The Intel Atom Thread

[dbcoopernz]

Isn't the new surface pro going to have 8gb of ram? Surely other 64bit windows tablets will follow in its wake.

 

[erunion]

I don't get it. Isn't the Surface Pro running Windows 8 64-bit? If so then doesn't it support Connected Standby? If it does then why does Intel (or the press?) puts the blame on MS?

It doesn't.

 

[Shivansps]

So you're telling me a user should care because you're a developer. How the hell does that affect me as a user? Give me a break please. Whether these machines are 32 bit or 64 bit you still have to code 32 bit for legacy reasons if you're a developer. An end user really doesn't give a flying EFF.

The RAM is 4GB or less in all Bay Trail T SKUs therefore it doesn't freaking matter. It does not change the user experience, period. Especially with most Bay Trail T SKUs being 2GB RAM only. Seeing as the Surface Pro has 8GB RAM configurations I can conclude that it is using a 64 bit OS, anyway.

You cant address more than 2GB of ram to a process in 32bit Windows, thats why 32-bit programs have access up to 4GB of ram if running on 64bit Windows. It matters, and a lot, even with just 4GB of ram.

 

[blackened23]

You cant address more than 2GB of ram to a process in 32bit Windows, thats why 32-bit programs have access up to 4GB of ram if running on 64bit Windows. It matters, and a lot, even with just 4GB of ram.

Yeah this is going to matter a ton when most BT-T SKUs are 2GB. Oh wait? And this does not affect the user experience either way. You're not using a Bay Trial-T SKU to do photoshop. Please.

Besides which if you're a developer YOU ARE GOING to code in 32 bit, period.

 

[monstercameron]

Yeah this is going to matter a ton when most BT-T SKUs are 2GB. Oh wait? And this does not affect the user experience either way. You're not using a Bay Trial-T SKU to do photoshop. Please.

Besides which if you're a developer YOU ARE GOING to code in 32 bit, period.

blind assumptions to me.

 

[Sweepr]

Nathan Brookwood analyst from Insight 64 asked Intel about the lack of 64-bit support at launch, and it turns out that Intel doesn’t have it, at least not in the first batch of Bay Trail parts.

Intel plans to support Windows 8.1 32bit version for the rest of the year and it said that support for the 64-bit version comes in the first half of 2014.

64-bit Windows 8.1 support for Bay Trail-T in H1/2014.

 

[Shivansps]

Yeah this is going to matter a ton when most BT-T SKUs are 2GB. Oh wait? And this does not affect the user experience either way. You're not using a Bay Trial-T SKU to do photoshop. Please.

Besides which if you're a developer YOU ARE GOING to code in 32 bit, period.

It matters so little that Office has 64 bit builds too, is not strange for a app to go over 2GB howdays. On Android it may no matter, but on Windows it does.

I fail to see the point about a dev coding for 32 bits or not, your 32bit program can use a maximum of 2GB of ram under 32 Bit Windows and 4GB under 64 bits Windows, even 32bits apps are affected.

 

[blackened23]

It matters so little that Office has 64 bit builds too, is not strange for a app to go over 2GB howdays. On Android it may no matter, but on Windows it does.

I fail to see the point about a dev coding for 32 bits or not, your 32bit program can use a maximum of 2GB of ram under 32 Bit Windows and 4GB under 64 bits Windows, even 32bits apps are affected.

Most of these tablets with BT-T are 2GB tablets. So are you going to tell me 64 bit matters? I have run the 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Office on a wide variety of systems. There is no performance difference - I don't care what goes on behind the scenes, how much RAM goes where. Maybe 64 bit is more convenient to code for as a developer. That doesn't matter to the end user, because a developer HAS to do 32 bit anyway.

Anyway, some BT-T tablets may have 4GB but this (being 32 bit) does not change the user experience, period.

Once you're using applications where you truly want 64 bit and more than 4GB of RAM you should get a core i5 or core i7 ultrabook, anyway. For 2/4GB tablets it does not matter in terms of what the end-user experiences.

 

[bullzz]

@dbcoopernz - to me 8gig ram in surface pro is an overkill. and I am pretty sure tablet OEMs are not going to put more than 4gig ram. they want to cheap out whereever possible

 

[Shivansps]

Most of these tablets with BT-T are 2GB tablets. So are you going to tell me 64 bit matters? I have run the 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Office on a wide variety of systems. There is no performance difference - I don't care what goes on behind the scenes, how much RAM goes where. Maybe 64 bit is more convenient to code for as a developer. That doesn't matter to the end user, because a developer HAS to do 32 bit anyway.

Anyway, some BT-T tablets may have 4GB but this (being 32 bit) does not change the user experience, period.

Once you're using applications where you truly want 64 bit and more than 4GB of RAM you should get a core i5 or core i7 ultrabook, anyway. For 2/4GB tablets it does not matter in terms of what the end-user experiences.

Its not about performance, its about hitting the 2GB memory limit and crashing, when 4GB of memory is avalible. And thats something that can happen on Excel with large files.
Thats why 4GB tablets must ship with 64-bits Windows.

 

[AtenRa]

8C Avoton is 107 mm² big, Bay Trail-T slightly bigger.

Thx for the reply but do you have a source ??

 

[Nothingness]

So you're telling me a user should care because you're a developer. How the hell does that affect me as a user? Give me a break please. Whether these machines are 32 bit or 64 bit you still have to code 32 bit for legacy reasons if you're a developer. An end user really doesn't give a flying EFF.

I certainly agree my needs are different from typical users. But didn't you notice I don't care about Windows? Legacy doesn't matter to me. All the users of my software have to use 64-bit Linux, so if these BT tablets don't let me do some 64-bit dev with Linux they can burn in hell. But I won't pretend I hold the truth for everyone and that these devices won't fit the need of the vast majority

The RAM is 4GB or less in all Bay Trail T SKUs therefore it doesn't freaking matter. It does not change the user experience, period. Especially with most Bay Trail T SKUs being 2GB RAM only. Seeing as the Surface Pro has 8GB RAM configurations I can conclude that it is using a 64 bit OS, anyway.

People in this thread and in the A7 one have explained ad nauseum why being 64-bit before hitting 4GB of RAM matters, if you still don't get it well, let's stop the discussion about that subject

 

[Nothingness]

It doesn't.

I used so my many "does" in my questions that I'm not sure what part you answer

 

[ShintaiDK]

I used so my many "does" in my questions that I'm not sure what part you answer

I am sure it was in regards to your assumption that the Surface Pro ran 64bit. It doesnt, it run 32bit because 64bit windows doesnt support connected standby.

It been said over and over again. BT is fully 64bit capable and enabled. Its the OS thats lacking the ability to use connected standby in 64bit.

And MS will update 64bit 8.1 in the first half of next year to support it. So the second Surface Pro will most likely be 32bit as well.

 

[Nothingness]

I am sure it was in regards to your assumption that the Surface Pro ran 64bit. It doesnt, it run 32bit because 64bit windows doesnt support connected standby.

It been said over and over again. BT is fully 64bit capable and enabled. Its the OS thats lacking the ability to use connected standby in 64bit.

And MS will update 64bit 8.1 in the first half of next year to support it. So the second Surface Pro will most likely be 32bit as well.

OK got it, thanks a lot for clarifying

But MS seems to disagree: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2858199

The Surface Pro only supports 64-bit version of Windows 8 Enterprise and 64-bit version of Windows 8 Professional operating systems.

Why is it so hard to get accurate information? What a mess

 

[Pilum]

Its not about performance, its about hitting the 2GB memory limit and crashing, when 4GB of memory is avalible. And thats something that can happen on Excel with large files.
Thats why 4GB tablets must ship with 64-bits Windows.

"bcdedit /set IncreaseUserVa 3072"?

 

[mikk]

Thx for the reply but do you have a source ??

Die size from Avoton comes from Intel, they deleted the document meanwhile. But here is a screenshot: http://s7.directupload.net/images/130424/yn5v26d4.png

Die size from Bay Trail-T is calculated from this picture: ftp://download.intel.com/newsroom/kits/idf/2013_fall/gallery/images/Bay_Trail-Front_high.jpg

There is a nice overview from Goto: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/615/261/06.jpg

Bay Trail-I appears to be a bit smaller, I measured 100 mm² from this picture: http://pics.computerbase.de/5/2/1/2/0/1.jpg

Bay Trail-I should have the same size as Bay Trail-M and Bay Trail-D.

 

[Nothingness]

OK got it, thanks a lot for clarifying

But MS seems to disagree: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2858199


Why is it so hard to get accurate information? What a mess

Hopefully this will close the subject:

"Surface Pro does not support connected standby"

page 19 of http://download.microsoft.com/downl...78BC8/en-us_Surface_Pro_User_Guide_V_1.01.pdf

To sum up:
- Surface Pro runs Windows 8 Pro 64-bit
- Surface Pro doesn't support connected standby

 

[ShintaiDK]

OK got it, thanks a lot for clarifying

But MS seems to disagree: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2858199


Why is it so hard to get accurate information? What a mess

I was mistaken. But I assumed MS wasnt that dumb (Big mistake.). But its clear the Surface Pro, when running 64bit, does not support connected standby. And also why it takes 2-3 seconds for the Surface Pro to "wakeup". And wont recieve any updates while in that state. Unlike the Surface RT.

MS just cant get out of their negative feedback cyclus.

The Surface RT comes out of “sleep” mode instantly, no matter how long it’s been sitting idle. The Surface Pro, on the other hand, puts itself into Standby mode and coming out of sleep mode takes an additional 2-3 seconds.

What this means, basically, is that the Surface RT stays connected to the Wi-Fi, even in sleep mode. The Surface Pro shuts down Wi-Fi connections when it goes to sleep after a period of time (user-definable). This also means that the Surface Pro, when in sleep mode, does not receive notifications or download your email for you when it is off. Like a computer that gets shut down at the end of the day, pulling the Surface Pro out of it’s slumber and logging in, you have to download your emails like you’ve been used to forever.

The Surface Pro is a laptop, not a tablet. And the Surface Pro 2 will be the same for quite a while ahead.

64bit simply doesnt support D states yet.

 

[AtenRa]

Die size from Avoton comes from Intel, they deleted the document meanwhile. But here is a screenshot: http://s7.directupload.net/images/130424/yn5v26d4.png

Die size from Bay Trail-T is calculated from this picture: ftp://download.intel.com/newsroom/kits/idf/2013_fall/gallery/images/Bay_Trail-Front_high.jpg

There is a nice overview from Goto: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/615/261/06.jpg

Bay Trail-I appears to be a bit smaller, I measured 100 mm² from this picture: http://pics.computerbase.de/5/2/1/2/0/1.jpg

Bay Trail-I should have the same size as Bay Trail-M and Bay Trail-D.

Ahh very nice thanks.

 

[SiliconWars]

What's missing from M and D that makes it smaller than T?

 

[seitur]

Why is it so hard to get accurate information? What a mess

Seem latest trend. Technical specifications incomplete, info on many products even on technical slides presented in a way like marketting department would write it.
Seem especially happening(but not limited to) in mobile and low-end desktop department.

It is getting increasingly annoying.

 

[AtenRa]

What's missing from M and D that makes it smaller than T?

Camera ???

Edit: Also, maybe different manufacturing process. BT-T is made at 22nm ULP, M and D may be made at LP(smaller transistors than ULP)

 

[SiliconWars]

The New Sony Xperia z1 phone has an S800 in it, results seem very similar to Bay Trail T in the legitreviews tests.

http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-a...l-first-look-and-performance-testing_123335/3

The important scores being (S800 first)...

Quadrant 20912 vs 21.315
AnTuTu 33515 vs 36054
Vellamo Metal 1157 vs 1112

It would seem the S800 is capable of maintaining close to its maximum speed without throttling, even in a phone. Given the thickness of some of the Bay Trail tablets we've seen, I'm not convinced that Intel has what it takes to match this performance in phones.

When you think about it, that's a big "oh dear". If they can't beat S800 in a phone with all of their advantages now then what can they do? Integrated LTE isn't going to help performance either, more like hinder it. Is this why they are racing to 14nm? Trying to be two nodes ahead to beat Qualcomm isn't a feasible business tactic in the long run.

 

[krumme]

The New Sony Xperia z1 phone has an S800 in it, results seem very similar to Bay Trail T in the legitreviews tests.

http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-a...l-first-look-and-performance-testing_123335/3

The important scores being (S800 first)...

Quadrant 20912 vs 21.315
AnTuTu 33515 vs 36054
Vellamo Metal 1157 vs 1112

It would seem the S800 is capable of maintaining close to its maximum speed without throttling, even in a phone. Given the thickness of some of the Bay Trail tablets we've seen, I'm not convinced that Intel has what it takes to match this performance in phones.

When you think about it, that's a big "oh dear". If they can't beat S800 in a phone with all of their advantages now then what can they do? Integrated LTE isn't going to help performance either, more like hinder it. Is this why they are racing to 14nm? Trying to be two nodes ahead to beat Qualcomm isn't a feasible business tactic in the long run.

Bt in android is a 2014 h1 thing as android is not nearly ready. Looking at the current situation i woudnt be surprised if it takes 14nm to get bt competitive. Its the same anand hinted in his conclusion. Bt 22nm against s800 in a phone makes no sense as Intel would be delegated to middle and low end. Notice its the entire soc that decides the competitiveness. If i was Intel i would just postpone the phone variants to 14nm. They have lost this round for phones.

They should just focus on win tablets for now even if its an utterly uninteresting market right now, Instead they should devellop it together with ms and gain a platform as they have monopoly like advantage here. They need the officeplatform to succeed and tablets is the good tool here. No need to go for phones before they have the soc for it.