The Islamic thread

[raildogg]

oh and are you the Grand Ayatollah of Anandtech? just curious

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Sultan
any interesting questions?

yes, is it true that the gazi think of the world as being muslim and non muslim

i mean they truly think of it as a war between believers and non believers. im sure you know what the gazi is

i dont know who the "gazi" is, so you'll have to enlighten me

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg
oh and are you the Grand Ayatollah of Anandtech? just curious

no, im just someone trying to correct incorrect impressions about the second largest faith in the world.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Sultan
any interesting questions?

yes, is it true that the gazi think of the world as being muslim and non muslim

i mean they truly think of it as a war between believers and non believers. im sure you know what the gazi is

i dont know who the "gazi" is, so you'll have to enlighten me

well they or it is a group of people in the muslim faith who believe the world is divided between believers and non believers, i believe its a arabic term. its only a simple defition, its very complex however

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Sultan
any interesting questions?

yes, is it true that the gazi think of the world as being muslim and non muslim

i mean they truly think of it as a war between believers and non believers. im sure you know what the gazi is

i dont know who the "gazi" is, so you'll have to enlighten me

well they or it is a group of people in the muslim faith who believe the world is divided between believers and non believers, i believe its a arabic term. its only a simple defition, its very complex however

i'm sorry, i have never heard of such a thing being part of the Islamic belief. As with people of all religions, Muslims believe that Islam is the correct religion and invite people to accept the faith. The invitation is done in the form of "Dawah" where community members around a mosque are invited to attend information sessions, or through other means. Ofcourse, as Muslims are non-believers according to other faiths, the same can be said of Muslims believing people of other faiths being non-believers. But there is no such 'divide' and I have not heard of the term "gazi"

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Everyone on this form. Sultan believes women = dogs. I guarantee you if a covered woman who is Muslim gets a chance to express her views she would bash Sultan. Women cover up because they feel protected from the stares of men because they do not see a reason to date/fool around. That's it. They engage in social activities and such. They just do not date. They are friends with someone first and if they are interested they get engaged. That's how it works. I have no idea what Sultan is suggesting, but I promise you it is wrong.

It is sad that we do not have anyone who wears a scarf on anandtech who could tell you how wrong Sultan is.

Believe me he is wrong.

HAve you ever noticed? Even if the whole world agrees on something it is not necassary that it is right?

Islam gives more rights to women than any other group that exists.

It is people like you aimster that differenciate between women liing according to Islam and those living according to what you call freedom.

The world has lost it! I mean how are we different from animals? Yes instinct is one thing that make us animal like. But we have been given a mind to use and to satsfy are instincts in more civilized way.

IMO western culture is a mar on the term "civilization" To you civilization is something completely different to what it is to us. So there is NO point discussing what is right and what is wrong based on the comments of one. To you your thoughts and to us ours.

The world hasnt evolved. Only the way of thinking has changed.

 

[bpatters69]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: bpatters69
Ok. Is it true that many Muslims see the Tsunami's as an act of God and that the victims were somehow being punished?

lol. While that doesnt count as an Islamic theology question, I'll go ahead and satisfy your question.

Many Muslims of South East Asia view this as an act of God to find a reason for the widespread devastation. Many tther Muslims of the Middle East view it as a conspiracy, be it USA/Russia/India/Israel Nuclear testing, or Aliens, or whatever.

I just see it as a natural disaster. I would imagine most Muslims view it the same way I do

Well, I see your point in that this is not directly a Islamic Theological question. What I should have said is doesn't Islam profess the helping of others in times of need? Unfortunately, I have to base some of what I know about Islam on the rather slanted US press so I try to be careful about my conclusions and I also try to determine of much of what gets reported is really accurate. Lets not kid ourselves, the US press is out to get rating by any means possible. Two words - Dan Rather.

Getting back to my point, what is the Islamic view of people who are in need? I find it ironic that there are a large numbe of Muslims in the affected area, yet the countries who have pledged to help are typically non-Muslim countries, ie US, Germany, Japan, Australia. I am questioning the amount, I am just questioning the actual act of giving assistance.

 

[mAdMaLuDaWg]

Sultan, I have a couple of questions.
How many wives did Muhammad have? Are an of them mentioned in the Quran? Are there any women mentioned by name in the Quran?
Is it true that Muslims must always step into the bathroom with their left leg first else they are considered sinners (I have a very orthodox Muslim friend who says this). Is it also true that when Muslims goto the bathroom they must bend slightly to the left?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Sultan, I have a couple of questions.
How many wives did Muhammad have? Are an of them mentioned in the Quran? Are there any women mentioned by name in the Quran?
Is it true that Muslims must always step into the bathroom with their left leg first else they are considered sinners (I have a very orthodox Muslim friend who says this). Is it also true that when Muslims goto the bathroom they must bend slightly to the left?

1 Mohammed SAW had 14 wives...None have been mentioned by name.

2 Thats part of bathroom etiquette.

3 Rubbish!

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: bpatters69

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: bpatters69
Ok. Is it true that many Muslims see the Tsunami's as an act of God and that the victims were somehow being punished?

lol. While that doesnt count as an Islamic theology question, I'll go ahead and satisfy your question.

Many Muslims of South East Asia view this as an act of God to find a reason for the widespread devastation. Many tther Muslims of the Middle East view it as a conspiracy, be it USA/Russia/India/Israel Nuclear testing, or Aliens, or whatever.

I just see it as a natural disaster. I would imagine most Muslims view it the same way I do

Well, I see your point in that this is not directly a Islamic Theological question. What I should have said is doesn't Islam profess the helping of others in times of need? Unfortunately, I have to base some of what I know about Islam on the rather slanted US press so I try to be careful about my conclusions and I also try to determine of much of what gets reported is really accurate. Lets not kid ourselves, the US press is out to get rating by any means possible. Two words - Dan Rather.

Getting back to my point, what is the Islamic view of people who are in need? I find it ironic that there are a large numbe of Muslims in the affected area, yet the countries who have pledged to help are typically non-Muslim countries, ie US, Germany, Japan, Australia. I am questioning the amount, I am just questioning the actual act of giving assistance.

Giving is the very basis of Islam itself....Its based on brotherhood and equality. But the fact is that not many muslim nations have enough themselves to give others. I mean the US is creating trouble in the ME not allowing them to get powerful...How do you expect small weak nations to help significanlty moneywise? And sadly muslims nations havent been allowed to unite even to form an ecominic forum.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hatim
Islam gives more rights to women than any other group that exists.

How so?

IMO western culture is a mar on the term "civilization" To you civilization is something completely different to what it is to us. So there is NO point discussing what is right and what is wrong based on the comments of one. To you your thoughts and to us ours.

Let me get this right - the child that talks about mass genocide of entire people and believes that people can have children with animals is saying that 'western culture' is a 'mar' on civilization. But let's just ignore that 'western culture' and 'western civilization' has advanced the world far more than any other culture and civilization and especially your oppressive culture and civilization.

Oh well. Continue on wanting to murder millions of people. Must be one of the positive points of your culture for you.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hatim
Giving is the very basis of Islam itself....Its based on brotherhood and equality. But the fact is that not many muslim nations have enough themselves to give others. I mean the US is creating trouble in the ME not allowing them to get powerful...How do you expect small weak nations to help significanlty moneywise? And sadly muslims nations havent been allowed to unite even to form an ecominic forum.

Yeah, it can't also have anything to do with those Middle Eastern countries themselves either. But I forgot, everyone in these areas love each other. There hasn't been any conflict between the peoples in quite some time!

BTW, 'small weak' Middle Eastern nations have been helping pretty well money wise.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Islam gives more rights to women than any other group that exists.

How so?

IMO western culture is a mar on the term "civilization" To you civilization is something completely different to what it is to us. So there is NO point discussing what is right and what is wrong based on the comments of one. To you your thoughts and to us ours.

Let me get this right - the child that talks about mass genocide of entire people and believes that people can have children with animals is saying that 'western culture' is a 'mar' on civilization. But let's just ignore that 'western culture' and 'western civilization' has advanced the world far more than any other culture and civilization and especially your oppressive culture and civilization.

Oh well. Continue on wanting to murder millions of people. Must be one of the positive points of your culture for you.

Women Rights. Tell me when Women got the right to vote in america? In Islam 1400 years ago women were equals of men. Equal yes but the are different. Physically and mentally they are different. There are different things as to who can do that better...Just because they have been instructed to wear parda for their own sake means they have no freedom? Islam doesnt stop from haing sex. Sex and marraige is a very important part of Islamic law. For every need we have there are ways of fullfilling those needs.

Let ME get this right - the old man that talk about something that no one has said thinks he is superior to all other cultures in the world! Proove what you say I said. I never said ANYTHING about mass genocide of people nor did I ever say that animals and man can have children...

And hell the west maybe more advanced in some ways but it lags far behind in others. Advanced - YES! Civilized - NO! Just because america has control of the whole world does not make them superior to any other people of this world nor does it give them the right to say that their culture is more superior to anyone elses. In what way is american civilization more advanced than any other? For treating prisinors with abuse? For stripping them up and sexually harrasing them for FUN? For detaining "detainees" for months on end without any proof what so ever? To go and kill as many hundreds of people just for the sake of "invisible" proof of threat to national security? To kill as many hundreds and thousands of innocents to avenge the death of a few hundred? To stop people from leading better lives just for the sake of political power? Sad to know the difference from your point of view between the life of an american and that of a non.

One Question. Do you beleive in GOD(s)?

 

[mAdMaLuDaWg]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Sultan, I have a couple of questions.
How many wives did Muhammad have? Are an of them mentioned in the Quran? Are there any women mentioned by name in the Quran?
Is it true that Muslims must always step into the bathroom with their left leg first else they are considered sinners (I have a very orthodox Muslim friend who says this). Is it also true that when Muslims goto the bathroom they must bend slightly to the left?

1 Mohammed SAW had 14 wives...None have been mentioned by name.

2 Thats part of bathroom etiquette.

3 Rubbish!

1. Let me ask this again, are there any women mentioned in the Koran?

2. How so? From what he told me, its more a part of a religous practice. He said only sinners enter the bathroom with their right leg.

3. Thats what he told me... bear in mind that he was VERY orthodox.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Giving is the very basis of Islam itself....Its based on brotherhood and equality. But the fact is that not many muslim nations have enough themselves to give others. I mean the US is creating trouble in the ME not allowing them to get powerful...How do you expect small weak nations to help significanlty moneywise? And sadly muslims nations havent been allowed to unite even to form an ecominic forum.

Yeah, it can't also have anything to do with those Middle Eastern countries themselves either. But I forgot, everyone in these areas love each other. There hasn't been any conflict between the peoples in quite some time!

BTW, 'small weak' Middle Eastern nations have been helping pretty well money wise.

Yes because there are tens of different sects of islam. And besides none of them are anything more than muslims by name. These Bin Ladin and the Taliban only take the name of islam for wordly power. Islam as you all know it is disapperaring...it never existed. So many people jsut call themselves muslims and then do whatever they are forbidden to do so and think there muslim and its enough. The true meaning of Islam. Why did God create us? Just to live life and then either go to heaven or hell????

To be honest more than half of the total muslim population donot beleive in their religion as a faith....They just follow it becuase they were born into it blindly. Not knowing possibly the gist of the religion itself. And some Elders say its wrong to qustion anything in the Quran even though the prophet SAW said "A good question is half of faith."

And its usually not the people hating each other, its the govrnments...which again just assume power in the name of islam when they themselves donot know what islam is. Just becuase yu are born on a religion doesnt make you right. You have to study it and know it and reason!

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Sultan, I have a couple of questions.
How many wives did Muhammad have? Are an of them mentioned in the Quran? Are there any women mentioned by name in the Quran?
Is it true that Muslims must always step into the bathroom with their left leg first else they are considered sinners (I have a very orthodox Muslim friend who says this). Is it also true that when Muslims goto the bathroom they must bend slightly to the left?

1 Mohammed SAW had 14 wives...None have been mentioned by name.

2 Thats part of bathroom etiquette.

3 Rubbish!

1. Let me ask this again, are there any women mentioned in the Koran?

2. How so? From what he told me, its more a part of a religous practice. He said only sinners enter the bathroom with their right leg.

3. Thats what he told me... bear in mind that he was VERY orthodox.

1. Yes. Marium or Mary...There is a whole chapter named after her.

2. No its bathroom etiqutte....Tell him he is wrong.

3. Im orthadox to but there is NO reason why you should bend towards the left. Thats just made up stuff.

 

[mAdMaLuDaWg]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Sultan, I have a couple of questions.
How many wives did Muhammad have? Are an of them mentioned in the Quran? Are there any women mentioned by name in the Quran?
Is it true that Muslims must always step into the bathroom with their left leg first else they are considered sinners (I have a very orthodox Muslim friend who says this). Is it also true that when Muslims goto the bathroom they must bend slightly to the left?

1 Mohammed SAW had 14 wives...None have been mentioned by name.

2 Thats part of bathroom etiquette.

3 Rubbish!

1. Let me ask this again, are there any women mentioned in the Koran?

2. How so? From what he told me, its more a part of a religous practice. He said only sinners enter the bathroom with their right leg.

3. Thats what he told me... bear in mind that he was VERY orthodox.

1. Yes. Marium or Mary...There is a whole chapter named after her.

2. No its bathroom etiqutte....Tell him he is wrong.

3. Im orthadox to but there is NO reason why you should bend towards the left. Thats just made up stuff.

I doubt he is wrong. His father is a cleric and he has this really high Islamic degree... I forget what its called.. he spoke very little English because he only knew Arabic and he has been studying Islam for the better part of his life. Anyhoo, I don't know where he is now.

Thats interesting about Mary being the only women mentioned in the Koran (the mother of Jesus Christ right??), on that note I've always been curious on how the Koran looks at Jesus Christ. Who does the Koran say he is?

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Islam gives more rights to women than any other group that exists.

How so?

IMO western culture is a mar on the term "civilization" To you civilization is something completely different to what it is to us. So there is NO point discussing what is right and what is wrong based on the comments of one. To you your thoughts and to us ours.

Let me get this right - the child that talks about mass genocide of entire people and believes that people can have children with animals is saying that 'western culture' is a 'mar' on civilization. But let's just ignore that 'western culture' and 'western civilization' has advanced the world far more than any other culture and civilization and especially your oppressive culture and civilization.

Oh well. Continue on wanting to murder millions of people. Must be one of the positive points of your culture for you.

Women Rights. Tell me when Women got the right to vote in america? In Islam 1400 years ago women were equals of men. Equal yes but the are different. Physically and mentally they are different. There are different things as to who can do that better...Just because they have been instructed to wear parda for their own sake means they have no freedom? Islam doesnt stop from haing sex. Sex and marraige is a very important part of Islamic law. For every need we have there are ways of fullfilling those needs.

Let ME get this right - the old man that talk about something that no one has said thinks he is superior to all other cultures in the world! Proove what you say I said. I never said ANYTHING about mass genocide of people nor did I ever say that animals and man can have children...

And hell the west maybe more advanced in some ways but it lags far behind in others. Advanced - YES! Civilized - NO! Just because america has control of the whole world does not make them superior to any other people of this world nor does it give them the right to say that their culture is more superior to anyone elses. In what way is american civilization more advanced than any other? For treating prisinors with abuse? For stripping them up and sexually harrasing them for FUN? For detaining "detainees" for months on end without any proof what so ever? To go and kill as many hundreds of people just for the sake of "invisible" proof of threat to national security? To kill as many hundreds and thousands of innocents to avenge the death of a few hundred? To stop people from leading better lives just for the sake of political power? Sad to know the difference from your point of view between the life of an american and that of a non.

One Question. Do you beleive in GOD(s)?

Islam and the Liberation of Women in the Middle East: Separation of Mosque and State is the Only Answer
by Azam Kamguian

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 4.

Women?s status in Middle Eastern societies has aroused great interest recently. What role do Islamic ideology and practice play in the oppression of women in the region and other societies where Islam holds sway?

Few would argue that the situation of Middle Eastern women can be understood without reference to Islam. Although no two Middle Eastern countries have identical legal-religious systems, women are second-class citizens in all of them. But the position of women in the region cannot be understood without a thorough appreciation of the economic and political contexts in which they live, in addition to Islam?s long-standing influence.

There are many schools of thought in this debate. One group denies that the great majority of women are any more oppressed than are non-Middle Eastern women. A second group says that oppression is real but extrinsic to Islam and the Qur?an?which, they say, intended gender equality but has been undermined by Arabic patriarchy and foreign influence.

Among intellectuals and in the academic world, any attempt to blame Islam for women?s oppression is stamped as Orientalism. Those who defend Islam against Western critiques focus on proving the ?progressive? nature of the Qur?an, Hadith, and Sharia, either by denying the low status of women in Middle Eastern societies, or by attributing it to pre-Islamic traditions and the contemporary political Islamic movement.

Many feminists and academic intellectuals apologize for Islam by saying that such practices as veiling women and female genital mutilation are not restricted to Middle Eastern societies. Some say that women who wear make-up in the West are just as oppressed, but it is a Postmodernist, neo-colonialist kind of oppression. They say that all religions regard women as inferior. They fail to take into account that Islam is largely unrestricted by secularism and the secular states that in the West have restricted Christianity?s power over women?s lives. This attitude is obvious in the following words of Nawal El Saadawi:

I?ve noticed that many people including professors of religion and Islamic studies, pick up one verse and say that in the Qur?an, God allowed men to beat women. They don?t compare it to other verses. They also don?t compare the Qur?an to the Bible. If you do, you will find the Bible more oppressive to women.1

According to El Saadawi, women in the Middle East are oppressed not because they live under the rule of Islam or belong to the East, but as a result of the patriarchal class system that has dominated the world for thousands of years. In her view, the struggle for women?s civil liberties, individual freedom, and secularism have no significance. In this discourse, patriarchy is used as a blanket term to disguise Islam?s role in the oppression of women. Every aspect of women?s subordination in the Middle East is inaccurately labeled as the result of patriarchy. If Islam has no effect on women?s status, why is the position of women in the Middle East worse than in any other part of the world?
Islamic Resistance to Women?s Rights

Historically, Islam has resisted women?s rights, secularism, and modernization. Dramatic differences between the East and non-Muslim West emerged in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Economic and social changes, along with the impact of exposure to Western culture, gave rise to forces within Middle Eastern societies that favored changes in the condition of women. Starting in the early nineteenth century, the process of change set in motion by Western influence led to broadly positive outcomes, as mechanisms for controlling women and excluding them from major domains of activity in their society were gradually dismantled.

At first this didn?t involve legal changes, but rather such things as education. Western economic penetration of the Middle East and the exposure of Middle Eastern societies to Western political thought and ideas did little to dismantle either Islamic law or the backward social institutions oppressive to women. Changes in Islamic law pertaining to women, especially changes to law set forth in the Qur?an, have met with considerable resistance. The leaders of nationalistic factions viewed any proposed changes in the status of women in society as Western intrusion into their last sphere of control. They had already seen Western inroads upon their sovereignty and their economies. Islamists saw modern values such as women?s rights as a Western conspiracy accompanying the political and economic offensive and turned to their own traditions as a cultural reaction. For an early example, when Napoleon came to Egypt, the wearing of the veil increased as a reaction to the French presence.

Men were prominent in the early struggles to improve the condition of women in Islamic society, but from the beginning women, too, were involved. For the first time in the history of Islam, the veil and other issues such as polygamy, divorce, and segregation were openly discussed in Middle Eastern society. Advocacy for women?s rights became widespread in the twentieth century. Modernization further improved women?s position. As women?s economic and social situation improved, ideologues struggled with how to reconcile the changes with Islamic law. Women figured more prominently in public life and took a role in the history-making nation building of Turkey and Tunisia, which led to further secularization and economic modernization.

But establishment Islam and Middle Eastern governments continue to cling to the law as the cornerstone of Islamic oppression of women. That it is still preserved almost intact signals the existence of enormously powerful Islamist and traditionalist forces. Calls for reformist interpretations such as stressing the ?egalitarian spirit of the Qur?an? and reshaping Sharia by reinterpreting the Qur?an mainly arose because of a rapidly changing economy and society experiencing the influence of the West. Legal reforms have targeted areas where the law was not egalitarian, such as divorce, polygamy, and marriage age. Some progress has been made: men must now justify their demand for divorce or practice of polygamy to the courts.
Political Islam

In recent decades the rise of political Islam has rolled back women?s rights and impoverished their lives across the region. Political Islam as a political movement arose in reaction to secular and progressive liberation movements, which had heightened egalitarianism and brought about cultural and intellectual advances. The political Islamic movement started to gather real power and to spread in the 1970s. During the 1980s it was supported and nurtured by Western governments, which found it useful in Cold War conflicts and in opposing progressive movements in the region. Key features of political Islam included opposition to women?s freedom and civil liberties, and to their freedom of expression in the cultural and personal domains. It supports the enforcement of brutal laws and traditions, including beheading and genocide. In Iran, the Sudan, Pakistan, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, Islamic regimes transformed societies in general and women?s homes in particular into prisons. For women confinement, exclusion from many fields of work and education, and brutal treatment became the law of the land. In addition, the misogynist rhetoric of political Islam in the social sphere implicitly sanctioned male violence towards women.
Second-Class Citizens

At present, women throughout the region are second-class citizens, being excluded from the rights, privileges, and security that all citizens of a country should enjoy. Unjust laws, discriminatory constitutions, and biased mentalities that do not recognize women as equal citizens violate women?s rights. A national, that is, a citizen, is defined as someone who is a native or naturalized member of a state. A national is entitled to the rights and privileges allotted to a free individual and to protection from the state. However, in no country in the Middle East or Northern Africa are women granted full citizenship; in every country they are second-class citizens. In many cases, the laws and codes of the state work to reinforce gender inequality and exclusion from nationality. The state is used to strengthen Islamic and tribal/familial control over women, making them even more dependent on these institutions. Unlike in the West, where the individual is the basic unit of the state, it is the family that is the basis of Arab states. This means that the state is primarily concerned with the protection of the family rather than the protection of the family?s individual members. Within this framework, the rights of women are expressed solely in their roles as wives and mothers. State discrimination against women in the family is expressed through, among other things, unjust family laws that deny women equal access to divorce and child custody.

Throughout the region, Arab women who marry foreigners are denied the right to extend citizenship to their husbands. Furthermore only fathers, not mothers, can independently pass citizenship to their children. In many cases, where a woman has been widowed, divorced, or abandoned, or if her husband is not a national in the country where the couple reside, her children have no access to citizenship or its rights. These rights include access to education, health care, land ownership, and inheritance. There is no such obstacle to men who wish to extend their nationality to their wives and children. This inequality not only denies women their right as citizens; it also denies children their basic rights as human beings.

If the law is designed to protect women only within their role in the family, it will fail to protect those who need protection from their families. By failing to protect women from violence such as domestic abuse, rape, marital rape, and honor killing, the state fails to provide the rights available to a full citizen. In fact, by ignoring issues of gender-based violence and granting lenient punishments to the perpetrators of violence against women, the state actually reinforces women?s exclusion from the rights of citizens.

Family laws based on Sharia frequently require women to obtain a male relative?s permission to undertake activities that should be theirs by right. This increases the dependency women have on their male family members in economic, social, and legal matters. For example, in many Arab countries adult women must obtain the permission of their fathers, brothers, or husbands in order to attain a passport, travel outside of their country, start a business, receive a bank loan, open a bank account, or get married.
What Is to Be Done?

Given Islam?s intrinsic animosity to equality between the sexes, to women?s rights, and toward women?s roles in society, how can the condition of women in Islamic societies be improved? The answer must be to eliminate political Islam as a precondition to any improvements in the status of women in the Middle East. The social system is based on Islamic misogyny and backwardness, and Middle Eastern women will have no cause to regret its passing.

The twenty-first century must be the century that rids itself of political Islam. I believe that this movement will begin in Iran. In Iran, women presented the first and the most effective challenge to the Islamic regime by courageously questioning the right of Islamic authority to define the conditions of their lives. The most hopeful signs and the most remarkable force for change continue to come directly from Iranian women, both in Iran and in exile.

As ever, the the key to Middle Eastern women?s liberation is secularism and the establishment of egalitarian political systems. Secularism has been and continues to be a prerequisite for women?s liberation in the Middle East. Our objectives must be:

*

the complete separation of religion from the state;
*

the elimination of all religious and religiously inspired concepts from laws;
*

definition of religion as the private affair of individuals;
*

removal of references to a person?s religion in laws, on identity cards, and in official papers;
*

a ban on ascribing any religion to people, whether individually or collectively, in official documents and the media;
*

elimination of religion from education; and
*

a ban on teaching religious subjects and dogma and on presenting purely religious interpretations of secular subjects in schools.

Why should Islam be eliminated from the operations of the state instead of modernized and reformed? If someone says that slavery, fascism, or patriarchy can become humane and modernized, I would ask them why they should not be abandoned altogether. In the view of advocates of Islamic reform, if Islam allowed a woman to go to school in a knee-length skirt or to become a judge as long as she does not speak of her sexuality, then it would be acceptable. This is not the improvement that we deserve. Attempts to modernize or reform Islam will only prolong the age-old oppression and subordination of women. Rather than modernize Islam, it must be caged, just as humanity caged Christianity two centuries ago. Islam must become subordinate to secularism and the secular state.http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kamguian_23_4.htm

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
1. Let me ask this again, are there any women mentioned in the Koran?

2. How so? From what he told me, its more a part of a religous practice. He said only sinners enter the bathroom with their right leg.

3. Thats what he told me... bear in mind that he was VERY orthodox.

I doubt he is wrong. His father is a cleric and he has this really high Islamic degree... I forget what its called.. he spoke very little English because he only knew Arabic and he has been studying Islam for the better part of his life. Anyhoo, I don't know where he is now.

Thats interesting about Mary being the only women mentioned in the Koran (the mother of Jesus Christ right??), on that note I've always been curious on how the Koran looks at Jesus Christ. Who does the Koran say he is?

Hello MadMaluDawg.

This should answer your question in more detail. As per my knowledge, there are 24 female personalities mentioned in the Quran. Hatim has already mention Marium, or Mary.

Some of the women mentioned in the Quran are:
Hawaa' - Eve. She serves as a symbol of equality, a mate for Adam, a matched pair, an equal
Umm-Musa - Mother of Moses. She exemplifies the nurturing spirit of a mother.
Bilqis - Queen of Sheeba. She shows the inherent qualities of women of being diplomatic, tactical, cunning, etc.
Hannah - Anne. Mother of Mary.
Marium - Mary.

Stepping in the bathroom with your left foot or the right foot is NOT part of Islamic Law. Its part of ettiquette practiced by some cultures.

No, one does not bend slightly to the left, or right, or forwards, or backwards when entering the bathroom.

I dont know how you could construe these actions as part of a religious practice. If it had to do with cleanliness, one could understand. But why would God care whether you hop around in the bathroom or go around in circles?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Sultan
With the increasing number of Muslims on this forum, and the rising anti-Islam sentiment amongst some members of this forum, I believe it is advisable to correct misinformation about the religion and beliefs that some may have.

This thread can serve as a bridge between the two sides, even though there shouldnt exist "two sides".

I ask the Muslims to respond to civil questions posed by members with proper reference to the Quran and Sunnah, preferably with a link to the specified source.

I ask the non-Muslims who have issues about the religion to pose civil question regarding the "religious beliefs" and not cultural values and traditions of certain countries which can be vastly different from the teachings of the religion.

Finally, I would also request the mods to sticky this thread so we can have one source of information regarding the religion. If this is the wrong forum for this thread, I will move it to where it would be appropriate and would like the mods to advise where this thread should go.

Edit 1
So far, the following issues have been discussed:

*Apostasy
*Jalabeeb
*Dressing
*Attar
*Concept of Hijab
*Interaction between opposite genders
*Concept of Mehram
*Jesus as a Prophet of Islam
*Islamic view of Judaism and Christianity.
*Prohibition of alcohol, pork, fornication.
*Jizyah
*Interest
*Homicide bombers
*Marriage of the Prophet (S.A) to Hazrat Aisha (R.A)
*Sources of Islamic Law
*Honor Killings
*Concept of Shariah
*Concept of Jinns
*Islam and Evolution
*Contribution of Islam to science.
*Books of Hadith

Muslim contributors to this thread
0marTheZealot
magomago
nafs
MegaWorks

Words of appreciation for this thread from:
dahunan
tallest1
sixone
kotss
HotChic
dszd0g

Please PM me if I missed out anyone. I would also appreciate it if anyone who's views have changed for the better to PM me and let me know. I will keep that information in confidence.

Thank you.

Edit 2

Please PM me on how to make this thread better. Would appreciate a sticky.

Topic Title: The Islamic thread
Topic Summary: Pose your questions about Islam here

Good thread Sultan.

I do have a question:

Is there a super major difference between Islams and Muslims or is it more like the minor difference between Catholics and Christians???

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Sultan
With the increasing number of Muslims on this forum, and the rising anti-Islam sentiment amongst some members of this forum, I believe it is advisable to correct misinformation about the religion and beliefs that some may have.

This thread can serve as a bridge between the two sides, even though there shouldnt exist "two sides".

I ask the Muslims to respond to civil questions posed by members with proper reference to the Quran and Sunnah, preferably with a link to the specified source.

I ask the non-Muslims who have issues about the religion to pose civil question regarding the "religious beliefs" and not cultural values and traditions of certain countries which can be vastly different from the teachings of the religion.

Finally, I would also request the mods to sticky this thread so we can have one source of information regarding the religion. If this is the wrong forum for this thread, I will move it to where it would be appropriate and would like the mods to advise where this thread should go.

Edit 1
So far, the following issues have been discussed:

*Apostasy
*Jalabeeb
*Dressing
*Attar
*Concept of Hijab
*Interaction between opposite genders
*Concept of Mehram
*Jesus as a Prophet of Islam
*Islamic view of Judaism and Christianity.
*Prohibition of alcohol, pork, fornication.
*Jizyah
*Interest
*Homicide bombers
*Marriage of the Prophet (S.A) to Hazrat Aisha (R.A)
*Sources of Islamic Law
*Honor Killings
*Concept of Shariah
*Concept of Jinns
*Islam and Evolution
*Contribution of Islam to science.
*Books of Hadith

Muslim contributors to this thread
0marTheZealot
magomago
nafs
MegaWorks

Words of appreciation for this thread from:
dahunan
tallest1
sixone
kotss
HotChic
dszd0g

Please PM me if I missed out anyone. I would also appreciate it if anyone who's views have changed for the better to PM me and let me know. I will keep that information in confidence.

Thank you.

Edit 2

Please PM me on how to make this thread better. Would appreciate a sticky.

Topic Title: The Islamic thread
Topic Summary: Pose your questions about Islam here

Good thread Sultan.

I do have a question:

Is there a super major difference between Islams and Muslims or is it more like the minor difference between Catholics and Christians???

Muslim in arabic language means one that has bought islam. Islam is a common noun meaning peace. It can be taken as a proper noun meaning the religion of muslims...

Well there are about 70+ sects of Islam, Sunnis beleive in the end of Gods disciple on the Earth after Mohammed's death.

Shiahs beleive that a leader is there from Mohammeds SAW's progeny from his daughter fatema AS and Ali AS, his uncles's son....And they beleive that there is a guide - the imam today to show them the right way. Again there are many Shiah sects which differenciate between the imams and guides. You can take the difference between the two as the difference between catholics and protestants, but this divide right after the death of the prophet SAW when Abu Bakr and Omar assumed the khilafat ignoring the Prophet's heir apparent Ali....Ali AS assumed the physical khilafat after Osman the third Caliph according to the Sunnis. There were divisions amongst the muslims with Ali on one side and the Banul Ummayad, the prophets distant relative on the other....Then about 40 years later Banul Ummayah assumed the whole khilafat and totally ignored the laws of islam - drinking and all....He also killed the prophet's SAW grandson and Ali AS son is a tragic battle where Hussain AS had 72 followers versus thousands from the Banul Ummayad side.....And then some Shiahs beleive in different Imams though they are all Imam Hussains AS decendants.

Then there were the khuwarijis who were formed when they deserted Ali AS army after the battle with the Umayyads. They were later almost totally wiped out in a battle with ALI AS....

A new kind of sect the wahabis has recently emerged in Saudi who take every word of the Quran literally and they have spawned figures like Osama Bin Ladin.

You will not beleive but the only thing all muslims beleive is that there is one God and mohammed is His last messenger....They also beleive in the Quran as being the word of Allah but other than that some sects may have totally contridictary beleifs as opposed to the other.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Sultan, I have a couple of questions.
How many wives did Muhammad have? Are an of them mentioned in the Quran? Are there any women mentioned by name in the Quran?
Is it true that Muslims must always step into the bathroom with their left leg first else they are considered sinners (I have a very orthodox Muslim friend who says this). Is it also true that when Muslims goto the bathroom they must bend slightly to the left?

1 Mohammed SAW had 14 wives...None have been mentioned by name.

2 Thats part of bathroom etiquette.

3 Rubbish!

1. Let me ask this again, are there any women mentioned in the Koran?

2. How so? From what he told me, its more a part of a religous practice. He said only sinners enter the bathroom with their right leg.

3. Thats what he told me... bear in mind that he was VERY orthodox.

1. Yes. Marium or Mary...There is a whole chapter named after her.

2. No its bathroom etiqutte....Tell him he is wrong.

3. Im orthadox to but there is NO reason why you should bend towards the left. Thats just made up stuff.

I doubt he is wrong. His father is a cleric and he has this really high Islamic degree... I forget what its called.. he spoke very little English because he only knew Arabic and he has been studying Islam for the better part of his life. Anyhoo, I don't know where he is now.

Thats interesting about Mary being the only women mentioned in the Koran (the mother of Jesus Christ right??), on that note I've always been curious on how the Koran looks at Jesus Christ. Who does the Koran say he is?

Jesus was a prohpet according to Islam. Islam beleives in all prophets that are mentioned in the Gospel. However he was only a prophet and not a son of God.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Islam gives more rights to women than any other group that exists.

How so?

IMO western culture is a mar on the term "civilization" To you civilization is something completely different to what it is to us. So there is NO point discussing what is right and what is wrong based on the comments of one. To you your thoughts and to us ours.

Let me get this right - the child that talks about mass genocide of entire people and believes that people can have children with animals is saying that 'western culture' is a 'mar' on civilization. But let's just ignore that 'western culture' and 'western civilization' has advanced the world far more than any other culture and civilization and especially your oppressive culture and civilization.

Oh well. Continue on wanting to murder millions of people. Must be one of the positive points of your culture for you.

Women Rights. Tell me when Women got the right to vote in america? In Islam 1400 years ago women were equals of men. Equal yes but the are different. Physically and mentally they are different. There are different things as to who can do that better...Just because they have been instructed to wear parda for their own sake means they have no freedom? Islam doesnt stop from haing sex. Sex and marraige is a very important part of Islamic law. For every need we have there are ways of fullfilling those needs.

Let ME get this right - the old man that talk about something that no one has said thinks he is superior to all other cultures in the world! Proove what you say I said. I never said ANYTHING about mass genocide of people nor did I ever say that animals and man can have children...

And hell the west maybe more advanced in some ways but it lags far behind in others. Advanced - YES! Civilized - NO! Just because america has control of the whole world does not make them superior to any other people of this world nor does it give them the right to say that their culture is more superior to anyone elses. In what way is american civilization more advanced than any other? For treating prisinors with abuse? For stripping them up and sexually harrasing them for FUN? For detaining "detainees" for months on end without any proof what so ever? To go and kill as many hundreds of people just for the sake of "invisible" proof of threat to national security? To kill as many hundreds and thousands of innocents to avenge the death of a few hundred? To stop people from leading better lives just for the sake of political power? Sad to know the difference from your point of view between the life of an american and that of a non.

One Question. Do you beleive in GOD(s)?

Islam and the Liberation of Women in the Middle East: Separation of Mosque and State is the Only Answer
by Azam Kamguian

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 4.

Women?s status in Middle Eastern societies has aroused great interest recently. What role do Islamic ideology and practice play in the oppression of women in the region and other societies where Islam holds sway?

Few would argue that the situation of Middle Eastern women can be understood without reference to Islam. Although no two Middle Eastern countries have identical legal-religious systems, women are second-class citizens in all of them. But the position of women in the region cannot be understood without a thorough appreciation of the economic and political contexts in which they live, in addition to Islam?s long-standing influence.

There are many schools of thought in this debate. One group denies that the great majority of women are any more oppressed than are non-Middle Eastern women. A second group says that oppression is real but extrinsic to Islam and the Qur?an?which, they say, intended gender equality but has been undermined by Arabic patriarchy and foreign influence.

Among intellectuals and in the academic world, any attempt to blame Islam for women?s oppression is stamped as Orientalism. Those who defend Islam against Western critiques focus on proving the ?progressive? nature of the Qur?an, Hadith, and Sharia, either by denying the low status of women in Middle Eastern societies, or by attributing it to pre-Islamic traditions and the contemporary political Islamic movement.

Many feminists and academic intellectuals apologize for Islam by saying that such practices as veiling women and female genital mutilation are not restricted to Middle Eastern societies. Some say that women who wear make-up in the West are just as oppressed, but it is a Postmodernist, neo-colonialist kind of oppression. They say that all religions regard women as inferior. They fail to take into account that Islam is largely unrestricted by secularism and the secular states that in the West have restricted Christianity?s power over women?s lives. This attitude is obvious in the following words of Nawal El Saadawi:

I?ve noticed that many people including professors of religion and Islamic studies, pick up one verse and say that in the Qur?an, God allowed men to beat women. They don?t compare it to other verses. They also don?t compare the Qur?an to the Bible. If you do, you will find the Bible more oppressive to women.1

According to El Saadawi, women in the Middle East are oppressed not because they live under the rule of Islam or belong to the East, but as a result of the patriarchal class system that has dominated the world for thousands of years. In her view, the struggle for women?s civil liberties, individual freedom, and secularism have no significance. In this discourse, patriarchy is used as a blanket term to disguise Islam?s role in the oppression of women. Every aspect of women?s subordination in the Middle East is inaccurately labeled as the result of patriarchy. If Islam has no effect on women?s status, why is the position of women in the Middle East worse than in any other part of the world?
Islamic Resistance to Women?s Rights

Historically, Islam has resisted women?s rights, secularism, and modernization. Dramatic differences between the East and non-Muslim West emerged in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Economic and social changes, along with the impact of exposure to Western culture, gave rise to forces within Middle Eastern societies that favored changes in the condition of women. Starting in the early nineteenth century, the process of change set in motion by Western influence led to broadly positive outcomes, as mechanisms for controlling women and excluding them from major domains of activity in their society were gradually dismantled.

At first this didn?t involve legal changes, but rather such things as education. Western economic penetration of the Middle East and the exposure of Middle Eastern societies to Western political thought and ideas did little to dismantle either Islamic law or the backward social institutions oppressive to women. Changes in Islamic law pertaining to women, especially changes to law set forth in the Qur?an, have met with considerable resistance. The leaders of nationalistic factions viewed any proposed changes in the status of women in society as Western intrusion into their last sphere of control. They had already seen Western inroads upon their sovereignty and their economies. Islamists saw modern values such as women?s rights as a Western conspiracy accompanying the political and economic offensive and turned to their own traditions as a cultural reaction. For an early example, when Napoleon came to Egypt, the wearing of the veil increased as a reaction to the French presence.

Men were prominent in the early struggles to improve the condition of women in Islamic society, but from the beginning women, too, were involved. For the first time in the history of Islam, the veil and other issues such as polygamy, divorce, and segregation were openly discussed in Middle Eastern society. Advocacy for women?s rights became widespread in the twentieth century. Modernization further improved women?s position. As women?s economic and social situation improved, ideologues struggled with how to reconcile the changes with Islamic law. Women figured more prominently in public life and took a role in the history-making nation building of Turkey and Tunisia, which led to further secularization and economic modernization.

But establishment Islam and Middle Eastern governments continue to cling to the law as the cornerstone of Islamic oppression of women. That it is still preserved almost intact signals the existence of enormously powerful Islamist and traditionalist forces. Calls for reformist interpretations such as stressing the ?egalitarian spirit of the Qur?an? and reshaping Sharia by reinterpreting the Qur?an mainly arose because of a rapidly changing economy and society experiencing the influence of the West. Legal reforms have targeted areas where the law was not egalitarian, such as divorce, polygamy, and marriage age. Some progress has been made: men must now justify their demand for divorce or practice of polygamy to the courts.
Political Islam

In recent decades the rise of political Islam has rolled back women?s rights and impoverished their lives across the region. Political Islam as a political movement arose in reaction to secular and progressive liberation movements, which had heightened egalitarianism and brought about cultural and intellectual advances. The political Islamic movement started to gather real power and to spread in the 1970s. During the 1980s it was supported and nurtured by Western governments, which found it useful in Cold War conflicts and in opposing progressive movements in the region. Key features of political Islam included opposition to women?s freedom and civil liberties, and to their freedom of expression in the cultural and personal domains. It supports the enforcement of brutal laws and traditions, including beheading and genocide. In Iran, the Sudan, Pakistan, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, Islamic regimes transformed societies in general and women?s homes in particular into prisons. For women confinement, exclusion from many fields of work and education, and brutal treatment became the law of the land. In addition, the misogynist rhetoric of political Islam in the social sphere implicitly sanctioned male violence towards women.
Second-Class Citizens

At present, women throughout the region are second-class citizens, being excluded from the rights, privileges, and security that all citizens of a country should enjoy. Unjust laws, discriminatory constitutions, and biased mentalities that do not recognize women as equal citizens violate women?s rights. A national, that is, a citizen, is defined as someone who is a native or naturalized member of a state. A national is entitled to the rights and privileges allotted to a free individual and to protection from the state. However, in no country in the Middle East or Northern Africa are women granted full citizenship; in every country they are second-class citizens. In many cases, the laws and codes of the state work to reinforce gender inequality and exclusion from nationality. The state is used to strengthen Islamic and tribal/familial control over women, making them even more dependent on these institutions. Unlike in the West, where the individual is the basic unit of the state, it is the family that is the basis of Arab states. This means that the state is primarily concerned with the protection of the family rather than the protection of the family?s individual members. Within this framework, the rights of women are expressed solely in their roles as wives and mothers. State discrimination against women in the family is expressed through, among other things, unjust family laws that deny women equal access to divorce and child custody.

Throughout the region, Arab women who marry foreigners are denied the right to extend citizenship to their husbands. Furthermore only fathers, not mothers, can independently pass citizenship to their children. In many cases, where a woman has been widowed, divorced, or abandoned, or if her husband is not a national in the country where the couple reside, her children have no access to citizenship or its rights. These rights include access to education, health care, land ownership, and inheritance. There is no such obstacle to men who wish to extend their nationality to their wives and children. This inequality not only denies women their right as citizens; it also denies children their basic rights as human beings.

If the law is designed to protect women only within their role in the family, it will fail to protect those who need protection from their families. By failing to protect women from violence such as domestic abuse, rape, marital rape, and honor killing, the state fails to provide the rights available to a full citizen. In fact, by ignoring issues of gender-based violence and granting lenient punishments to the perpetrators of violence against women, the state actually reinforces women?s exclusion from the rights of citizens.

Family laws based on Sharia frequently require women to obtain a male relative?s permission to undertake activities that should be theirs by right. This increases the dependency women have on their male family members in economic, social, and legal matters. For example, in many Arab countries adult women must obtain the permission of their fathers, brothers, or husbands in order to attain a passport, travel outside of their country, start a business, receive a bank loan, open a bank account, or get married.
What Is to Be Done?

Given Islam?s intrinsic animosity to equality between the sexes, to women?s rights, and toward women?s roles in society, how can the condition of women in Islamic societies be improved? The answer must be to eliminate political Islam as a precondition to any improvements in the status of women in the Middle East. The social system is based on Islamic misogyny and backwardness, and Middle Eastern women will have no cause to regret its passing.

The twenty-first century must be the century that rids itself of political Islam. I believe that this movement will begin in Iran. In Iran, women presented the first and the most effective challenge to the Islamic regime by courageously questioning the right of Islamic authority to define the conditions of their lives. The most hopeful signs and the most remarkable force for change continue to come directly from Iranian women, both in Iran and in exile.

As ever, the the key to Middle Eastern women?s liberation is secularism and the establishment of egalitarian political systems. Secularism has been and continues to be a prerequisite for women?s liberation in the Middle East. Our objectives must be:

*

the complete separation of religion from the state;
*

the elimination of all religious and religiously inspired concepts from laws;
*

definition of religion as the private affair of individuals;
*

removal of references to a person?s religion in laws, on identity cards, and in official papers;
*

a ban on ascribing any religion to people, whether individually or collectively, in official documents and the media;
*

elimination of religion from education; and
*

a ban on teaching religious subjects and dogma and on presenting purely religious interpretations of secular subjects in schools.

Why should Islam be eliminated from the operations of the state instead of modernized and reformed? If someone says that slavery, fascism, or patriarchy can become humane and modernized, I would ask them why they should not be abandoned altogether. In the view of advocates of Islamic reform, if Islam allowed a woman to go to school in a knee-length skirt or to become a judge as long as she does not speak of her sexuality, then it would be acceptable. This is not the improvement that we deserve. Attempts to modernize or reform Islam will only prolong the age-old oppression and subordination of women. Rather than modernize Islam, it must be caged, just as humanity caged Christianity two centuries ago. Islam must become subordinate to secularism and the secular state.http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kamguian_23_4.htm

Well obviosuly you will have figured out by now that the middle eastern society don't represent Islamic law. Infact none of them have even made a constant effort to even enforce any part of the Shariah.

And in Islam there are some rights which only women have and some which only men have. To a degree if you look closely some estreictions that have been imposed on either men or women are there for a reason if you look deeper....

Tell me: Why are there different women sports teams and different men sports teams? Yes becuase they are different. It wouldnt be fair if both of them had to compete on the same feild of competition.

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: hatim
Well obviosuly you will have figured out by now that the middle eastern society don't represent Islamic law. Infact none of them have even made a constant effort to even enforce any part of the Shariah.

And in Islam there are some rights which only women have and some which only men have. To a degree if you look closely some estreictions that have been imposed on either men or women are there for a reason if you look deeper....

You make it sound like you are defending treating men and women differently.

Tell me: Why are there different women sports teams and different men sports teams? Yes becuase they are different. It wouldnt be fair if both of them had to compete on the same feild of competition.

Yes, no one claims that men and women are the same physically. However, trying to extend physical differences to claim that they are different in many other ways is where things start to stretch a little thin. Sports is one of the few cases where men and women have to be treated differently. That does not mean men and women need to be treated differently at school, financially, or as a different class of citizens.

In the United states the overall literacy rate is 97%, and the rate for the genders is 97% male, 97% female (1999 numbers). That shows that at least as far as basic education the United States educates men and women equally. The United States still does not treat men and women equally. In a lot of professions, women make less than men when performing the same job. There still has not been a woman as president or vice president. When buying a car or dealing with a mechanic, women are often charged more.

In Iraq in 2003 the total literacy rate was 40.4%, where the rate was 55.9% male, and 24.4% female. When over twice the number of men can read/write as women, it shows that they are not treated equally.

Even in Turkey, where women are supposedly treated better than in a lot of other middle eastern countries from what I've read the total literacy rate is 86.5%, and it is 94.3% for men, and 78.7% for women.

One can never have a culture where men and women are equal if they are not educated equally.

 

[raildogg]

What really goes on in madrassah's?? hummmm ....?