The Islamic thread

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Islam gives more rights to women than any other group that exists.

How so?

IMO western culture is a mar on the term "civilization" To you civilization is something completely different to what it is to us. So there is NO point discussing what is right and what is wrong based on the comments of one. To you your thoughts and to us ours.

Let me get this right - the child that talks about mass genocide of entire people and believes that people can have children with animals is saying that 'western culture' is a 'mar' on civilization. But let's just ignore that 'western culture' and 'western civilization' has advanced the world far more than any other culture and civilization and especially your oppressive culture and civilization.

Oh well. Continue on wanting to murder millions of people. Must be one of the positive points of your culture for you.

Women Rights. Tell me when Women got the right to vote in america? In Islam 1400 years ago women were equals of men. Equal yes but the are different. Physically and mentally they are different. There are different things as to who can do that better...Just because they have been instructed to wear parda for their own sake means they have no freedom? Islam doesnt stop from haing sex. Sex and marraige is a very important part of Islamic law. For every need we have there are ways of fullfilling those needs.

Let ME get this right - the old man that talk about something that no one has said thinks he is superior to all other cultures in the world! Proove what you say I said. I never said ANYTHING about mass genocide of people nor did I ever say that animals and man can have children...

And hell the west maybe more advanced in some ways but it lags far behind in others. Advanced - YES! Civilized - NO! Just because america has control of the whole world does not make them superior to any other people of this world nor does it give them the right to say that their culture is more superior to anyone elses. In what way is american civilization more advanced than any other? For treating prisinors with abuse? For stripping them up and sexually harrasing them for FUN? For detaining "detainees" for months on end without any proof what so ever? To go and kill as many hundreds of people just for the sake of "invisible" proof of threat to national security? To kill as many hundreds and thousands of innocents to avenge the death of a few hundred? To stop people from leading better lives just for the sake of political power? Sad to know the difference from your point of view between the life of an american and that of a non.

One Question. Do you beleive in GOD(s)?

sure women and men are equal in Islamic countries, sure they are. Thats why women cant drive, go outside their house without a male companion, even do some of the basic things in life. Sure man, keep it coming.

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: dszd0g
One more question, what is the Tabari? Is there a good translation online?

Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari (838-923) apparently did a 30-volume commentary on the Quran.
I do not know if this work has much influence is Islam, but I came across a reference to it.

[Edit: fixed typo.]

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Topic Title: The Islamic thread
Topic Summary: Pose your questions about Islam here

Good thread Sultan.

I do have a question:

Is there a super major difference between Islams and Muslims or is it more like the minor difference between Catholics and Christians???

Muslim in arabic language means one that has bought islam. Islam is a common noun meaning peace. It can be taken as a proper noun meaning the religion of muslims...

Well there are about 70+ sects of Islam, Sunnis beleive in the end of Gods disciple on the Earth after Mohammed's death.

You can take the difference between the two as the difference between catholics and protestants,

You will not beleive but the only thing all muslims beleive is that there is one God and mohammed is His last messenger....They also beleive in the Quran as being the word of Allah but other than that some sects may have totally contridictary beleifs as opposed to the other.

Thanks, pretty close to what I thought.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hatim
Women Rights. Tell me when Women got the right to vote in america? In Islam 1400 years ago women were equals of men.

America is not the only part of the 'Western' world. So can women vote in your country? Oh, I forgot, your country is run by a military dictator so I guess NOBODY can vote. What a great culture!

Tell me when was the last time your culture produced anything of relevance to the entire world? I guess you could say extremists..

Equal yes but the are different. Physically and mentally they are different. There are different things as to who can do that better...Just because they have been instructed to wear parda for their own sake means they have no freedom? Islam doesnt stop from haing sex. Sex and marraige is a very important part of Islamic law. For every need we have there are ways of fullfilling those needs.

Keep on trying to justify your discrimination of women.

Let ME get this right - the old man that talk about something that no one has said thinks he is superior to all other cultures in the world! Proove what you say I said. I never said ANYTHING about mass genocide of people nor did I ever say that animals and man can have children...

Yes you did. You said that you want to throw all homosexuals off of a cliff and then throw a rock on top of them, wanted to kill atheists, and you said that children in the US have sex with animals and have kids with them. This shows another problem with your culture - the lack of an education.

And hell the west maybe more advanced in some ways but it lags far behind in others. Advanced - YES! Civilized - NO! Just because america has control of the whole world does not make them superior to any other people of this world nor does it give them the right to say that their culture is more superior to anyone elses. In what way is american civilization more advanced than any other? For treating prisinors with abuse? For stripping them up and sexually harrasing them for FUN? For detaining "detainees" for months on end without any proof what so ever? To go and kill as many hundreds of people just for the sake of "invisible" proof of threat to national security? To kill as many hundreds and thousands of innocents to avenge the death of a few hundred? To stop people from leading better lives just for the sake of political power? Sad to know the difference from your point of view between the life of an american and that of a non.

The US is far more advanced and civilized than your part of the world. Your country does not even give the right to vote to its own people. Your country detains, tortures, and kills people as well while exporting extremists all around the globe.

I think that you need to read up about your own part of the world and the wonderful things that they are doing out there. It's clearly far more barbaric, cruel, uncivilized, and uneducated than the US.

One Question. Do you beleive in GOD(s)?

One Question. Are you really this stupid?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: raildogg
sure women and men are equal in Islamic countries, sure they are. Thats why women cant drive, go outside their house without a male companion, even do some of the basic things in life. Sure man, keep it coming.

but...but...EQUAL BUT DIFFERENT!

I like how he tried to equate human rights to professional sports teams. What a great argument!

This Hatim kid is hilarious. I wonder if he still thinks that people can have children with goats. :disgust:

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg
What really goes on in madrassah's?? hummmm ....?

My brother studied in a madrassah. Madrassah's teach the Quran, Islamic laws and values, Sunnah and Hadith. Additionally, Madrassah's ALSO teach math, science and other subjects, though not all madrassah's are capable of that.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg
sure women and men are equal in Islamic countries, sure they are. Thats why women cant drive, go outside their house without a male companion, even do some of the basic things in life. Sure man, keep it coming.

Since the vast majority of women in Islamic countries have no qualms, you can stop speaking for them. There are a few outspoken women, and their efforts are condusive to *maybe* correcting the establishment about Islamic laws. However, a few news stories at random does not speak for the majority of women population.

Moreover, the countries with Muslim majority populations do not represent Islamic teachings. If the women in these countries feel they have limited rights, then the government is not correctly implementing the Islamic system correctly.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: dszd0g
You make it sound like you are defending treating men and women differently.

Yes, no one claims that men and women are the same physically. However, trying to extend physical differences to claim that they are different in many other ways is where things start to stretch a little thin. Sports is one of the few cases where men and women have to be treated differently. That does not mean men and women need to be treated differently at school, financially, or as a different class of citizens.

In the United states the overall literacy rate is 97%, and the rate for the genders is 97% male, 97% female (1999 numbers). That shows that at least as far as basic education the United States educates men and women equally. The United States still does not treat men and women equally. In a lot of professions, women make less than men when performing the same job. There still has not been a woman as president or vice president. When buying a car or dealing with a mechanic, women are often charged more.

In Iraq in 2003 the total literacy rate was 40.4%, where the rate was 55.9% male, and 24.4% female. When over twice the number of men can read/write as women, it shows that they are not treated equally.

Even in Turkey, where women are supposedly treated better than in a lot of other middle eastern countries from what I've read the total literacy rate is 86.5%, and it is 94.3% for men, and 78.7% for women.

One can never have a culture where men and women are equal if they are not educated equally.

There is no need to defend the perspective of treating men and women differently. Islamic law has some rulings which are different for either gender. Both genders ARE different physiologically, emotionally, etc, etc, etc. They complement each other.

All Muslims are encouraged to learn and study and advance knowledge, regardless of gender. The literacy gap between women and men in countries of Muslim majority is a sad fact, but does not represent the teachings of Islam. Many countries are making progressive strides to change this imbalance, an example being Malaysia.

Pakistan has had a woman Prime Minister, so has Bangladesh. The United States has never had a Woman head of state. That does not mean either country is doing well or worse in case of gender equality.

A common misperception amongst the Western world is that women are forced to veil themselves. That is such a ridiculous idea. Why do you think Muslim women object to French laws restricting the scarf? Coz the Islamic Republic of France is forcing them to do so? The article above also briefly mentions the scarf issue. This is a very cheap way to put the religion to bad name.

If you have any particular question about gender specific laws, please do ask. Religion is based on reasoning, and Islamic laws are based on very sound reasons.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg
sure women and men are equal in Islamic countries, sure they are. Thats why women cant drive, go outside their house without a male companion, even do some of the basic things in life. Sure man, keep it coming.

Since the vast majority of women in Islamic countries have no qualms, you can stop speaking for them. There are a few outspoken women, and their efforts are condusive to *maybe* correcting the establishment about Islamic laws. However, a few news stories at random does not speak for the majority of women population.

Moreover, the countries with Muslim majority populations do not represent Islamic teachings. If the women in these countries feel they have limited rights, then the government is not correctly implementing the Islamic system correctly.

Maybe they aren't as outspoken because of oppression against them as well. Even if one woman is against it, which you at least admit, then women should not be discriminated against. You should also not speak for women there. There is no justification for discrimination, racism, and so on.

Bottom line is that in 'Islamic countries', the culture is far more oppressive, uneducated, and so on than the 'western' world. It doesn't matter if they are following or are not following certain ideas - what matters is what they are practicing now...at least in terms of Hatim's argument.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg
sure women and men are equal in Islamic countries, sure they are. Thats why women cant drive, go outside their house without a male companion, even do some of the basic things in life. Sure man, keep it coming.

Since the vast majority of women in Islamic countries have no qualms, you can stop speaking for them. There are a few outspoken women, and their efforts are condusive to *maybe* correcting the establishment about Islamic laws. However, a few news stories at random does not speak for the majority of women population.

Moreover, the countries with Muslim majority populations do not represent Islamic teachings. If the women in these countries feel they have limited rights, then the government is not correctly implementing the Islamic system correctly.

Sorry, just because the "majority" of women that have grown up in the Brainwashed Society that they should be treated as dirt doesn't make it right.

Not speaking for them, speaking for humanity.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: dszd0g

Originally posted by: hatim
Well obviosuly you will have figured out by now that the middle eastern society don't represent Islamic law. Infact none of them have even made a constant effort to even enforce any part of the Shariah.

And in Islam there are some rights which only women have and some which only men have. To a degree if you look closely some estreictions that have been imposed on either men or women are there for a reason if you look deeper....

You make it sound like you are defending treating men and women differently.

Tell me: Why are there different women sports teams and different men sports teams? Yes becuase they are different. It wouldnt be fair if both of them had to compete on the same feild of competition.

Yes, no one claims that men and women are the same physically. However, trying to extend physical differences to claim that they are different in many other ways is where things start to stretch a little thin. Sports is one of the few cases where men and women have to be treated differently. That does not mean men and women need to be treated differently at school, financially, or as a different class of citizens.

In the United states the overall literacy rate is 97%, and the rate for the genders is 97% male, 97% female (1999 numbers). That shows that at least as far as basic education the United States educates men and women equally. The United States still does not treat men and women equally. In a lot of professions, women make less than men when performing the same job. There still has not been a woman as president or vice president. When buying a car or dealing with a mechanic, women are often charged more.

In Iraq in 2003 the total literacy rate was 40.4%, where the rate was 55.9% male, and 24.4% female. When over twice the number of men can read/write as women, it shows that they are not treated equally.

Even in Turkey, where women are supposedly treated better than in a lot of other middle eastern countries from what I've read the total literacy rate is 86.5%, and it is 94.3% for men, and 78.7% for women.

One can never have a culture where men and women are equal if they are not educated equally.

The university im studyiying has both male and female students. The prophet once said "To gain knowledge is obligatory on every muslim man and every muslim woman" ...In school, in their financial status they are equal and have the SAME rights and are not regarded as secondary citizens. Then only difference from current western society is family resposibilities. Again even in the US there are still more working men than women...But women have not been stopped from working. They have theior freewill in anything. They can get a divorce. Again in divorce a man will give some of his dealth to the women...And the women no matter how rich will not be entitled to give anything....

And literacy definately has more to do with culture than religion. In my coutry hardly anyone selnds their daugters to school. This is more true for the poorer...Apparently they think its not important for women to get education as they will be working at home. But then it was the prophet who told both men and women to get knowledge.

And yes women are encouraged to work. However more from home. And who says women cannot drive. Thats just a stupid law thought up by some stupid people who think they know a lot about islam.....And they ARE allowed their free will....And have the same rights as any man...Theres nothing a man can do that a women can't.....

And physical differences to equate to mental differences. Man and woman have had different roles since the pre historic stone age. There are so many things that women must do and some which men...Just because you donont see more women on the street working doesnt mean that they are oppressed. Thats part of Islamic culture. Men are supposed to earn bread while women are supposed to take care of things at home...Physical differences = emotional differences = different roles

Any way God has not created us to just live life as it comes. There is nothing in Islam that says that God prefers men over women. Nothing! They will both be treated equally after death so why would they be treated unfairly now. We have been created in the end worship God. So obviosly the ideal Islamic society would be the most suitable for this to take place. SEX is not everything. Thats just an instint. A man may only have sex with his wife and vice versa...And honeslty by wearning mini skirts and roaming topless only attracts men. So point of that? When sex outside marriage is forbidden. Even men have restrictions on what they can wear and what they can do. But you must all agree with me that men are more crazy about sex then women. Hell why would a man want to have sex with a women outside marraige and vice versa if his/her husband/wife can satisfy all their needs??? And in Islam having sex with your wife is sawab or good...Women working right longside men wearing nothing but half torn skirts will do nothing more than attract the men's attraction....And then sexual instincts can do almost anything. How easy would it be to seduce. Women are not forbidden to work but importantly must keep themselves well covered. In Islam SEX is such a big sin. And God has given us other ways to satisy this need. He was giving us laws that would stop us from committing this sin.

And remember that in the Prophets SAW time there was no "voting" system. He was the head of state. SO this women rights in voting doesnt even start there. Making up stuff urself just because you one thinkgs its right is haram in islam. Same way is not letting women drive. Its just absurd...

And madrassahs...Some madrassahs: You just learn the Quran Sunnah and Hadith and forget about what they mean. Just so you know what was said. Some however deal with the foundations of Islam it self. Philosophy, law, history, meaning of the Quran, and thats in Arabic....To add to that they have Maths, Sciences, Social sciences, finances...Thats the regular classe,

And personally no women in my part of the world has any problem with rights. Again its culture...Women uneducated, men working earning $2 a day...And children working too...Sad really....But thats more in the rural areas.......It is just the way their customs treat them...not law...And certainly not Islam.

And yes you can just go on rambling about women rights in the eastern world to make you feel better....Because there is no reason why a women in Islam woulld be as oppressed as sex symbols like in the US.....

And you feel Bush is a good president? :/ If not again you ae being oppressed. Because one person is against the government. :/ :/


And Discrimination: Even if differenciate between men and women in sports it would still be discrimination. You will not let a man play in a women's team just because he is a man and not women. Thats DISCRIMINATION....Why? Becasue they arephysically different and emotionally different...And to each there are things which he/she can do better. So if God created us different the why should men try to imitate women and women try to imitate men? If you take out SEX from the american society or half it...You will see more women covering themselves up to avoid the gazes of men...Its only natural....The same way a small boy would not let any girl stare at him.....

 

[0roo0roo]

in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg
sure women and men are equal in Islamic countries, sure they are. Thats why women cant drive, go outside their house without a male companion, even do some of the basic things in life. Sure man, keep it coming.

Since the vast majority of women in Islamic countries have no qualms, you can stop speaking for them. There are a few outspoken women, and their efforts are condusive to *maybe* correcting the establishment about Islamic laws. However, a few news stories at random does not speak for the majority of women population.

Moreover, the countries with Muslim majority populations do not represent Islamic teachings. If the women in these countries feel they have limited rights, then the government is not correctly implementing the Islamic system correctly.

Sorry, just because the "majority" of women that have grown up in the Brainwashed Society that they should be treated as dirt doesn't make it right.

Not speaking for them, speaking for humanity.

Sorry, just because you've grown up in the Brainwashed Society that teaches women are oppressed in Islam doesnt make you right. As you can see, French Muslim women have campaigned for their right to wear the scarf. Does that imply that they are living in a Brainwashed Society as well? :roll:

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

Have you read the Old Testament?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

Who ar you to decide whats barbaric and what not? Gods a better judge...What do you understand? You live in a brainwashed society who say killing millions of innocents is freedom! You seriosly are blind!

I say sex outside marraige is barbaric!! America houses millions of barbarians!!

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

Have you read the Old Testament?

No. Why?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hatim
Who ar you to decide whats barbaric and what not? Gods a better judge...What do you understand? You live in a brainwashed society who say killing millions of innocents is freedom! You seriosly are blind!

I say sex outside marraige is barbaric!! America houses millions of barbarians!!

OK, if you think that mass genocide isn't barbaric then you can go ahead and believe that in your backwards culture and country.

You can think whatever you want is barbaric or not, but the simple fact is that most of the educated and civilized world likely thinks that your thoughts are disgusting and barbaric. You see, mass genocide is not really popular with people that are educated, civilized, and so on.

I can think of anything I want as barbaric. It's a freedom that we have in this culture, unlike your culture where you can't even vote and must be oppressed. And murdering children, atheists/agnostics, and homosexuals is barbaric and cruel to me and any other civilized person.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

Have you read the Old Testament?

No. Why?

Well, if you want to talk about intolerance and cruelty the Old Testament would make a very good case study in both.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

Have you read the Old Testament?

No. Why?

Well, if you want to talk about intolerance and cruelty the Old Testament would make a very good case study in both.

Absolutely. It falls under the category of 'thousand plus year old documents' and such.

Would you want your laws to be direct and literal from the Old Testament or Islamic Law?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Who ar you to decide whats barbaric and what not? Gods a better judge...What do you understand? You live in a brainwashed society who say killing millions of innocents is freedom! You seriosly are blind!

I say sex outside marraige is barbaric!! America houses millions of barbarians!!

OK, if you think that mass genocide isn't barbaric then you can go ahead and believe that in your backwards culture and country.

You can think whatever you want is barbaric or not, but the simple fact is that most of the educated and civilized world likely thinks that your thoughts are disgusting and barbaric. You see, mass genocide is not really popular with people that are educated, civilized, and so on.

I can think of anything I want as barbaric. It's a freedom that we have in this culture, unlike your culture where you can't even vote and must be oppressed. And murdering children, atheists/agnostics, and homosexuals is barbaric and cruel to me and any other civilized person.

What is this mass genocide you refer to? What does it have to do with Islam?

Also, many of the oppressors who refuse to allow people the vote in the Middle East were put in power by the USA. For example, Saddam Hussein. We also have child murderers right here at home. People who murder homosexuals. Until very recently, historically, lynchings were common. Slavery. We have a penal system that incarcerates 25% of the world's prison population out of only 5% of the world's total population. We are the only modern industrialized nation to still use the death penalty. We are the only nation in the world that refused to sign the UN treaty banning the use of napalm.

People in glass houses...

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: BBond
What is this mass genocide you refer to? What does it have to do with Islam?

I'm referring to Hatim's desires to murder and execute all atheists and homosexuals.

Also, many of the oppressors who refuse to allow people the vote in the Middle East were put in power by the USA. For example, Saddam Hussein. We also have child murderers right here at home. People who murder homosexuals. Until very recently, historically, lynchings were common. Slavery. We have a penal system that incarcerates 25% of the world's prison population out of only 5% of the world's total population. We are the only modern industrialized nation to still use the death penalty. We are the only nation in the world that refused to sign the UN treaty banning the use of napalm.

The US definitely has to improve upon itself as well, but that is not a reason to ignore atrocities elsewhere, especially when these atrocities are far more severe as well as happening in today's time.

People in glass houses...

Should accept as well as apply criticism. Of course the degree of these problems is completely different...

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

OK.

 

[Aimster]

I think educated people will not follow by laws that do not make sense in today's time.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
in the end the claim that women and men are different is just an excuse for oppression through islamic law. in the end it must be competely separated from the state. it is no basis for any decent law ...and the apologists just need to stop it. its like trying to reform slavery, its just better to throw it out. islamic law is fundamentally intolerant of atheists/agnostics..any religion other then the few it mentions(not that its that tolerant of those either)..and of course homosexuals. it should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Any set of laws completely derived from thousand plus year old documents is likely to be barbaric and cruel in today's time.

From what I have read of Islamic Law, it is intolerant and very cruel.

Have you read the Old Testament?

No. Why?

Well, if you want to talk about intolerance and cruelty the Old Testament would make a very good case study in both.

Absolutely. It falls under the category of 'thousand plus year old documents' and such.

Would you want your laws to be direct and literal from the Old Testament or Islamic Law?

Well, the people who are taking credit for getting George Bush elected believe in a literal translation of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. They believe every word of the Bible is the word directly from God. So they embrace the barbarity, right? Maybe that's why they find it so easy to excuse the barbarity America is committing right now in Iraq.

You single out all of Islam for criticism when every religion has its radicals and in the hands of radicals every religion has, is, and will again be barbaric.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: hatim
Who ar you to decide whats barbaric and what not? Gods a better judge...What do you understand? You live in a brainwashed society who say killing millions of innocents is freedom! You seriosly are blind!

I say sex outside marraige is barbaric!! America houses millions of barbarians!!

OK, if you think that mass genocide isn't barbaric then you can go ahead and believe that in your backwards culture and country.

You can think whatever you want is barbaric or not, but the simple fact is that most of the educated and civilized world likely thinks that your thoughts are disgusting and barbaric. You see, mass genocide is not really popular with people that are educated, civilized, and so on.

I can think of anything I want as barbaric. It's a freedom that we have in this culture, unlike your culture where you can't even vote and must be oppressed. And murdering children, atheists/agnostics, and homosexuals is barbaric and cruel to me and any other civilized person.

Made up stuff...Mass enocided LOL!!

You are not civilized btw. You donot know how to go about a debate even. You can live in the darkness of barbarism for all I care....And then when I think what I want you want to "eliminate" me!!

And what about the millions of people your government has killed in the name of freeom? Is that "civilized" and "educated" ?? If not why don't you do something about it? Thats because you are oppressed!!