The Islamic thread

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dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
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0
Originally posted by: Sultan
The US should not do ANYTHING. I dont understand why the US should act as an influencing force in everything. Read Osama bin Laden's speech. He asks if we think he hates the West and the ideals of freedom, etc, why do you think he didnt attack a country like Sweden? Why the USA? Ask that to yourself. Let me know what answer you come up with.

I do not agree that we should do nothing.

I believe it is our foreign policy in the Middle East and our support of Israel that makes a lot of people in the Middle East hate us. By foreign policy I mean examples like using Afghanistan as a pawn in our war against the Soviet Union, and our military actions to benefit our corporations like Iraq. Osama bin Laden is using the same bleed techinique we taught the mujadeen that helped lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Bush is playing right into it.

Personally, I think we should be spending the money we have spent on Iraq on getting off our dependence of foreign oil. I would rather pay hundreds of billions on cleaner and less terrorist funding sources of energy than on military force. Rather than providing larger tax benefits for large SUVs than for hybrid vehicles, I believe we should increase the tax benefit for hybrids and create a tax penalty for SUV buyers. I could not find a good statistic, but it looks like the US uses around 250 billion gallons of oil a year. There are 42 gallons per barrel. So that is about 6 billion barrels a year. At approximately $50/barrel that is $300 billion a year we are spending on oil. I believe the current statistic is that Iraq has cost us about $145 billion so far, if we spent that money on lowering our oil usage we could probably make back the money over not too many years.

One strategy we could have taken in the Middle East would have been to use economic sanctions against countries who would not implement an anti-terrorism agenda which would be defined as the following. Egypt and Israel have a treaty where Egypt is not supposed to incite violence against Israel, but it is not well enforced.

- Arrest known terrorists within the countries borders (If the UN can identify them and their location)

- Institute anti-hate laws. School textbooks may not teach hate.

- Religous leaders may not preach hate or violence

- News media may not publish any terrorist media or identify individuals taking credit for terrorism
(Remove the martyrdom through the media)

- News media may not publish anti-semetic/racist information or promote violence. This does not mean
that news media cannot publish articles about Israeli troops killing civilians if it really happens. It does
mean that they cannot call terrorists and natzis heros. They cannot publish articles saying the
holocaust never happened (but then a week later call a natzi who killed millions of jews a hero), or
claim that Jews bake bread using the blood of babies.

Religous leader first violations should be fined, second violations should involve criminal charges.

News media first violations should be fined, second violations should involve criminal charges against those involved, and third violations should involve shutting down the news media responsible. Underground news would surface promoting hate, but removing it from the mainstream would help remove the credibility.

People will still be racist in their day-to-day lives, but removing it from the mainstream media should eventually have an impact on the culture.

Make Israel adhere to these same sanctions: they may not promote violence and hate against other Middle East countries or be cut off funding. The US would have to be willing to use these sanctions against Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, which we probably are not currently willing to do. Use UN inspectors to verify that these sanctions are being adhered to. News media is easy to randomly sample. Undercover UN inspectors would attend random services (Jewish and Muslim). It may take decades for this to have any affect, but it could be well worth it. We probably would want to take on one country at a time.

Comments? Could the US influence the media of another country? Can we mediate the hate between the two sides?

[Edit: I do not believe we can do anything like this any time soon, definitely not the next 4 years. We have lost all credibility we had in the region and in the UN with Iraq.]
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
A 14 year old boy is sentenced to 85 lashes for breaking his Ramadan fast !


Why Theo Van Gogh Was Murdered

But why kill Theo Van Gogh, of all the people who have expressed hostility to radical Islam? Perhaps it was mere chance, but more likely it resulted from his work?s exposure of a very raw nerve of Muslim identity in Western Europe: the abuse of women. This abuse is now essential for people of Muslim descent for maintaining any sense of separate cultural identity in the homogenizing solution of modern mass society.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: dszd0g
How do you interpret the following passages from the Quran on this page?

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Koran.html

I will quote the above link first. Followed by the site given earlier:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran

Comparing their interpretation and what USC has, they seem to be stretching it a bit. However, I cannot see verse 017.104 interpreted as anything other than saying that Israel should be for the Jews. When you take 5.20 and 5.21 together it is pretty clear too. So as a follower of the Quran do you believe that Israel belongs to the Jews? Or are these passages being misinterpreted?

""Sura 5:21
Moses is quoted as telling the Jews to "enter into the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you". While Mohammed later condemns the Jews for their sins and their refusal to accept his message, he never says that, as punishment, Allah has revoked our title to the Holy Land. Therefore the title still stands, and Muslim anti-Zionists are apostates."

"005.020
YUSUFALI: Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures.
SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations."

"005.021
YUSUFALI: "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."
PICKTHAL: O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers:
SHAKIR: O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers."

The above passages are in historical context. As you may know, Judaism is one of the Abrahamic faiths and the Torah is one of the Books that God sent to His people. God, in the above passages are instructing the people of Moses to enter the holy land. The following verse will shed more light on refuting the above claim:

005.012
Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

005.013
But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

The land in light of the above passages does not belong to any particular people.
"Sura 17:104
The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that 'And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."'"

"017.104
YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment."

This is again in historical context. The passages in this Surah narrate the life of Prophet Moses (S.A) and his people and serve as a warning for the disbelievers of Mecca not to follow the same path, otherwise be admonished.

Read more commentary here for this Surah: Bani Isra'il
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: dszd0g
Regarding your question about Jesus and his death

I do not have sufficient knowledge to answer this question. I shall let you know when I have an appropriate reply.

Here's an article regarding the Islamic view of the ascension of Jesus (A.S) Link

This is the most comprehensive article I have found regarding the above subject.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: dszd0g
Originally posted by: Sultan
The US should not do ANYTHING. I dont understand why the US should act as an influencing force in everything. Read Osama bin Laden's speech. He asks if we think he hates the West and the ideals of freedom, etc, why do you think he didnt attack a country like Sweden? Why the USA? Ask that to yourself. Let me know what answer you come up with.

I do not agree that we should do nothing.

I dont quite understand the US involvement in other nation's affairs. When there is a pressing need for humanitarian relief or in the case of genocides/massacres, I am all for foreign involvement. For the US to hold the moral banner, or interfere with other nations affairs is wrong. When a SIGNIFICANT majority of the world endorses action, I support that. I dont think the US by itself should have an interfering foreign policy. That IS the reason why the world is so divided as you can see now.

All your suggestions are very sound, and I dont find anything wrong with them. They are most insightful and comprehensive. I wish this could be implemented.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
Originally posted by: Sultan
*things that are interesting in a modern sense?
By modern you mean? There is a big misconception that the Muslim nations are very backwards. You know, they use electricity.
That's not what I mean at all.

and I'm struggling to express what I'm talking about...Um...Here's some examples of the difference between places with a modern appeal vs. a historic appeal:

Spain: Lots of history, but haven't done much recently that's worth looking at...hot girls though
Las Vegas: Not very interested in the city's history but lots of stuff to do
London: Bit of both
Oklahoma: Not really interested in this place's history or doing anything there
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
*things that are interesting in a modern sense?
By modern you mean? There is a big misconception that the Muslim nations are very backwards. You know, they use electricity.
That's not what I mean at all.

and I'm struggling to express what I'm talking about...Um...Here's some examples of the difference between places with a modern appeal vs. a historic appeal:

Spain: Lots of history, but haven't done much recently that's worth looking at...hot girls though
Las Vegas: Not very interested in the city's history but lots of stuff to do
London: Bit of both
Oklahoma: Not really interested in this place's history or doing anything there

Perhaps Malaysia would be a good destination for you. Rich cultural history, amazing modern influences and Islamic hertiage all combined in one package.
 

dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
0
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
The above passages are in historical context. As you may know, Judaism is one of the Abrahamic faiths and the Torah is one of the Books that God sent to His people. God, in the above passages are instructing the people of Moses to enter the holy land. The following verse will shed more light on refuting the above claim:

005.012
Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

005.013
But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

The land in light of the above passages does not belong to any particular people.

Can you provide more explanation than that? I am not sure that I follow how the above passages say that the holy land is no longer for the Jews. It mentions a "breach of their covenant", which had occurred. The Torah mentions a couple times historically when the covenant was breached, but then the breaches were forgiven after ammends were made, as the above verse ends "but forgive them". If you notice those versus come before 5.20 and 5.21.

Read more commentary here for this Surah: Bani Isra'il

I am not sure I follow any argument in there against the above. It does contain:

The disbelievers of Makkah had been admonished to take a lesson from the miserable end of the Israelites and other communities and mend their ways within the period of respite given by Allah, which was about to expire. They should, therefore, accept the invitation that was being extended by Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him) and the Quran; otherwise they shall be annihilated and replaced by other people. Incidentally, the Israelites, with whom Islam was going to come in direct contact in the near future at Al-Madinah have also been warned that they should learn a lesson from the chastisements that have already been inflicted on them. They were warned, "Take advantage of the Prophethood of Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him) because that is the last opportunity which is being given to you. If even now you behave as you have been behaving, you shall meet with a painful torment."

However, in this thread you seem to indicate that the Quran does not teach annihilation of the Jews. The above seems to indicate rather than the disbelievers of Makkah (who does that refer to?) would be annihilated if they do not follow Muhammed.

I am not following your explanation, could you please elaborate?
 

dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
0
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: dszd0g
Regarding your question about Jesus and his death

I do not have sufficient knowledge to answer this question. I shall let you know when I have an appropriate reply.

Here's an article regarding the Islamic view of the ascension of Jesus (A.S) Link

This is the most comprehensive article I have found regarding the above subject.

That link is full of logical fallacies. It states that the Quran clearly says that the crucifixion did not take place and one must chose between the Christian and Muslim belief. The only argument it uses is that Muhammad "had no additional knowledge concerning it compared to anyone else at his time (unless, of course, you believe that he was a prophet)." This is not logically sound. It claims that because everyone but a believes b, and a believes c, then a must be d. I believe this is the fallacy called "begging the question" also known as "circular reasoning."

It also claims that it would have been easier to just go with the flow, "Why offend his Christian audience?"
This argument claims that anyone who does not hold a common belief, and who does not want to offend most people, must have the correct belief. Another example of "begging the question."
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: dszd0g
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: dszd0g
Regarding your question about Jesus and his death

I do not have sufficient knowledge to answer this question. I shall let you know when I have an appropriate reply.

Here's an article regarding the Islamic view of the ascension of Jesus (A.S) Link

This is the most comprehensive article I have found regarding the above subject.

That link is full of logical fallacies. It states that the Quran clearly says that the crucifixion did not take place and one must chose between the Christian and Muslim belief. The only argument it uses is that Muhammad "had no additional knowledge concerning it compared to anyone else at his time (unless, of course, you believe that he was a prophet)." This is not logically sound. It claims that because everyone but a believes b, and a believes c, then a must be d. I believe this is the fallacy called "begging the question" also known as "circular reasoning."

It also claims that it would have been easier to just go with the flow, "Why offend his Christian audience?"
This argument claims that anyone who does not hold a common belief, and who does not want to offend most people, must have the correct belief. Another example of "begging the question."

Referring to the above topic, I only have belief that Jesus (A.S) was not crucified. I shall inquire about historical evidence from knowledgable people and let you know. As I said, I currently do not have appropriate knowledge to answer your question.

I know only of Quran and Sunnah regarding the crucification and both deny that Jesus died on the cross.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
What is (RA), (SA), (AS)?

[Edit] Found out RA is radiallahu anhu, SA is salallahu alayhi wasalam,
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
What is (RA), (SA), (AS)?

[Edit] Found out RA is radiallahu anhu, SA is salallahu alayhi wasalam,

(AS) = allahis salam

these are titles of respects.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
any other questions? has anyone's misperceptions been removed? any one else found this thread to be a good source for information?
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
The Question of CAIR

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: wiin
The Question of CAIR

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."

CAIR's founding chairman, Omar Ahmed, also an IAP alumnus, is said to have declared at a public event in California in July, 1998: "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." Ahmed has since disputed the accuracy of the quote--five years after it was reported by a California newspaper.

Anyways, the aim of any proselytizing religion is to spread the message to all corners of the globe. Of course any man of faith would hold his faith superior to another.

I dont see the point of your post. The author of the article has called CAIR "an unscrupulous, Islamist, extremist sympathetic group in Canada supporting terrorism." and you are referring to this article to prove...?
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
any more questions about Islamic laws and beliefs?

As we all know, honor killings of young women (girls) is common all over the world, does the islamic laws or faith support this?

 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Originally posted by: Sultan
any more questions about Islamic laws and beliefs?

As we all know, honor killings of young women (girls) is common all over the world, does the islamic laws or faith support this?

I believe this has been addressed previously. In short, honor killings are contrary to and are not part of Islamic law or belief system.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
just a bump. would like to know if anyone thinks this thread has been helpful, via PM or via a post.

thanks.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
We are at war with Islam, like it or not. Many muslims in europe are openly saying go and kill the non muslims aka the european christians. etc etc

at some point we will have to deal with this. either that or muslims clean up their act
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: raildogg
We are at war with Islam, like it or not. Many muslims in europe are openly saying go and kill the non muslims aka the european christians. etc etc

at some point we will have to deal with this. either that or muslims clean up their act

many Muslims? Or random extremeists here and there looking to grab power? There is a difference you know.

 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
We are at war with Islam, like it or not. Many muslims in europe are openly saying go and kill the non muslims aka the european christians. etc etc

at some point we will have to deal with this. either that or muslims clean up their act

You sure are fearful. You are overreacting, probably a symptom of your propensity to overgeneralize. Stop shaking with fear and get control of yourself long enough to get your facts straight.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: raildogg
We are at war with Islam, like it or not. Many muslims in europe are openly saying go and kill the non muslims aka the european christians. etc etc

at some point we will have to deal with this. either that or muslims clean up their act

many Muslims? Or random extremeists here and there looking to grab power? There is a difference you know.

many random extremists. happy now?

Im sure when their numbers are high enough in europe, they're pretty high at the moment, they will demand a separate state. how wonderful
 
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