The Joe Biden sexual assault allegation

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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,396
4,632
136
Again this in the court of public opinion. Reade won’t get anyone to go through his senate records. At this point, I’d say even less than the 3% of the Bernie Bros believe Reade’s story. More people concerned about how Joe will clean up this orange mess than him hair sniffing.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,346
15,162
136

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
If you think it dismantles my assertion say how, specifically.
You cited the PBS article to which I countered that Kavanaugh equivalently had numerous women willing to defend him, and you dismissed it.

Those corroborative accounts being 100% things she told people. If we know things she tells people are frequently untrue, these accounts are not reliable.
Dr. Ford’s accusations were not ironclad, yet Democrats conveniently overlooked those aspects.

Sure we have. The investigation has not turned up any documents that support her assertion and interviewing people in the office at the same time she was showed that several of her other tangential assertions are also dubious.
How can documents turn up if they’re shielded from search? Also, the Kavanaugh accusations were largely grounded in the work of Ronin Farrow and Michael Avenatti. Farrow is currently under fire for his means and methods and Avenatti turned out to be a grifter hack...so forgive my dismissal of a Politico hit piece as an acceptable investigation or responsible journalism.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Again this in the court of public opinion. Reade won’t get anyone to go through his senate records. At this point, I’d say even less than the 3% of the Bernie Bros believe Reade’s story. More people concerned about how Joe will clean up this orange mess than him hair sniffing.
If the court of public opinion is all that matters, then justice is a function of who has the best social media PR team.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,839
49,548
136
You cited the PBS article to which I countered that Kavanaugh equivalently had numerous women willing to defend him, and you dismissed it.

Right, because a bunch of the people I’m the PBS article were actually in the office at the time Reade was there and could speak directly to statements she made. Not a single person in the letter about Kavanaugh could do the same.

Now I assume you understand why what you said was dismissed?

Dr. Ford’s accusations were not ironclad, yet Democrats conveniently overlooked those aspects.

Nonsense. Ford has not been shown to have a track record of theft and deception. Reade has.

How can documents turn up if their shielded from search?

They aren’t. Biden’s papers do not possess personnel records, as attested to by multiple authoritative sources. Reade claims to have her records though, but so far has released nothing. Why?

Also, the Kavanaugh accusations were largely grounded in the work of Ronin Farrow and Michael Avenatti. Farrow is currently under fire for his means and methods and Avenatti turned out to be a grifter...so forgive my dismissal of a Politico hit piece as an acceptable investigation or responsible jouralism.

Now you’re conflating multiple different issues. Kavanaugh was credibly accused by Ford and perjured himself in order to discount her accusation. This is the opposite of Reade, where further investigation has shown her to be a lifelong liar.

I know the investigation hasn’t turned out the way you wanted but dismissing inconvenient evidence isn’t going to cut it. She’s someone who apparently lies a lot and so when the only evidence that exists of an event is her world the fact that her word is worthless destroys her claim.

I would think you would be happy to learn Biden most likely didn’t assault this woman, why are you mad about it?
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,396
4,632
136
If the court of public opinion is all that matters, then justice is a function of who has the best social media PR team.
Sadly this true. You keep on insisting that Reade’s story be investigated. But you never said my who?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,839
49,548
136
Sadly this true. You keep on insisting that Reade’s story be investigated. But you never said my who?

What's strange is that her story has been investigated. That whole PBS piece is the result of an exhaustive investigation by an impartial third party. What they found was:

1) Not one of nearly 70 people interviewed corroborated her story about how the office operated or any of her stories of what transpired there.
2) Her descriptions of being made to serve drinks and such are unlikely to be true as no one else remembered that and if anything, said the office operated the exact opposite.
3) She did in fact dress inappropriately and unprofessionally for work in the opinion of her coworkers and so being chided for this was not retaliation.
4) She was bad at her job.
5) The area where she said the assault took place had no places to hide, meaning Biden would have been assaulting her in a heavily trafficked area and out in the open. While not impossible this is also unlikely.

This is exactly the sort of investigation Democrats wanted for Kavanaugh but Republicans blocked. The problem is that all the evidence the investigation turned up lands on the side of exonerating Biden and so Starbuck isn't interested.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Coming in late to this and it seems weird that people would judge Tara because she has lied in the past but believe Joe like he hasn't? They are both scummy to me for their past.
She lied about the incident, there was no private area in the hallway she claims it happened in during broad daylight on a workday.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Right, because a bunch of the people I’m the PBS article were actually in the office at the time Reade was there and could speak directly to statements she made. Not a single person in the letter about Kavanaugh could do the same.

Now I assume you understand why what you said was dismissed?
By that logic we should dismiss the Dr. Ford allegations because supposed attendees of the party refused to corroborate her version, to include the person she identified as physically present.

Nonsense. Ford has not been shown to have a track record of theft and deception. Reade has.
There were a lot of stories about the party culture and hookup culture between Kavanaugh’s and Ford’s schools. Imagine if Politico ran an article with a slut shaming headline.

They aren’t. Biden’s papers do not possess personnel records, as attested to by multiple authoritative sources. Reade claims to have her records though, but so far has released nothing. Why?
Says Biden. Those documents should be in the public domain regardless. Ive already conceded that Reade needs to produce the documents she claims to have.

I know the investigation hasn’t turned out the way you wanted but dismissing inconvenient evidence isn’t going to cut it. She’s someone who apparently lies a lot and so when the only evidence that exists of an event is her world the fact that her word is worthless destroys her claim. I would think you would be happy to learn Biden most likely didn’t assault this woman, why are you mad about it?
You’ve similarly dismissed my point that an investigation by the press or lawyers doesn’t exonerate Biden, given what we now know about Farrow and Avenatti.

I believe that sexual harassment occurred, not assault. What I am mad about is Democrats set a standard that completely ignores due process only to do a complete 180 when the shoe is on the other foot.

Earlier in the thread, I also criticized the GOP for making a hypocritical 180 as well. Funny, none of the conservative posters have taken issue with that opinion.

A better question is, why do you care what I think. I enjoy our exchanges because it is clear to me you enjoy debate, and approach the topics in good faith, but I don’t take offense when you don’t agree with me. Why can’t we respectfully disagree?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,839
49,548
136
By that logic we should dismiss the Dr. Ford allegations because supposed attendees of the party refused to corroborate her version, to include the person she identified as physically present.

False. The woman said she did not remember the party so she couldn’t say either way. This is in marked contrast to the people reported on in the PBS story who directly said Reade’s descriptions were wrong.

I don’t know why you keep desperately attempting to equate the two. It’s a sure fire loser.

There were a lot of stories about the party culture and hookup culture between Kavanaugh’s and Ford’s schools. Imagine if Politico ran an article with a slut shaming headline.

Sad attempt. We are discussing Reade’s actions specifically, not some nebulous culture.

Says Biden. Those documents should be in the public domain regardless. Ive already conceded that Reade needs to produce the documents she claims to have.

Says everyone with knowledge of what records are given over to universities. If you think the office records of every congressman running for office should be in the public domain then why didn’t you complain about Al Gore, John McCain, John Kerry, Barack Obama, and Mike Pence?

You’ve similarly dismissed my point that an investigation by the press or lawyers doesn’t exonerate Biden, given what we now know about Farrow and Avenatti.

‘There needs to be an investigation!’

‘Okay here’s an investigation.’

‘No, that doesn’t count.’

I believe that sexual harassment occurred, not assault. What I am mad about is Democrats set a standard that completely ignores due process only to do a complete 180 when the shoe is on the other foot.

Earlier in the thread, I also criticized the GOP for making a hypocritical 180 as well. Funny, none of the conservative posters have taken issue with that opinion.

A better question is, why do you care what I think. I enjoy our exchanges because it is clear to me you enjoy debate, and approach the topics in good faith, but I don’t take offense when you don’t agree with me. Why can’t we respectfully disagree?
We can! I do not think you are applying similar standards of evidence in this case though and as evidence has piled up that Reade is not a credible person you are discounting it.

I think if we knew what we know about Reade now when she made her allegation no one would take it seriously.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
The allegations against Biden are credible. The only acceptable response is an independent probe of documents related to his tenure as Senator. That those documents remain screened from the public domain is absurd to begin with. There is either documentation of her complaint or there isn’t. That is the only relevant fact to investigate. Not how many landlords a woman with financial troubles managed to piss off.

Once again I'm going to stay away from a debate about their credibility on the existing evidence but note I disagree with your personal assessment here.

Perhaps you could say how you would like to have seen things go from the beginning? I'm hoping to collaborate on a general understanding of what to do instead of what not to do or what to do from here.

When you say "independent probe of documents", who would have such authority?

Personally, I see a big part of the problem in these situations being that there is limited framework in the law to vet candidates for office, and for something like this candidates already in office. My first inclination is some sort of legislation which would provide some recourse for such complaints to be evaluated in order to have a name on the ballot. Unfortunately, I see major red flags here about this being possibly politically weaponized or else engaging in a fair process for example through civil suit taking years to resolve. Still, civil court would be the avenue I'd most be interested in at least providing the option for. I think it is flatly wrong that there be statute of limitations for acts of sexual violence criminally or civilly.

Separately, in a country with free speech, we really don't have the grounds to stop a media circus. Notably, the more personal details about Reade which are being brought up are published in non-major sources. Thankfully, major publications have stayed away and, instead, done their independent investigation, and published or not based on that assessment. Although, it appears to me that Fox News, notably, has acted much differently.

I also imagine a role for a victim's advocacy group in providing a service to evaluate and advocate for victims in telling their story when it meets their criteria for credibility. If we have some avenues which are strong and publicly visible (victim's advocacy group, civil actions), this will help the public and press immensely in weighing on these cases as lack of utilization of these routes would signal questions of integrity of complaint. This would be a boon despite the lack of teeth such groups would have in enforcing anything themselves.

Sanders, Gabbard, Bloomberg or Yang.

I also prefer governors to Senators in terms of the candidate pool for POTUS, so would easily vote for Baker or Newsom, especially given their leadership during the COVID situation.

Thanks for this. With the exception of Bloomberg (notably for more egregious sexual harassment history than Biden among others), this is a great list to me. I would like to note here that this conversation is indicative of the reason I continue to engage with you despite our often vastly different and irreconcilable perspectives. You have an uncommonly clear guiding principle worthy of much respect. What I would ask as a fellow sharer of this principle is that we both work harder to communicate what we value, who embodies these values, and paths in which people could act which more accurately represent those values. This I think would be far more productive than the more easily expressed critiques of what we judge to run contrary to those values. It also helps clarify a common interest where we are simply more likely to find differences in perspective than enemy.

That you see this as unrealistic is a function of the tribalism infused throughout this thread.

After having written that last paragraph I am changing my response to this. I will say that I agree that such tribalism is the wedge which keeps us from honoring our ideals. And for me, honoring does not mean achieving. But it also wouldn't be empty in results. How do we break the tribalism? My suggestion is in the paragraph above.

Thanks, if nothing else, for leading me closer to a truer look at what is important to me. I feel there is much there which we share, and not feeling so lonely is a blessing.
 
Reactions: Starbuck1975

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
But not to your own standards, obviously. It's the classic "accuse the other side of that which you are guilty." It's like Trump going on about crooked Hillary.
You have to put a dollar in the jar for mentioning she who shall not be named.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
She told a coworker at the time that she was leaving DC for "medical issues".
Then she wrote she left to move to Midwest with her boyfriend.
Then she wrote she left to pursue writing and acting.
Then she wrote she left because of her love for Russia.
Then she wrote she left because of America's xenophobia.
Then she said she left because Biden's staff pushed her out.
We all eagerly await the next version of her story. 7th time is the charm, I am sure.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
At first, I thought the concern was for Reade but after 100+ pages there seems to be more talk on "democrats bad".


She told a coworker at the time that she was leaving DC for "medical issues".
Then she wrote she left to move to Midwest with her boyfriend.
Then she wrote she left to pursue writing and acting.
Then she wrote she left because of her love for Russia.
Then she wrote she left because of America's xenophobia.
Then she said she left because Biden's staff pushed her out.
We all eagerly await the next version of her story. 7th time is the charm, I am sure.

I think those are song lyrics.
If not...those would make for bitchin song lyrics
 
Reactions: senseamp

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,659
126
At first, I thought the concern was for Reade but after 100+ pages there seems to be more talk on "democrats bad".




I think those are song lyrics.
If not...those would make for bitchin song lyrics

That's due to how they handled it.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Joe handled it very graciously, too graciously IMO. She lied through her teeth and claimed he sexually assaulted her at a non-existent private place in the senate hallway, but he didn't attack her or question her motives, just said it never happened and moved on. Not sure I would have had such composure if it happened to me.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,824
10,362
136
Joe handled it very graciously, too graciously IMO. She lied through her teeth and claimed he sexually assaulted her at a non-existent private place in the senate hallway, but he didn't attack her or question her motives, just said it never happened and moved on. Not sure I would have had such composure if it happened to me.

I think going on the offensive would have been a PR disaster for him.
 
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