The Intel Atom Thread

[Nothingness]

Dell Venue 7/8

http://www.slashgear.com/dell-venue...mpete-for-low-cost-tablet-supremacy-20302184/

would like to get a system dump to see what Dell needed to do to load android.... maybe steal the intel gpu driver

I don't get your point: these are using CloverTrail+, not Bay Trail, so the drivers would do you no good as these are ImgTech GPU, not Intel as in BT.

 

[paperwastage]

I don't get your point: these are using CloverTrail+, not Bay Trail, so the drivers would do you no good as these are ImgTech GPU, not Intel as in BT.

oh whoops... for some reason I thought the dell venue 7/8 were using dual core bay trails

 

[cbn]

I must say I am little disappointed to see Dell launching Clover Trail+ for budget Android Tablets at this late date (I believe launch was October 20th).

This makes me concerned about how soon we will see Z3680/Z3680D.

On the other hand, I am glad to see Dell's Android Tablet a great deal cheaper than the Windows 8.1 version (even if it only has Clover Trail+ rather than Bay Trail).

 

[Khato]

Eh, I'd expect that Dell simply wanted to launch the entire line at the same time and Baytrail-T for Android isn't quite ready yet. The bright side is that they should be able to use the Venue 8 Pro hardware for an Android product once the software side is good to go.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Where? As far as I know Android is not ready to run on Bay Trail as Intel is late in developing the required stuff. Aren't you rather talking about CloverTrail+ Android?

And yes there certainly is no point in that kind of devices with low perf, except perhaps that's where the market is heading?

You are correct, my mistake.

I agree though, I dont see the point of running android on an x86 capable processor unless it is cheaper or the same price for better battery life or performance. Depends on the price of the atoms I guess.

 

[Homeles]

14nm Airmont Atoms will have Intel 8th Generation Graphics?

http://wccftech.com/intel-atom-soc-cherry-trail-willow-trail/

Thats is exactly why i whould not buy a BT device, im kind of expecting that to happen on 14nm and we are maybe 8 months away...

I was peeking at the RWT forums, and found this interesting bit of information:

Broadwell represents the next generation (GEN8) in Intel graphics
processing hardware. Broadwell graphics bring some of the biggest
changes we've seen on the execution and memory management side of the
GPU. (There are equally large and exciting changes for the userspace
drivers.)

Again, I'd like to point out that the amount of changes on BDW dwarfs any other
silicon iteration during my tenure, and certainly can compete with the
likes of the gen3->gen4 changes.

Source:
http://www.mail-archive.com/intel-gfx@lists.freedesktop.org/msg28526.html
There's a link in the article to a list of linux driver patches that were the subject of the message.
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/log/?h=broadwell

Ken's a software engineer for Intel. Very interesting. It would be great news if Atom were to get Gen8. Of course, this doesn't really tell us anything than "Hey, we changed a helluva lot of stuff with Gen8," but changes generally are for the better

 

[bullzz]

@Nothingness - I dont think there is anything concerning about dell releasing clovertrail tablets. every OEM is manufacturing a low cost tablet with last years chip (nexus7, kindle hd, ipad mini). but intel has been late on executing on baytrail for android

 

[Khato]

Of course, this doesn't really tell us anything than "Hey, we changed a helluva lot of stuff with Gen8," but changes generally are for the better

Here's to hoping! After all, Intel graphics since Sandy Bridge has had its strong and weak points and through Haswell at least those areas where it under performs remain. Even if all Broadwell does is bring those areas up to par it'll be a marked improvement over Haswell. Sure the likely increase in execution units over Haswell will also increase performance across the board, and the 14nm process will markedly improve efficiency... but it's really about correcting the 'issues' that drag down performance in workloads other than 3dmark

Cherrytrail with a Gen8 derivative could indeed be awesome, especially since I doubt that Intel will repeat the mistake of Baytrail and not allocate enough die area to keep it at least reasonably competitive. Though who knows? Intel's been pretty bad at estimating how much die area the competition will devote to graphics for a few years now... It's quite easy to see Cherrytrail having 2-3x the graphics performance of Baytrail though. Sure they could go higher as it's a given that they already have higher performance variations on Broadwell, but I'm not certain that I see Intel increasing power consumption. Rather I'd expect that they'll just use the efficiency gains from the process shrink to increase graphics resources.

 

[Nothingness]

@Nothingness - I dont think there is anything concerning about dell releasing clovertrail tablets. every OEM is manufacturing a low cost tablet with last years chip (nexus7, kindle hd, ipad mini). but intel has been late on executing on baytrail for android

No, there's nothing concerning, except that Android for Bay Trail isn't ready and that CloverTrail+ is not something I would ever consider due to poor performance.

 

[cbn]

You are correct, my mistake.

I agree though, I dont see the point of running android on an x86 capable processor unless it is cheaper or the same price for better battery life or performance. Depends on the price of the atoms I guess.

Regarding performance, one thing we need to consider is x86 compatibility with Android apps (not all of them use Dalvik VM).

....but then I figure Web browsing will probably be Intel's killer app even if other areas happen to be weaker than they should be at this time.

 

[LogOver]

You are correct, my mistake.

I agree though, I dont see the point of running android on an x86 capable processor unless it is cheaper or the same price for better battery life or performance. Depends on the price of the atoms I guess.

Although BT has not the fastest IGP it seems that it is the only android SoC which has proper OpenGL ES 3.0 support for the time being, considering lack of ES 3.0 in Tegra 4 and terrible ARM/Qualcomm drivers.

 

[cbn]

How did I miss this:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35607268&postcount=1232

"Intel is planning to release entry-level Bay Trail-based processors for the Android platform in the second quarter of 2014, according to sources from tablet players.

The sources expect the CPUs to be priced between US$15-20, about US$12 lower than the current models.

Although Intel has already offered subsidies for its Bay Trail-T processors including Atom Z3740 and Z3770 at US$32 and US$37 and another 10% off for bulk purchase, they are still less competitive in pricing compared to ARM-based quad-core processors."

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20131014PD216.html

Matches OEMs pushing for some cheaper Bay Trail options for the budget tablets.

Second quarter 2014? I hope this rumor is not true. That is really late.

 

[Nothingness]

Digitimes is not always reliable, far from it.

I'm very surprised Intel doesn't support Android yet. They could go with 32-bit Android, which current Dalvik support. And they've been working on Android for a long time given how good their Medfield phones run despite a less than stellar CPU and a poor GPU.

Is there some graphic driver issue? Or perhaps some agreement with MS to delay support (a bit paranoid I admit )?

 

[Khato]

The tidbits from the Anandtech preview about Android performance made it sound more like issues on the CPU side. Which is quite possible given that the 32-bit Android was heavily optimized for the previous Atom and needs to be updated appropriately. Have to remember that since Intel is the only target there they have the ability to optimize for their platform far more than is possible with Microsoft products.

As for when to expect Android Baytrail-T tablets the guidance from IDF was for the coming 2013 holiday season - http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2013/10/09/bay-trail-idf-2013-debut

Intel CEO Brian Krzanich announced that more than 20 Android and Windows* 8 tablets based on Intel's new Bay Trail processor family will be on sale by the US holiday season, with prices ranging to below $100.

 

[cbn]

Looking into the Q3 conference call transcript, I searched the mention of $99 Atom SOC Tablets this Holiday season --->http://www.morningstar.com/earnings/earnings-call-transcript.aspx?t=INTC&pindex=2

During the holiday selling season, you will see Atom SoCs in tablets as low as $99

So it turns out BK doesn't say anything specifically about the $99 tablets being Bay Trail.

Four possibilities I can think of for $99 Tablets:

1. Clovertrail+
2. embedded BayTrail --->http://ark.intel.com/products/codename/55844/Bay-Trail (Click on embedded tab)
3. Intel is giving strong enough discounts on Z3740 and Z3740D. (I am doubtful)
4. Z3680 will launch sooner than Digitimes claims.

Some more info to add in--->http://www.morningstar.com/earnings/earnings-call-transcript.aspx?t=INTC&pindex=3&qindex=8

David Wong - Wells Fargo: So, Bay Trail, if I'm not mistaken there are Android tablets using Clover Trail Plus to currently available, when might we expect Android tablets using Bay Trail in the market?

Brian M. Krzanich - CEO: You're absolutely right, there are several tablets out there currently today with Clover Trail Plus using Android. What I told you was there are about 50 designs on Bay Trail about 20 of those are two in ones. Probably 25, 20 of them are Bay Trail tablets on Android. There is going to be about eight systems on shelf, eight to 10 systems on shelf, we believe by the say Black Friday timeframe most of those will be Android tablets.

In the second link I gave BK doesn't mention price, but It does sound like we will see some Android Bay Trail this month. Big question, of course, is will any of them compete in the ultra budget ($99.99 and less) category.

 

[cbn]

http://ark.intel.com/products/codename/55844/Bay-Trail

Looking at the Intel Ark Bay Trail link, I just noticed today the prices have been removed.

 

[cbn]

As for when to expect Android Baytrail-T tablets the guidance from IDF was for the coming 2013 holiday season - http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2013/10/09/bay-trail-idf-2013-debut

Intel CEO Brian Krzanich announced that more than 20 Android and Windows* 8 tablets based on Intel's new Bay Trail processor family will be on sale by the US holiday season, with prices ranging to below $100.

Okay, well that clears things up.

Now I wonder if those sub $100 Android Bay Trail tablets will be Z3740 or Z3680?

If we actually see Z3740 Tablet for $100 or less that would signal good potential for even cheaper Z3680 tablets later on.

 

[Exophase]

The tidbits from the Anandtech preview about Android performance made it sound more like issues on the CPU side. Which is quite possible given that the 32-bit Android was heavily optimized for the previous Atom and needs to be updated appropriately.

Binaries optimized for Saltwell should generally perform pretty well on Silvermont. It's not some exotic new uarch with a bunch of special rules.

You could probably still do better with stuff that's not heavily tuned for Saltwell, especially on 32-bit x86, since trying to schedule dual-issues and avoiding AGIs would increase register pressure somewhat. But I don't think it'll be a huge difference.

 

[Khato]

Binaries optimized for Saltwell should generally perform pretty well on Silvermont. It's not some exotic new uarch with a bunch of special rules.

You could probably still do better with stuff that's not heavily tuned for Saltwell, especially on 32-bit x86, since trying to schedule dual-issues and avoiding AGIs would increase register pressure somewhat. But I don't think it'll be a huge difference.

That's what I'm not clear on as well. Anandtech's preview mentioned that there was some instability and some UI stutter, with the latter supposedly attributed to Dalvik not allocating threads to cores properly. That issue I can easily see as being the result of going from a core with hyperthreading to one without, though it still seems a bit odd. Regardless, from the benchmarks there's no question that Dalvik performance isn't where it should be, which implies that there are indeed optimizations necessary.

Now I wonder if those sub $100 Android Bay Trail tablets will be Z3740 or Z3680?

If we actually see Z3740 Tablet for $100 or less that would signal good potential for even cheaper Z3680 tablets later on.

Well, the only gain for Intel with the Z3680 is if there happens to be a production defect on one of the CPU cores... and given the small percentage of the die used for the CPU cores that's not likely to be a very large number of dice. Which is to say that they may well offer the Z3740 at Z3680 prices if they feel the need. Or at least the Z3740D.

 

[Nothingness]

That's what I'm not clear on as well. Anandtech's preview mentioned that there was some instability and some UI stutter, with the latter supposedly attributed to Dalvik not allocating threads to cores properly. That issue I can easily see as being the result of going from a core with hyperthreading to one without, though it still seems a bit odd. Regardless, from the benchmarks there's no question that Dalvik performance isn't where it should be, which implies that there are indeed optimizations necessary.

What Dalvik benchmark did you look at? If we pick Anand AndEBench results, one sees that for native BT is about 4 times RAZRi, and for the Java it's about 4 times too. So it's as poor/good for Silvermont as it is for Saltwell.

If Intel really needs to improve that, they could have done it with a few man years of work long ago. So either there's nothing to improve, or Intel is very poor at envisioning the future and didn't commit enough engineers on that task, which is doubtful given that they've been working on Android for a long time.

 

[Vesku]

Perhaps it's a matter of having a release ready Intel HD graphics driver for Android. It's been PowerVR up until Bay Trail, correct?

 

[Nothingness]

Perhaps it's a matter of having a release ready Intel HD graphics driver for Android. It's been PowerVR up until Bay Trail, correct?

That's my guess, but LogOver claimed just above that Intel are the only ones to have an OpenGL ES 3 driver, so I wonder.

 

[Sweepr]

you might want to get a pair of glasses instead, it says $299/349, not 249

You might want to learn one thing or two about limited time offers.

 

[Khato]

What Dalvik benchmark did you look at? If we pick Anand AndEBench results, one sees that for native BT is about 4 times RAZRi, and for the Java it's about 4 times too. So it's as poor/good for Silvermont as it is for Saltwell.

I wasn't referring to benchmarks, rather the text of the article.

Depending on where you were in the Android UI, there was some definite stutter, but I’m told this is a result of an issue with Dalvik not allocating threads to cores properly that Intel is still tuning, something which you can see plays itself out as well in the AndEBench Java test that runs in Dalvik. The launcher especially had some stutter, but Intel claimed they were aware of it and that final performance in areas like that would be dramatically improved.

Now sure the author's speculation about the issue also being responsible for the AndEBench results is called into question for the reason you state, but that doesn't change what he was told regarding a Dalvik issue. Though it also could be the case that the Dalvik fix will boost the AndEBench Java score to being well beyond the 4x scaling seen in the native. After all, taking a page from the ARM camp, the Snapdragon 800 MDP is 1.5x faster than the Nexus 4 in Native and 2.4x faster in Java - why can't the same be true for x86?

 

[Sweepr]

14nm Airmont Atoms will have Intel 8th Generation Graphics?

http://wccftech.com/intel-atom-soc-cherry-trail-willow-trail/

Thats is exactly why i whould not buy a BT device, im kind of expecting that to happen on 14nm and we are maybe 8 months away...

DigiTimes already mentioned that back in July/August. I think we can expect impressive gains from Cherry Trail on the gfx side thanks to the new architecture (Gen 8, same as Broadwell vs Ivy Bridge/Bay Trail's Gen 7) and (hopefully) a lot more EUs.