The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[Moonbeam]

You may be right about that. But the 2 sides come to the same morals by different methods. One side just "gets it" and the other side believes some God tells them they need to be this way to get to heaven etc. and that they are some how in sole possession of the morals. Id rather someone know that is not okayto kill instinctively vs. someone who only fears not getting into heaven if they kill.

Those who get it, who can say who they are. There can be those who get it from either direction. But I would say those who get it get it because they are driven to get it by suffering, those who suffer and overcome the obstacles that the literalism their religions cause, and those that suffer from having thrown the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Moonbeam]

God is inside Moonbeam therefore Moonbeam is God

You are concerned about your ego and see what I say as a threat, the possibility that you could be somebody else, somebody better. I know with great precision and certainty that I am a nobody and worthless. For that reason you waste your time trying to insult me.

I do, however, believe that a long time ago I saw something that is real, a flash of intuition that revolutionized my perspective. For me it was only an instant. I was not well prepared. But because I actually experienced that moment and it ended the sense of hopeless misery I experienced moments and years before, I conclude that something happened that was emotionally good for me. I am very sorry if my confidence in that fact offends you.

But as long as you want to criticize me, stop and think what a Moonbeam really is. Moonbeam is a name for an Airy Fairy New Agey person, a weirdo who is far out, which is what I know most will see, hence also the clown avatar, but it is also a reflection that happens at night that brings light from a hidden sun. The light of the moon does not come from the moon itself. No moon that knows its essence would make such a claim. Perhaps for somebody trying to find his way in the dark, a few dim rays will be enough. I reflect as best I can and do not care.

You know that bigotry against gays is wrong. Does that make you a God? Try not to be stupid.

 

[shira]

I will give you a getter answer, better. of course, in my opinion. See if it makes a bit of difference to how you are seeing this.

A man falls out of a pickup truck and hits his head. Shortly thereafter he goes into a piano store and is playing at a concert level almost immediately, and playing excellent music he composes on the spot. He says he sees squares move across his field of vision and they tell his fingers what to do. If this had happened in a church he was a member of and they had prayed for an organist, how could we explain what is already nearly impossible to explain.

The important point is that I have no idea what kind of powers to say Tibetans or Sufis might achieve, who do this sort of thing for a living. I have heard there were enlightened samurai that could not be brought down by anything but exhaustion. I am a nobody but I don't assume to know what others may be capable of who can slow time to the point where they cause everything that is.

Perhaps you have had a hungry dog and a sandwich in your hand that the dog will take if you don't pay attention. If you lose attention for a second that sandwich will be gone. The attention of the dog will not break. He and the sandwich are one.

To be present without fear is a powerful thing.

Also you should consider the effect on others that the God Conscious can have on other people. They are aware of what others are asleep to and their interactions are for all intents and purposes from another dimension.

But the thing I like about my God, His power, as it were, is that I know that love is real. That had died when I lost faith. As long as I believed
that the God you don't believe is was necessary for love to exist, I was looking in the wrong place.

What you or anyone else has heard, and what is actually true, are often NOT the same thing. Just ponder on the different perceptions of reality evident in a single thread in this forum.

Don't you find it very interesting that it's NEVER the case the "savants" from stories of the type you read about end up being prominent in the field of their "gift?" I mean, where are the people who became world-class mathematicians after they bumped their head? Do they have tenure at universities? Where are the world-class musicians of the same ilk? Where is the golfer who couldn't break 20 over par, who suddenly is routinely winning the Masters or the PGA Championship? Where is the Sufi middle-distance runner that breaks 3 minutes in the mile?

It seems to me that every single person of renown in fields like these has a history of increasing achievement that's the product of hard work over many years combined with a natural gift.

It's very convenient to say that you have "no idea what kind of powers to say Tibetans or Sufis might achieve, who do this sort of thing for a living." Well, where is the practical display of these "powers?" If you're attributing sudden "extraordinary" gifts from God, based on stories "you've heard", then where are these extraordinary people?

Yes, there are savants who exhibit some very limited special abilities, but they're never abilities that have practical uses in the real world. I mean, a savant who can look at a big pile of toothpicks and accurately say "336" is impressive, but other than using such an ability to earn a living as a sideshow freak, what's the point?

Finally, what does any of the above have to do with God? YOU are making an extraordinary cause-and-effect connection between a "sudden gift" and "God intervening." Couldn't I equally make a cause-and-effect connection between sudden catastrophes and "God intervening" and conclude that God is actually Satan? Or alternatively, conclude that no God could exist that would allow such catastrophes? Or conclude that something completely random and natural is at play?

I can certainly understand, given your difficult life history, how perceiving a God-infused universe has transformed an unbearable existence into a joyful life. My only response to that is, I'm glad you've found happiness at last.

 

[Moonbeam]

shira: ]What you or anyone else has heard, and what is actually true, are often NOT the same thing. Just ponder on the different perceptions of reality evident in a single thread in this forum.

M: I am fully aware of this. It is why I present it as 'I have heard' to distinguish that from a declaration of what is.

s; Don't you find it very interesting that it's NEVER the case the "savants" from stories of the type you read about end up being prominent in the field of their "gift?" I mean, where are the people who became world-class mathematicians after they bumped their head? Do they have tenure at universities? Where are the world-class musicians of the same ilk? Where is the golfer who couldn't break 20 over par, who suddenly is routinely winning the Masters or the PGA Championship? Where is the Sufi middle-distance runner that breaks 3 minutes in the mile?

It seems to me that every single person of renown in fields like these has a history of increasing achievement that's the product of hard work over many years combined with a natural gift.


M: My only use for that analogy was to point to the fact that there are many abilities that seem to lie dormant in the brains of what we call normal people that occasionally find sudden expression. Your rational approach to the world appears always to shut doors that my experiences opened. I can't give you the experience itself so I have to suggest alternative ways to see things. Things like world class, winning and breaking records mean nothing to me. And unless you relish the idea of crucifixion, if you had any real god powers of the kind that would impress you, you would also have the sense to keep them hidden.,

s: It's very convenient to say that you have "no idea what kind of powers to say Tibetans or Sufis might achieve, who do this sort of thing for a living." Well, where is the practical display of these "powers?" If you're attributing sudden "extraordinary" gifts from God, based on stories "you've heard", then where are these extraordinary people?

M; The organs of perception to see them are developed by sincerity and need.

s: Yes, there are savants who exhibit some very limited special abilities, but they're never abilities that have practical uses in the real world. I mean, a savant who can look at a big pile of toothpicks and accurately say "336" is impressive, but other than using such an ability to earn a living as a sideshow freak, what's the point?

M: Already answered above.

s: Finally, what does any of the above have to do with God? YOU are making an extraordinary cause-and-effect connection between a "sudden gift" and "God intervening." Couldn't I equally make a cause-and-effect connection between sudden catastrophes and "God intervening" and conclude that God is actually Satan? Or alternatively, conclude that no God could exist that would allow such catastrophes? Or conclude that something completely random and natural is at play?

M: Also answered above. I am making no such connection. I am saying that sudden gifts appear, why not sudden insights. I am not trying to prove anything. I am trying to suggest ways to crawl our of your box.

s: I can certainly understand, given your difficult life history, how perceiving a God-infused universe has transformed an unbearable existence into a joyful life. My only response to that is, I'm glad you've found happiness at last.

M; By my estimation of the difficulty people have in life, my life was by comparison profoundly easy. I did not find happiness. I gave up on the possibility I would ever be happy and it found me. But one can never be truly happy so long as other suffer. I'm not worth much but I try a bit here and there.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'm not worth much but I try a bit here and there.

That is the truth concerning all of us!!

 

[TheSlamma]

Cool story bro. Now go find a few examples of happy go-lucky atheists and the atrocities they commit, you should find plenty of examples from the USSR or North Korea. But that's OK because they're not being hypocritical and following the moral code of some deity, right?

Right off the bat, another guy who has zero understanding of how The Cult of Personality works.

 

[maluckey]

I don't know about you, but if I am going to take a trip which is a sacrifice to a destination, I would want to know that destination is actually there. If you admit there is not evidence for the destination, then why take the trip and sacrifice?

Yet you do, and you did.

I think you're starting to understand the other point of view, whether you agree or not. You risked giving your love to someone that you could NOT guarantee would return it. You did this without any understanding of what it would cost her, or any true understanding of her faith. THAT sir is the very point of this whole discussion.

As far as what she gives up. That's not my place, it's hers to share if she so wishes, since I cannot possibly know her relationship with you or her relationship with Jesus.

Generally speaking, if you deliberately fall outside of the teachings of Jesus, you give up everything....absolutely everything.

M

 

[realibrad]

Yet you do, and you did.

I think you're starting to understand the other point of view, whether you agree or not. You risked giving your love to someone that you could NOT guarantee would return it. You did this without any understanding of what it would cost her, or any true understanding of her faith. THAT sir is the very point of this whole discussion.

As far as what she gives up. That's not my place, it's hers to share if she so wishes, since I cannot possibly know her relationship with you or her relationship with Jesus.

Generally speaking, if you deliberately fall outside of the teachings of Jesus, you give up everything....absolutely everything.

M

I am not saying I need to know 100% that the destination is real. When I moved to be with my GF, I did it after talking to her for a year every day. I don't mean every day as almost every day. I literally mean we talked on the phone every single day for an entire year. I took 2 trips to FL each for a week before I moved. I did not move on a whim. The evidence I used was our conversations and the trips I took. Those lead me to think that it was worth the risk of moving to be with her.

Your analogy on the other hand is one where I don't have any evidence and start on a trip to look for a destination.

Also, you still have not explained what my GF is giving up by being with me. Are you saying that being with an atheist will somehow put her at risk? I fall outside of the teachings, but she does not, so why would she be at risk?

 

[soulcougher73]

Yet you do, and you did.

I think you're starting to understand the other point of view, whether you agree or not. You risked giving your love to someone that you could NOT guarantee would return it. You did this without any understanding of what it would cost her, or any true understanding of her faith. THAT sir is the very point of this whole discussion.

As far as what she gives up. That's not my place, it's hers to share if she so wishes, since I cannot possibly know her relationship with you or her relationship with Jesus.

Generally speaking, if you deliberately fall outside of the teachings of Jesus, you give up everything....absolutely everything.

M

How is moving for a physical tangible person anywhere close to resembling a trip/destination of believing in a god? One you can touch, feel, talk to etc. The other..well..theirs this old book that says some crazy stuff.

Your analogy is that he somehow believed this women was in FL and he should go find her without ever knowing she existed. Only a loon would do that.

 

[realibrad]

How is moving for a physical tangible person anywhere close to resembling a trip/destination of believing in a god? One you can touch, feel, talk to etc. The other..well..theirs this old book that says some crazy stuff.

Your analogy is that he somehow believed this women was in FL and he should go find her without ever knowing she existed. Only a loon would do that.

Just googled, loon's do indeed migrate to Florida

http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/birds/waterbirds/common-loon/

 

[maluckey]

Your analogy on the other hand is one where I don't have any evidence and start on a trip to look for a destination.

Also, you still have not explained what my GF is giving up by being with me. Are you saying that being with an atheist will somehow put her at risk? I fall outside of the teachings, but she does not, so why would she be at risk?

I'm not a religious educator or a clergy member so I'm rather inelegant at describing things. Bear with me

Catholic belief is that receiving communion is saving grace, and a gift to mankind. Your girlfriend cannot receive the full benefits of communion while in a committed relationship to you (in your current religious state). The teachings say that to receive communion while not in a state of grace is offensive to God. That being said, like all parents, there is understanding from God that all of his children make mistakes.

Also, intimate relationships outside of marriage are not in accordance with Jesus teachings. Marriage is reserved for members of the church (which you are not), ergo... she cannot be intimate with you without straying from the teachings. Again, God is understanding, but it is still offensive.

Being Christian means following all the teachings of Jesus. Actively picking and choosing which ones to follow is the same as rejecting the teachings. Rejecting the teachings means that when you die...you're dead, and while you live, you receive no grace.

M

 

[soulcougher73]

Just googled, loon's do indeed migrate to Florida

http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/birds/waterbirds/common-loon/

Ah man. Sorry to hear that. Well at least now you know

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'm not a religious educator or a clergy member so I'm rather inelegant at describing things. Bear with me

Catholic belief is that receiving communion is saving grace, and a gift to mankind. Your girlfriend cannot receive the full benefits of communion while in a committed relationship to you (in your current religious state). The teachings say that to receive communion while not in a state of grace is offensive to God. That being said, like all parents, there is understanding from God that all of his children make mistakes.

Also, intimate relationships outside of marriage are not in accordance with Jesus teachings. Marriage is reserved for members of the church (which you are not), ergo... she cannot be intimate with you without straying from the teachings. Again, God is understanding, but it is still offensive.

Being Christian means following all the teachings of Jesus. Actively picking and choosing which ones to follow is the same as rejecting the teachings. Rejecting the teachings means that when you die...you're dead, and while you live, you receive no grace.

M

This is your chosen paradigm...which is fine by me. But consider this, perhaps there is more to the picture than you realize.

 

[realibrad]

This is your chosen paradigm...which is fine by me. But consider this, perhaps there is more to the picture than you realize.

I am genuinely interested in people's opinion and you as a theist having a different one then him interests me.

What do you think of my situation in terms of my GF's risk?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I am genuinely interested in people's opinion and you as a theist having a different one then him interests me.

What do you think of my situation in terms of my GF's risk?

I don't know the answer for you specifically...but in my case it took me to the brink of death where I had nothing left to lose...hopefully it will go easier for you. Surrender is not a choice arrived at by rational, considered evaluation of risk, it's about the very essence of your being not caring about the "risk" anymore, it's about coming to a point in one's life where there is nowhere else to turn except towards this inexplicable God who reaches out towards you every day of your life...the risk no longer matters...the cost no longer matters. Surrender is probably the hardest thing a human being can do. All I can advise is to seek truth at all costs and pick the paradigm that suits you best...it's a 'come as you are' party...it's not about being something you aren't. In my opinion, those who genuinely seek truth often find it. However, the cost is losing this "self" in order to find a much better self (but still imperfect in most every possible way)....connected to God, without that empty place inside that haunts those without. A paradox for sure, but there it is.

 

[realibrad]

I don't know the answer for you specifically...but in my case it took me to the brink of death where I had nothing left to lose...hopefully it will go easier for you. Surrender is not a choice arrived at by rational, considered evaluation of risk, it's about the very essence of your being not caring about the "risk" anymore, it's about coming to a point in one's life where there is nowhere else to turn except towards this inexplicable God who reaches out towards you every day of your life...the risk no longer matters...the cost no longer matters. Surrender is probably the hardest thing a human being can do. All I can advise is to seek truth at all costs and pick the paradigm that suits you best...it's a 'come as you are' party...it's not about being something you aren't. In my opinion, those who genuinely seek truth often find it. However, the cost is losing this "self" in order to find a much better self (but still imperfect in most every possible way)....connected to God, without that empty place inside that haunts those without. A paradox for sure, but there it is.

Do you think you could have personally gotten go to through anything other than your experience of brink of death?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Do you think you could have personally gotten go to through anything other than your experience of brink of death?

There are many ways to reach the end of one's self...but the brink of death is what it took for me. I know that Moonie had a traumatic experience as well although I don't know details. I think it goes easier on some than others...but really, damned if I know.

 

[realibrad]

There are many ways to reach the end of one's self...but the brink of death is what it took for me. I know that Moonie had a traumatic experience as well although I don't know details. I think it goes easier on some than others...but really, damned if I know.

I don't consider myself avoiding god(s), but if its feelings that are required then I seem to lack them. There is not really a logical argument and I don't have the feelings so I seem to be left out. I really hope that it does not require a life/death thing for god(s) to be revealed.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I don't consider myself avoiding god(s), but if its feelings that are required then I seem to lack them. There is not really a logical argument and I don't have the feelings so I seem to be left out. I really hope that it does not require a life/death thing for god(s) to be revealed.

For what it's worth, I think you'll do OK.

 

[realibrad]

For what it's worth, I think you'll do OK.

I'm 29 now and feel no closer to believing in god. I just hope that if there is a rule that I must believe that I dont die and have to spend forever in hell because I did not find it soon enough. Like I said before, it seems like a horrible game of hide and seek if that is truly the way it is.

 

[Moonbeam]

Because I know the story of the Christian god. The story itself is not evidence but it is a story I can respond to. You also don't believe in the Christian story 100% from what I remember.

You know your story of the Christian god and you hate the god in that story. Are you afraid to admit to feeling? Why do you hate that God? I don't want to go off on some trip about how you don't hate that god or any other issue. You hat that god, Why?

I dont know that hate would be the right word here. I dont feel that I have hate and I think that is because I dont believe in the Christian god. I dont have an emotional response to the Christian god so far as I can tell. I still have an emotional feeling to things that happened to me, so I know feelings of dislike, but I dont have one for the Christian god.

If that god were to exist, then I would not be "good" god.

You claim to be open but when I told you not to run away from the fact that you hate the God you don't believe in, you told me that hate would not be the right word. Do not ask people to explain things you say you want explained on the premise they may know something you don't and then tell them that they are maybe using the wrong words and in particular when you were warned not to because I knew it was the first thing you would try to do.

For you the important thing is to tell me your honest opinion. For me the important thing is to show you that your honest opinion is why you can't see anything. You go from one association to the next while insight is a jumping of the tracks.

Tell me why such a god would be bad, this god you don't believe in?

 

[realibrad]

You claim to be open but when I told you not to run away from the fact that you hate the God you don't believe in, you told me that hate would not be the right word. Do not ask people to explain things you say you want explained on the premise they may know something you don't and then tell them that they are maybe using the wrong words and in particular when you were warned not to because I knew it was the first thing you would try to do.

For you the important thing is to tell me your honest opinion. For me the important thing is to show you that your honest opinion is why you can't see anything. You go from one association to the next while insight is a jumping of the tracks.

Tell me why such a god would be bad, this god you don't believe in?

I say hate is not the right word because of how I understand the meaning of the word. Hate is a very strong feeling of dislike, and my feelings toward something I don't have a belief in would seem weird to me. I'm not saying I choose not to hate, I just don't hate toward a god I lack believe in. I can dislike the story of the Christian god, because the Christian god supposedly created all things, good and bad and then made us horribly flawed. Then, if we fail the test of life, we go to hell forever because we failed while given our weak tools of human perception.

If the Christian god were real, then I feel that god would be a bad god. The amount of suffering in this world is far to great for something that has the power to stop it. A child in Africa who is raped because people dont want to get aids is sick any god that has the power to stop that and does not would not be worthy of any positive feelings from me.

The Christian Bible was written by man as inspired by god supposedly. That means it could be flawed. The question would then be what part is right, and what part is wrong. Logically I can't say, so it would have to be emotional, and I seem to lack the feelings to point to what is right or wrong.

So here I am. A person who has no feelings about what god is in a world where evidence is nowhere to be found.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'm 29 now and feel no closer to believing in god. I just hope that if there is a rule that I must believe that I dont die and have to spend forever in hell because I did not find it soon enough. Like I said before, it seems like a horrible game of hide and seek if that is truly the way it is.

Not trying to be cryptic here but perhaps the god you don't believe in doesn't exist in the way you imagine it to be.

Agree, it is a horrible game of hide and seek, at least it was for me anyway, with me being my own worst enemy. A deeply personal battle within yourself is not fun.

I personally don't believe in the construct of hell (eternal damnation) and don't believe it's congruent with what little I know about God. But some chose to believe that paradigm and I'm OK with that. Anyway, I think you're too caught up in the trappings of the Christian paradigm although it can be a very effective path. Like I said, it's a 'come as you are party'...fight the battle and don't sweat the details.

 

[OverVolt]

And this is why you're supposed to be part of a church or spiritual group of some type to sort this shit out so you aren't 30 and having an existential crisis about your belief in god. Forums and the internet in general are a terrible medium for this sort of thing.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

And this is why you're supposed to be part of a church or spiritual group of some type to sort this shit out so you aren't 30 and having an existential crisis about your belief in god. Forums and the internet in general are a terrible medium for this sort of thing.

I was 36 years old when I learned the hard way. Everybody is different.