The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[realibrad]

I'm so Zen I gotta wear my

Bitch please. I'm so Zin, I eat my Zin.

http://www.zinburgereast.com/

 

[JD50]

No, I'm laughing at you, have been for a while. I know, I shouldn't make fun of the mentally "challenged"... oh well.

Are you ever going to explain why he's wrong?

 

[shira]

I think what he was saying is that he achieved some sort of gotcha if you mistook him for a believer, which if true is probably something you would survive.

He was right (and your observation is right): I did mistake him for a true believer after reading the last few posts he made. But you are also right that I didn't feel particularly gotcha'ed.

 

[1prophet]

The problem is that the bad feelings are based on objective reality. They are going to die. Everybody they love is going to die. They are going to suffer greatly both emotionally and physically before they die. To top this off, there is no meaning to their life and no existence for them after their short lifespan. It is a big fucking cosmic joke. They ONLY way you can avoid the bad feeling is if you can delude yourself that objective reality is untrue. That is simply impossible for a great portion of humanity.

PS. My son is failing 3 classes this year already. How the heck can two parents with master's degrees sire such a fucking waste of humanity? I can barely tolerate the sight of the little shit anymore. Gangsta rap, complete and utter disregard for authority, pants around the knees, laziness beyond all reality, not a shred of intellectual curiosity.... well on his way to a life in prison or welfare. I am about to wash my hands of multi-culturalism.

God
"I created these humans, gave them a perfect place to live, all their needs met including immortality, and after all I gave them what do they do, first the woman listens to that no good serpent and eats the forbidden fruit and then her husband who should know better eats it too,

and today all their descendants are constantly up to no good , lying, cheating, stealing, raping, killing, constantly looking on how to get over on someone else's back not realizing except for a few of them that they are actually destroying themselves and the planet they live on,

How can such imperfection come from perfection?"

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Because that actually what you meant? Fuck no. Not that it actually matters to you. Right? :\

"Here, I'm going to pretend you said something that you really didn't, and then tell you you're stupid for saying it."

Great strategy there, Socrates.

No, I'm laughing at you, have been for a while. I know, I shouldn't make fun of the mentally "challenged"... oh well.

All bark, no bite.

 

[Moonbeam]

God
"I created these humans, gave them a perfect place to live, all their needs met including immortality, and after all I gave them what do they do, first the woman listens to that no good serpent and eats the forbidden fruit and then her husband who should know better eats it too,

and today all their descendants are constantly up to no good , lying, cheating, stealing, raping, killing, constantly looking on how to get over on someone else's back not realizing except for a few of them that they are actually destroying themselves and the planet they live on,

How can such imperfection come from perfection?"

The answer is very simple but it can't be explained in a way that you will experience perfection rather than the world you see of good and evil, because that requires tha appearance or onset of a different conscious state.

You already have all the keys in your hand. You have knowledge, you have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You feel Shane in your necked state and hide behind the fig leaf. This is an allegory of your condition.

I have a more modern explanation but it will suffer the same fate. It will only be words that in themselves can't transform your state. The transformation itself can be had only by a very large shift in perspective that occurs with a shift from thought to silence, or any technique that brings conscious awareness of the now into being.

We were morn perfect,fully here, fully connected to our feelings,totally at one with the world around us. We were born in a he Garden of Eden. And then we began to learn language. we began to learn, to eat or the tree of knowledge. We learned to see the world, not as an undivided unity that included our own being bot as a place full of divisions based on the fact that we can name things. With words we learned to think. The Forrest of oneness and beauty became trees. We learned to name our pain, to like what brings pleasure and fear what causes pain. We created a world of good and evil, ideas to which we attached feelings in such a way as to alloW531577526 us to call this person's actions good and that person's actions evil. We learned to compare ours lives mentally to others and compete for love based on being good and not bad people. We learned to control others, our children based on their need for love. We taught them to feel our hate of evil, our fear that they are evil. We taught them they must conform to incompr h nibble standards to be worthy of love. We taught them to fail and to feel they are failures.

Once you create a world of self hating individuals dying to be loved, in a state of self denial as to what happ Ned to them as children, once you create a world of people who are afraid to feel what they feel, you create a world full of sick people with emotional needs, people who have nothing wrong with you them in reality, but everything hing wrong with them according to their actual feelings, feelings they deny they feel.

The purpose of mechanical religion is to create a system of control, where clever people can pray on the emotional needs of others, but the major religions were started by folk who had rediscovered and reexperienced their original state of p election and unity. They built bridges for their time and mental conditions.

I believe that today we need something additional because we all live on a much more connected world and r legions differences create enmity.

So the question becomes, is there a conscious state that transcends duality and returns us to a unified conscious state of unity. Is there one truth that covers us all. Is there a God, or a God conscious state?

 

[bshole]

Once you create a world of self hating individuals dying to be loved, in a state of self denial as to what happ Ned to them as children, once you create a world of people who are afraid to feel what they feel, you create a world full of sick people with emotional needs, people who have nothing wrong with you them in reality, but everything hing wrong with them according to their actual feelings, feelings they deny they feel.

Who hates themselves? That makes no sense whatsoever. I WISH I hated myself. What a relief it would be. Death and destuction would hold no terror for me then.

The reason for all the fear and depression is because we LOVE ourselves too much. We can't bear the concept of the person we care most about in the world being obliterated in the blind machinery of an uncaring universe.

Not sure where you came up with this self-hating human world view but it is completely at odds with objective reality.

 

[BxgJ]

Who hates themselves? That makes no sense whatsoever. I WISH I hated myself. What a relief it would be. Death and destuction would hold no terror for me then.

The reason for all the fear and depression is because we LOVE ourselves too much. We can't bear the concept of the person we care most about in the world being obliterated in the blind machinery of an uncaring universe.

Not sure where you came up with this self-hating human world view but it is completely at odds with objective reality.

Self-hatred may not be the best term to use, but it certainly is an issue for some people.

As for the depression bit, I hope you aren't referring to all cases of depression. If so, you are way off base there.

 

[bshole]

Self-hatred may not be the best term to use, but it certainly is an issue for some people.

As for the depression bit, I hope you aren't referring to all cases of depression. If so, you are way off base there.

How or why would a person hate themself? I really don't undertand that concept. Can you explain it more?

For example, assume you are hideously ugly. You may hate the fact that you are ugly but you don't hate yourself. The hatred of your ugliness is proof of your self-love. If you truly hated yourself, you wouldn't give a fuck that you were ugly.

 

[BxgJ]

How or why would a person hate themself? I really don't undertand that concept. Can you explain it more?

For example, assume you are hideously ugly. You may hate the fact that you are ugly but you don't hate yourself. The hatred of your ugliness is proof of your self-love. If you truly hated yourself, you wouldn't give a fuck that you were ugly.

Well to discuss this we need to define what you mean by 'yourself'. Does that include body and mind? Or just your mind? How narrowly are we defining 'self'?

I can explain more, it just might help to know the above.

 

[bshole]

Well to discuss this we need to define what you mean by 'yourself'. Does that include body and mind? Or just your mind? How narrowly are we defining 'self'?

I can explain more, it just might help to know the above.

All of it, I don't get it in the least. Moon goes on and on and on and on and on about this concept of self-hate and I don't understand a word of it. It is a completely alien concept that makes not a lick of sense to me.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How or why would a person hate themself? I really don't undertand that concept. Can you explain it more?

I don't think I'd go so far as to say that many persons "hate" themselves, but I would agree that it is a common problem for people to be afraid of themselves, or to distrust the reality of their own being.

On the one hand, religions tell men that they are inescapably sinful, tainted, "deserving of hell," "there are none righteous," etc.

On the other hand, people believe that they are an accidental emergence from cold and heartless natural processes, just cogs in the great machine, purposeless and meaningless.

These people blind themselves to the integrity of their own being. They take for granted the blessed magic of their consciousness. They do not believe in the value of their own unique perspective, or that they do actually take part in creating their own realities.

You will not find satisfaction by trusting religion or science to give your life meaning. You begin by trusting yourself. You begin by accepting unconditionally the validity of your existence. Heroism and victimhood are not circumstances thrust upon you. They are states of mind, and it is within your power to choose one or the other, always.

 

[MajinCry]

-snip-
...and today all their descendants are constantly up to no good , lying, cheating, stealing, raping, killing, constantly looking on how to get over on someone else's back...
-snip-

Just like the Bible told 'em to. Yay.

 

[Moonbeam]

How or why would a person hate themself? I really don't undertand that concept. Can you explain it more?

For example, assume you are hideously ugly. You may hate the fact that you are ugly but you don't hate yourself. The hatred of your ugliness is proof of your self-love. If you truly hated yourself, you wouldn't give a fuck that you were ugly.

The answer is pretty simple I think. We were born perfect, nothing at all wrong with us, able to feel the full range of our human capacity to feel. I believe that our original natural human nature, our original state, is a state of ecstasy and joy in pure being. We lost that state as a conscious reality when we were taught duality, but it is still what is our true human nature, We are creatures of empathy with an infinite capacity to feel love but our self has made us feel separate and needy. We want to get back to the Garden but we don't know how and because unconsciously we feel we don't deserve it.

We were put down, make to feel inferior, compared to others who were held up as better, We became competitive and egotistical. We substituted the notion of an individual self of imaginary value for the self that was once in a state of unity. You are dealing with a paradox. You care for others because caring is your true human nature. You suffer because you believe yourself inadequate for the task. You were ejected from the Garden on the pain of death and you hate yourself for leaving. We all suffered a psychic death in order to survive our forced conditioning. Had we not broken and conformed we would have died. No child can endure endless mental torture. Our ego saved us, Our ego is our armor. But we are no longer children and are now imprisoned in that armor that we no longer need.

 

[Moonbeam]

Just like the Bible told 'em to. Yay.

But you know that if God is as good or better than our highest notions of good, he didn't put hate in the Bible. but rather that hate was put there by hateful men. You know that the God of the literalists can't exist and that is not all your words demonstrate. They show that you know who God can't be because you know who He must be. You are just an upside down believer. You hate the religious because they believe in a hateful God you yourself know has to be good to be God. You are angry that folk don't see the only God that there can be without the realization that you know who God isn't and can't possibly be because you know who He is. You know in your own being that God has to be love. And you know it because that's how you were born.

 

[MajinCry]

But you know that if God is as good or better than our highest notions of good, he didn't put hate in the Bible. but rather that hate was put there by hateful men. You know that the God of the literalists can't exist and that is not all your words demonstrate. They show that you know who God can't be because you know who He must be. You are just an upside down believer. You hate the religious because they believe in a hateful God you yourself know has to be good to be God. You are angry that folk don't see the only God that there can be without the realization that you know who God isn't and can't possibly be because you know who He is. You know in your own being that God has to be love. And you know it because that's how you were born.

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness. I create good and I create evil. I, The Lord, do all these things."

 

[Moonbeam]

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness. I create good and I create evil. I, The Lord, do all these things."

Good trick. There is no good or evil. We created them with language. Then we said, he or she is good or evil and we believed. Moonbeam.

You know that folk only hear an inner voice when they hear God speak. We hear the words we were taught to speak.

 

[zinfamous]

Most don't specifically cite atheism and why would they? You could say Jeffrey Dahmer, who said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” He killed dismembered, cannibalized, and indulged in necrophilia with 17 victims.

oh good call. Let's consider Dahmer an expert theologian and/or philosopher now. Long as it correlates with your assumption, right?

 

[Moonbeam]

oh good call. Let's consider Dahmer an expert theologian and/or philosopher now. Long as it correlates with your assumption, right?

Dahmer may have been a rare person who was not born human, who had no ability to feel empathy at all, and could have only seen people as inanimate things.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Most don't specifically cite atheism and why would they? You could say Jeffrey Dahmer, who said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” He killed dismembered, cannibalized, and indulged in necrophilia with 17 victims.

You think a murderous psychopath has some important insight regarding atheism v religion?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Most don't specifically cite atheism and why would they?

The wouldn't, because not believing in a god has about as much motivational power as not believing in Santa Claus.

How many of your actions are motivated by not believing in Santa Claus, numbnuts?

You could say Jeffrey Dahmer, who said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” He killed dismembered, cannibalized, and indulged in necrophilia with 17 victims.

You can take your false equivalency and shove it right up your ass.

 

[MajinCry]

If you look to Yahweh for morality, you're going to be one hellish person. Rape, slaughter, sex slavery, child rape...It's all commanded.

The fact that there are good people, who are religious, shows that people can be moral despite religion.

They will, however, be much better people once they throw away their belief that people deserve to be tortured for all eternity for not believing the same, that sex slaves should be taken, that rape should be committed, that children should be killed for being "unruly", etc.

Citing a psycopath to justify your belief in Yahweh tells all about the religious, and not a thing about the irreligious.

 

[Moonbeam]

If you look to Yahweh for morality, you're going to be one hellish person. Rape, slaughter, sex slavery, child rape...It's all commanded.

The fact that there are good people, who are religious, shows that people can be moral despite religion.

They will, however, be much better people once they throw away their belief that people deserve to be tortured for all eternity for not believing the same, that sex slaves should be taken, that rape should be committed, that children should be killed for being "unruly", etc.

Citing a psycopath to justify your belief in Yahweh tells all about the religious, and not a thing about the irreligious.

But it does tell a lot. It says something good about a person who cn't accept a murderous God. It tells us that person has an intuitive sense that such a God canT be real. The question is how did such an intuition come to exist. This is the question I would have asked railibrad had he the sense to recognize his contempt for the notion of a murderous God.

 

[MagickMan]

Self-hatred may not be the best term to use, but it certainly is an issue for some people.

As for the depression bit, I hope you aren't referring to all cases of depression. If so, you are way off base there.

All of Moonie's talk of self-hatred is merely projection, that's all it's ever been.

 

[MagickMan]

The wouldn't, because not believing in a god has about as much motivational power as not believing in Santa Claus.

How many of your actions are motivated by not believing in Santa Claus, numbnuts?

You can take your false equivalency and shove it right up your ass.

*snicker* You went back a month, for that? Aww, were you fishing for something to be pissy about? Poor kid.