The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[realibrad]

We agree!!! Agnostics believe it is not possible to know/prove the existence of God therefore cannot state with absolute certainty the existence or non existence of God. This does not mean agnostics can never become theists or atheists or anything in between. It just means they do not know and cannot prove the unknowable.

Good, you know the meaning of agnostic.

Now, you realize that atheism has nothing to do with people believing they have proof god does not exist right?

An atheist would argue that the lack of evidence would mean that they lack belief. Atheist do not have anti-evidence as to the existence of god. Atheists simply do not have a belief in something without evidence. If you could provide evidence for a god, and it held up to scientific scrutiny I know I would change my mind.

No doubt there are people who claim to be atheist to be counter culture. Most atheists that I know are atheists because they do not see any valid evidence to warrant belief. Another way would be to say that atheist are rationalists.

 

[Moonbeam]

In what way are yo using observe? to follow to perceive?

In the sense of "look".

 

[OverVolt]

Gnostic or Gnocchi?

 

[runzwithsizorz]

The problem here seems to be that you think it is possible to prove something doesn't exist. It isn't possible to prove something does not exist.

You are right, of course. However, if one has no proof, I would assume the logical conclusion would be there is always the possibility God (or anything else) might exist.

 

[realibrad]

In the sense of "look".

Okay, I understand now.

My response would be that God did a real dick move by creating me with horribly limited perception to know who or what he is. He is also a dick for creating a world where he knew we would end up with massive amounts of suffering because of the flaws he built us with.

If it takes belief without evidence to be able to see him and he knew when he created me that I would not be able to see him because I am logical and rational, then he simply created me to eventually end up in hell.

 

[MongGrel]

Labels are not good or bad. Some people like to dismiss arguments from people who they label, but that does not make labels good/bad. if you dont consider a subject then you are an atheist. An agnostic would be someone that has been told about a God, and says there is no way to know if that god is or is not real. The fact that someone might not consider the subject means they lack belief as they have not thought on it. At that point they are an atheist on that subject. They could change their mind and they would cease being an atheist.

You seem to be the same track as Neil Degrasse Tyson in that God is not worth a consideration either way. The problem with that of course is that even if you don't want to engage, you likely will be anyway. Tyson does not want to label himself an atheist because he does not want his opinions dismissed be it religious opinions or otherwise. But, people are people and just because you dont want to have your arguments dismissed does not mean they care.

That is part of the point to begin with.

You are labeling me right there.

:biggrin:

And yes, they do have a huge impact on social interaction in general.

 

[MagickMan]

You are right, of course. However, if one has no proof, I would assume the logical conclusion would be there is always the possibility God (or anything else) might exist.

Then there's the overwhelming probability that if some type of all-powerful deity does exist, it doesn't give 2 shits about what amounts to bacteria (us), living on this tiny planet, that's part of some small, backwater galaxy.

 

[realibrad]

That is part of the point to begin with.

You are labeling me right there.

:biggrin:

I am not. You fit into categories even if people do not say it to you. Because you exist, you fit into a category. I think what you are doing is advocating against dismissing someone for the categories they may or may not fit into. But, lets not pretend that people do not fit into categories. If you want to make things more productive, promote rational debate. Pretending that labels don't apply to people seems dumb for adults.

 

[MongGrel]

Everyone fits into categories of course. Or gets put in one.

Existing is just pretty much an interaction with the environment in general. In any form and how it affects things in it and how you manipulate it, more or less.

Perceived things are one of those pet peeves of mine lately that are BS, when used for general low level BS these days.

It has become way too common these days, "I perceive this or that" as an excuse for factual evidence.

Is basically a fallacy saying "I'll do whatever I want, regardless of facts".

 

[OverVolt]

Is basically a fallacy saying "I'll do whatever I want, regardless of facts".

Well they aren't wrong. They are going to do whatever they want, lol.

 

[MongGrel]

Well they aren't wrong. They are going to do whatever they want, lol.

Of course they are the vast majority of the time , but it just makes a convenient false reason to do so.

I guess being able to skew facts etc makes you never wrong though, whatever the circumstances are.

 

[JEDIYoda]

If it takes belief without evidence to be able to see him and he knew when he created me that I would not be able to see him because I am logical and rational, then he simply created me to eventually end up in hell.

your choice.......

 

[realibrad]

your choice.......

It only seems like choice for me, but God knows every choice I will make. Had he given me a differ personality I would be like everyone else that believes and not worry. Its not like I am a horrible person and choose not to believe. I dont believe because there is not evidence and its irrational. I dont understand why god would create all this shit, and hide himself. Its the most evil game of hide and seek ever where the losers go to be tortured forever. I wont get to see my family that goes to heaven. I dont get a 2nd chance to make up for not being able to find him.

If that is what god did, he is a dick.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

We agree!!! Agnostics believe it is not possible to know/prove the existence of God therefore cannot state with absolute certainty the existence or non existence of God. This does not mean agnostics can never become theists or atheists or anything in between.

1.) There's nothing "in between" theism and atheism. It's a dichotomy. You either believe a god exists or you do not.

2.) The point is that agnosticism is not mutually exclusive to theism or atheism. Most atheists, generally speaking, are agnostic atheists.

 

[Moonbeam]

Okay, I understand now.

My response would be that God did a real dick move by creating me with horribly limited perception to know who or what he is. He is also a dick for creating a world where he knew we would end up with massive amounts of suffering because of the flaws he built us with.

If it takes belief without evidence to be able to see him and he knew when he created me that I would not be able to see him because I am logical and rational, then he simply created me to eventually end up in hell.

It only seems like choice for me, but God knows every choice I will make. Had he given me a differ personality I would be like everyone else that believes and not worry. Its not like I am a horrible person and choose not to believe. I dont believe because there is not evidence and its irrational. I dont understand why god would create all this shit, and hide himself. Its the most evil game of hide and seek ever where the losers go to be tortured forever. I wont get to see my family that goes to heaven. I dont get a 2nd chance to make up for not being able to find him.

If that is what god did, he is a dick.

I completely agree I could not believe in that God either. I simply died to all hope rather than buy into such injustice. I chose to be honest with myself rather than believe such a lie. I had to abandon all hope that the universe is good and has meaning. The result for me was the certainty that I would experience black endless suffering.

As to the point I wished to make regarding how things may depend on how you look at something, you are a rational person who believes in science and science says an electron is a particle or a wave depending on which point of view you take. Now I believe that is true, but I also find it to be quite crazy, not where I would expected reason to lead me at all. Quantum mechanics seems to me to be completely other than what my poor brain was designed to handle. I accept such science as a matter of faith, faith in math I can't myself do.

There is a Zen story about a man chased of a cliff by a tiger. Clinging to roots he sees another tiger. As he hangs there weakening he spied a strawberry growing next to him on the cliff. He plucked it and it tasted so good.

This story changed my life and turned me inside out.

 

[maluckey]

Answer one of my two questions from my post.

Why do you believe there is an afterlife? Why do you believe there is a God?

Both valid questions, if I had an answer it would be nice. It fits how I feel, much like the reason why I donate time to charity, or ride my Mountain bike, drink a beer, go to the museum or sit and watch the sunset with my wife. I can't define why, any more than I could define any other abstract emotion.

That's the nature of emotions. They exist, and nobody can say they don't. They can be demonstrated via physical expression of that emotion, but neither the actual reason or source, nor the actually thoughts behind the physical manifestation of that emotion can be definitively shown. We aren't "in" that persons head.

We, as reasonable people may try to deduce the reasoning behind someone's actions, by attempting to use our own recollections of our own situational actions, coupled with collective memories of recalled statements from others (books, teachings movies, drama etc), to try and deduce why, but ultimately it will fail, because the reality is that that person could have just lied about everything, or nothing as far as what they were thinking.

I can smile and say "Have a great day!" to a stranger and what I really mean is "You lousy sonofabitch! I slashed your tires because you parked in my spot, and THAT makes my morning just that much better!" That person would be unaware of the source of my happiness, and to them I am a good samaritan, genuinely wanting them to have a great day.

That's why in law, a trial by jury is more fair, because one persons being, is not the same as another's. It would truly be easy if we all shared identical thought patterns, identical levels of understanding and reactions to actions around us. No need for laws, since all would be the same.

Since we are NOT the same, that is illogical. Almost illogical as asking how MUCH love do you have for your child....what? Three pounds? 200 dollars worth? These statements sound absurd because they are are. Why did you want a child in the first place? I know! the first thought was that you wanted to continue the genetic line for the betterment of the species (Someone actually told me that once)......then immediately thought about ball games with your little boy, or Tea parties and little Easter dresses for the girl. The reasoning behind having a child might have some vague basis in logic (or not), but once the child is born and pulls on your beard the first time, the logic begins to fade, and they become more than your genetic lineage. Some may say you will continue to have these illogical feeling so that you will want to nourish the child until they are old enough to continue the genetic lineage. OK, now they are older, can't reproduce, and both of you have back injuries from the same car crash and can't work. What then? Your/their value becomes nothing? Why are you both still here, and not put back into the food chain?

All great questions without answers.

Back to your question, because it is a GREAT One! Why do I believe in a higher power? Because it feels right to me, and the unanswered questions I raised (and thousands of other questions) are easier for me to accept and deal with, while I have faith in a higher being. My faith drives me to be more than I am. It provides hope that I may please someone other than myself, and that this life, as hard as it gets sometimes, is nothing more than a test, that I alone may pass or fail by my own merits.

M

 

[realibrad]

Both valid questions, if I had an answer it would be nice. It fits how I feel, much like the reason why I donate time to charity, or ride my Mountain bike, drink a beer, go to the museum or sit and watch the sunset with my wife. I can't define why, any more than I could define any other abstract emotion.

That's the nature of emotions. They exist, and nobody can say they don't. They can be demonstrated via physical expression of that emotion, but neither the actual reason or source, nor the actually thoughts behind the physical manifestation of that emotion can be definitively shown. We aren't "in" that persons head.

We, as reasonable people may try to deduce the reasoning behind someone's actions, by attempting to use our own recollections of our own situational actions, coupled with collective memories of recalled statements from others (books, teachings movies, drama etc), to try and deduce why, but ultimately it will fail, because the reality is that that person could have just lied about everything, or nothing as far as what they were thinking.

I can smile and say "Have a great day!" to a stranger and what I really mean is "You lousy sonofabitch! I slashed your tires because you parked in my spot, and THAT makes my morning just that much better!" That person would be unaware of the source of my happiness, and to them I am a good samaritan, genuinely wanting them to have a great day.

That's why in law, a trial by jury is more fair, because one persons being, is not the same as another's. It would truly be easy if we all shared identical thought patterns, identical levels of understanding and reactions to actions around us. No need for laws, since all would be the same.

Since we are NOT the same, that is illogical. Almost illogical as asking how MUCH love do you have for your child....what? Three pounds? 200 dollars worth? These statements sound absurd because they are are. Why did you want a child in the first place? I know! the first thought was that you wanted to continue the genetic line for the betterment of the species (Someone actually told me that once)......then immediately thought about ball games with your little boy, or Tea parties and little Easter dresses for the girl. The reasoning behind having a child might have some vague basis in logic (or not), but once the child is born and pulls on your beard the first time, the logic begins to fade, and they become more than your genetic lineage. Some may say you will continue to have these illogical feeling so that you will want to nourish the child until they are old enough to continue the genetic lineage. OK, now they are older, can't reproduce, and both of you have back injuries from the same car crash and can't work. What then? Your/their value becomes nothing? Why are you both still here, and not put back into the food chain?

All great questions without answers.

Back to your question, because it is a GREAT One! Why do I believe in a higher power? Because it feels right to me, and the unanswered questions I raised (and thousands of other questions) are easier for me to accept and deal with, while I have faith in a higher being. My faith drives me to be more than I am. It provides hope that I may please someone other than myself, and that this life, as hard as it gets sometimes, is nothing more than a test, that I alone may pass or fail by my own merits.

M

While science may never be able to prove/disprove god, it can say something about your feelings and the implications of those feelings.

So for me, I don't feel there is a god. You feel there is a god. Our feelings are mutually exclusive. Feelings do not establish what is or is not. If I felt that the earth was a cube, it would not make earth a cube. Likewise, if you felt the earth was a sphere, it would not make the earth that shape. So, unless you are like moonie, you agree that your feelings to not shape reality, just your perception.

I don't have a better way of saying this off the top of my head, but, science says that unless you have evidence that can be tested that any conclusions drawn are worthless. It could be right, it could be wrong.

As an atheist, I look at the world and all the different beliefs. Many of those beliefs do not come from anything other than people saying things. We have no way of testing their claims. Further, many of the claims are mutually exclusive which means that some have to be wrong. If you look at the followers, some believe 100% that their religion is true and their beliefs are the correct ones. Because some have to be wrong, how can I know which are right if they all do the same thing? So, as a rational person I say I lack belief until such a time when evidence is provided.

 

[maluckey]

While science may never be able to prove/disprove god, it can say something about your feelings and the implications of those feelings.

So for me, I don't feel there is a god. You feel there is a god. Our feelings are mutually exclusive. Feelings do not establish what is or is not. If I felt that the earth was a cube, it would not make earth a cube. Likewise, if you felt the earth was a sphere, it would not make the earth that shape. So, unless you are like moonie, you agree that your feelings to not shape reality, just your perception.

I don't have a better way of saying this off the top of my head, but, science says that unless you have evidence that can be tested that any conclusions drawn are worthless. It could be right, it could be wrong.

As an atheist, I look at the world and all the different beliefs. Many of those beliefs do not come from anything other than people saying things. We have no way of testing their claims. Further, many of the claims are mutually exclusive which means that some have to be wrong. If you look at the followers, some believe 100% that their religion is true and their beliefs are the correct ones. Because some have to be wrong, how can I know which are right if they all do the same thing? So, as a rational person I say I lack belief until such a time when evidence is provided.

You are very correct that perception doesn't change physical reality. It does change the reality of the being perceiving it. A sunset to a blind man is just another event. A fine wine to someone without sense of taste or smell is just alcohol and antioxidants. Pain felt, is only truly quantifiable by the person experiencing it.

Now....you are almost correct about scientific theory. Scientific theory states that if a hypothesis cannot be tested, the state cannot be known. Science therefore, cannot address that hypothesis.

M

 

[Moonbeam]

realibrad: While science may never be able to prove/disprove god, it can say something about your feelings and the implications of those feelings.

M: I agree with this, but it's not just science that can say something about our feelings and their implications. I can too. I can predict, for example, that a person who is optimistic will have a better success rate at what they attempt than a person who is a defeatist. He or she may also have a better state of mental health. So when you say: "r: So for me, I don't feel there is a god. You feel there is a god. Our feelings are mutually exclusive. Feelings do not establish what is or is not. If I felt that the earth was a cube, it would not make earth a cube. Likewise, if you felt the earth was a sphere, it would not make the earth that shape. So, unless you are like moonie, you agree that your feelings to not shape reality, just your perception.", I would have to disagree that feelings shape objective reality, They shape ones personal reality which people unconsciously assume IS reality but isn't.

r: I don't have a better way of saying this off the top of my head, but, science says that unless you have evidence that can be tested that any conclusions drawn are worthless. It could be right, it could be wrong.

M: Worthless would be a value judgment. Science is neutral here because science would draw no conclusions at all. No test, no science.

r: As an atheist, I look at the world and all the different beliefs. Many of those beliefs do not come from anything other than people saying things. We have no way of testing their claims. Further, many of the claims are mutually exclusive which means that some have to be wrong. If you look at the followers, some believe 100% that their religion is true and their beliefs are the correct ones. Because some have to be wrong, how can I know which are right if they all do the same thing? So, as a rational person I say I lack belief until such a time when evidence is provided.

M: You know perfectly well that no evidence will ever be provided for those claims that aren't testable. The only thing that might change is the appearance of new data that can be tested.

So how is your strawberry farming going? You have already told me you believe in God although you probably don't know it yet.

 

[soulcougher73]

You are right, of course. However, if one has no proof, I would assume the logical conclusion would be there is always the possibility God (or anything else) might exist.

The problem with line of thinking is your now open to believing in any and every single thing soneone says with no evidence for their claims. Seems kind of silly to do that doesn't it?

 

[MongGrel]

There is a Zen story about a man chased of a cliff by a tiger. Clinging to roots he sees another tiger. As he hangs there weakening he spied a strawberry growing next to him on the cliff. He plucked it and it tasted so good.

This story changed my life and turned me inside out.

"We'll see"

 

[realibrad]

You are very correct that perception doesn't change physical reality. It does change the reality of the being perceiving it. A sunset to a blind man is just another event. A fine wine to someone without sense of taste or smell is just alcohol and antioxidants. Pain felt, is only truly quantifiable by the person experiencing it.

Now....you are almost correct about scientific theory. Scientific theory states that if a hypothesis cannot be tested, the state cannot be known. Science therefore, cannot address that hypothesis.

M

I a fine wine would still taste like shit to me, because I don't like wine.

In Haiti, some people believe that spirits can take over your body. People feel these spirits do this. They also believe that the spirits can speak through people and give advice or cures. In the Haiti Vodou, you can never reach god directly, which is mutually exclusive to Christianity where you can pray. In the Vodou of Haiti, you can only talk to god through lesser spirits.

These people feel that Vodou is correct and you feel you are correct. How can both people feel they are right without one being wrong?

 

[MongGrel]

I a fine wine would still taste like shit to me, because I don't like wine.

In Haiti, some people believe that spirits can take over your body. People feel these spirits do this. They also believe that the spirits can speak through people and give advice or cures. In the Haiti Vodou, you can never reach god directly, which is mutually exclusive to Christianity where you can pray. In the Vodou of Haiti, you can only talk to god through lesser spirits.

These people feel that Vodou is correct and you feel you are correct. How can both people feel they are right without one being wrong?

I worked at a place about 5 years ago where the owners wife who did the books was a older white Scandinavian women who was a Tea Bagger Christian and believed in Haitian Vodou and Tarot cards.

Was a bit of an odd experience.

Somehow she found that all compatible to each other in her mind.

 

[soulcougher73]

I worked at a place about 5 years ago where the owners wife who did the books was a older white Scandinavian women who was a Tea Bagger Christian and believed in Haitian Vodou and Tarot cards.

Was a bit of an odd experience.

Somehow she found that all compatible to each other in her mind.

I have a good friend at work who believes your life is predetermined by God and in free will. He still hasn't been able to explain that one to me. People are strange lol

 

[realibrad]

I worked at a place about 5 years ago where the owners wife who did the books was a older white Scandinavian women who was a Tea Bagger Christian and believed in Haitian Vodou and Tarot cards.

Was a bit of an odd experience.

Somehow she found that all compatible to each other in her mind.

Exactly. She used her feelings to perceive reality. So, how do I know what feelings to use to perceive God? You use your feelings to believe in something that cannot be verified. She uses her feelings to believe in something that cannot be verified.

How do I know what feelings to use, and in what direction to use them in?