a6-1450 or a4-1200 CPU performance is really weak (lets not forget that 1 ghz jaguar is worse than 1.6 ghz bobcat), GPU no longer holds an advantage, and we are still using the same as or more power. Not seeing any advantage there.
I'm saying this is significant because this effectively writes AMD out of the tablet x86 market. For cheap notebooks, Baytrail basically offers bobcat gpu performance with kabini CPU performance and much lower power envelopes. Kabini was good for netbooks, baytrail is great. Kabini still has a bit of a market in low cost, low performance notebooks but baytrail takes netbook (because this SOC will easily run without active cooling vs 15 watt soc with active cooling) leaving kabini between pentium/i3 SV (high energy, higher performance, similar though more expensive prices) and haswell ULV (low energy, higher performance, expensive). Haswell ULT takes the high end, i3/pentium takes the low and clunky end and baytrail takes the ultra small form factor section. Where does that leave kabini?
The problem is the Z3770 lacks SATA or PCI-E which are both deactivated to reach the lower TDP for tablets. If you go up the range TDP and power consumption looks to be higher(looking at leaked specs of the Bay Trail Celerons and Pentiums),due to more enabled functionality and probably less strict binning,and the use of cheaper PCB components for the reference boards not optimised to save every watt consumed. Remember,how much this effects other desktop and mobile parts(just look at motherboards for example!).
Hence I expect,that you might find Baytrail SFF and sub-notebook systems are not exactly the same animal as the the tablet version,especially with the 15W TDP Jaguar chips actually being a bit better in reality(when it comes to power consumption and cooling) than what the TDP suggests.
Moreover,cheap notebooks have plastic bodies which are poor for heat dissipation,so I would still expect active cooling for the sub-notebook systems based on it. With low end SFF desktops,you see quite a few low end Celeron and Bobcat based systems ATM,so I expect as time progresses you will see both Bay Trail desktop and Jaguar based versions,as they both should consume less power and be easier to cool than their predecessors.
No one cares about PCIe on a tablet, Sata is minimal importance too. Really? Kabini is not power gated for PCIe and sata?
I don't doubt that things will be different when you get to the desktop but kabini is rarely going to compete with baytrail on the desktop where even the smallest systems have adequate cooling for 35 watt tdp's. They will just throw in a pentium/celeron which will still offer better performance than kabini (looking at the toms review which compared kabini to a mobile pentium) or baytrail (whose graphics are still sub ironlake level).
That's the cooler intel shipped to techreport for the desktop emulation system of the i7-4950. That will fit in almost any desktop and can dissipate 45 watts easy.
It'll be lower, but not much lower.Hm, thats just an article from a week ago. All of the tests yesterday put Bay Trail-T around 1-2.5W in CPU-intensive tasks and thats with 2.4GHz Turbo. Also, where their leaked data comes from? Bay Trail-M (notebooks) has 4.5-7.5W TDPs so the tablet models should have quite a bit lower TDPs.
So, you have a 15W TDP CPU drawing 6W -> therefore the 2.5W Z3770 probably has TDP of 6.25W. I think this is a fair calculation, as Intel refuse to say what the true TDP is.Once again, looking at SoC power however the Atom Z3770 pulls around 2.5W in this test. Looking at the increase in platform power for the A4-5000 here, I'm assuming that the equivalent data for AMD would put Kabini in the 6W range.
You - and only you - keep mentioning Tegra 4. Who actually cares for that product? nobody +1. Its not selling, its not going to sell. Tegra 3 was a smart move. When NV launches Tegra 5 its perhaps interesting again, but until then nothing of interest happening from there.
Jaguar and its derivative is an interesting product because it sells in millions in laptops and soon consoles. TSMC HPM process is interesting because it aparantly works great for the S800. It might be able to push temash to be more competitive for the tablet market.
Hm, who cares about Tegra4? I guess people who want to buy tablets with a higher resolution than 720p?
And Tegra 4 is competition to BayTrail. The only one besides S800.
Sry, but what? Jaguar is interesting because companies use it in a 100W envolpe? I hope they do a Tablet with this kind of power. D:
Show us a Tablet or Smartphone with Temash. Then we can start to bring up Jaguar.
The PCIE bit is fans of a certain company grasping at straws to mock intel. Bay Trail T lacks PCIe but Bay Trail M and Bay Trail D do both have it, in fact. Bay Trail T is designed for 1-2W Tablets, something that AMD *not surprisingly* has no product for. Life's rough when AMD has no product that can sell in any product segment, I guess - I mean the counter arguments involve macbook air (a product that uses core i5) and Kabini (a 20W chip...yeah...)
I mean really, who the EFF needs PCIe in a 1W tablet.
Sigh @ Microsoft. What's with this 32-bit crap still? Seriously - I am not gonna buy a x86 device in second decade on 21st century with 32-OS. It does not matter one bit - but they just lost one licence sale.
Thanks for info anyway. I was not aware of that.
Baytrail-M and D will have 64 bit Windows OS support right out of the gate. Based on the articles I've seen today it seems that Baytrail-T will be getting 64 bit Windows around January.
This. It is quite obvious to me (and not some others) that Bay Trail T is aimed for a market segment for which 64 bit does not matter. [64 bit is advantageous beyond 4GB of RAM]. PCIE does not matter.
Let's be clear that this chip is designed for tablets around 100-300$. Who the heck cares about 64 bit and PCIE in that market segment? What, is someone going to put a SATA SSD on a 7 inch tablet? Give me a break.
Bay Trail D and Bay Trail M are the answers for those that want those technologies. Bay Trail has three tiers of products for tablets, desktops, and mobile. T is the 2W tablet part, 64 bit does not matter. None of these tablets will be using 4GB, much less *more* than 4GB which is where 64 bit becomes advantageous.
ever heard of m-sata or sata express?
Yeah good luck with putting that in a 2W 7 inch tablet. Bay Trail D and Bay Trail M both support PCIE and 64 bit. Bay Trail T doesn't because it doesn't need to, it is designed for 100-300$ tablets. M-sata does not matter in a 2 Watt tablet, all such tablets use NAND and NAND only. There is no iPad with a SSD. There is no Nexus 7 or Nexus 10 with SSDs. You see where i'm going with this? You don't put SSDs in 2W tablets, it doesn't make sense - They do not use SSDs. They do not use SATA Express.
If you want those, get Bay Trail D or Bay Trail M, they both support it because they're designed for laptops and desktops. Bay Trail T is not designed for laptops where SATA matters.
If you're trying to tell me that SSDs with PCIE matter in a 100-200$ tablet designed for a 2W power envelope, have fun explaining that one. It matters in ultrabooks and laptops. It does not matter in 200$ tablets. This is aside from the fact, that as I mentioned, Bay Trail D/M both support PCIe because (gasp) they're not 2W tablet chips. See how that works?
The problem I'm having with this argument just now is that the only two prices we've seen so far are $330 and $350. With rather underwhelming specs it has to be said.
I do wonder just how heavily binned the Z3770 is and if this Z3470 is going to be the common chip by far.