The Jussie Smollett Affair

[s0me0nesmind1]

What I've recently seen is a series of articles, today, about how the cops rejected his redacted phone records. AFAIK they are still investigating his allegations.

If Smollett turns out to be lying, it's a very bad thing. He will have done as much to set back the cause against racism and homophobia as the bigots themselves. And in that case, he should burn in [metaphorical] hell. However, I'm still at the wait and see stage here.

Sure - but see the last 2 pages of this thread. He also refused to provide his phone. I mean, if he was indeed on the phone with his friend WHILE the attack was occurring (like he claims) then it should be very useful as far as evidence, no?

He also is claiming a timeline of events - where a phone can be very useful for lining those timelines up.... Again, he refuses to hand over his phone or show supporting detail from it. I mean... thats only incredibly relevant and useful information - nothing important.

At the end of the day - this is Victim culture mentality 101. When you're told that you need to be a victim, you will proclaim to be a victim even when you're not.

The concept of being a gay victim in Chicago in of itself is fucking hilarious. I've traveled there shit tons of times, it's the last place something like this would ever happen - and it's definitely the last place where there wouldn't be eye witnesses. Hell @zinfamous keeps trying trick me to get me to go to gay brothels there damnit

 

[Victorian Gray]

I agree. It happens more often than you think though.

Prove it.

 

[UglyCasanova]

At the end of the day - this is Victim culture mentality 101. When you're told that you need to be a victim, you will proclaim to be a victim even when you're not.

I think that drives a lot of it. Wanting to be part of a movement.

 

[woolfe9998]

Sure - but see the last 2 pages of this thread. He also refused to provide his phone. I mean, if he was indeed on the phone with his friend WHILE the attack was occurring (like he claims) then it should be very useful as far as evidence, no?

He also is claiming a timeline of events - where a phone can be very useful for lining those timelines up.... Again, he refuses to hand over his phone or show supporting detail from it. I mean... thats only incredibly relevant and useful information - nothing important.

I agree with this. Which is why I'm not ready to credit Smollett's accusations unless or until the police say otherwise.

At the end of the day - this is Victim culture mentality 101. When you're told that you need to be a victim, you will proclaim to be a victim even when you're not.

Nah, the typical victim culture mentality doesn't involve fabricating serious crimes against yourself personally. If Smollett made this up, it's more of an edge case. I'll be convinced otherwise when UC provides us with his arm's length list of other such incidents.

The concept of being a gay victim in Chicago in of itself is fucking hilarious. I've traveled there shit tons of times, it's the last place something like this would ever happen - and it's definitely the last place where there wouldn't be eye witnesses. Hell @zinfamous keeps trying trick me to get me to go to gay brothels there damnit

No, this is what Smollett's neighbors were quoted saying in that article. There's too many blacks and gays here for such an attack to occur. Sorry, but there are bigots everywhere in this country.

http://www.sfcenter.org/programs/violence-against-lgbt-people-unabating-even-san-francisco

Gay bashing incidents happen in San Francisco. Can you think of a city more generally accepting of LGBT than SF?

Likely there are far more gay bashing incidents in major cities with high gay populations simply because there are more gays there and their culture is far more visible.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I'll be convinced otherwise when UC provides us with his arm's length list of other such incidents.

Ahem


https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...ist-note-racism-campus-des-moines/2162705002/

https://www.kansas.com/news/local/education/article221373355.html

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/4/fynn-arthur-goucher-college-student-arrested-race-/

https://nypost.com/2018/07/23/waiter-made-up-story-about-racist-tipper-restaurant/

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/04/ann_arbor_woman_to_serve_1_yea.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/us/air-force-academy-racist.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/shoelace...es-racial-uproar-at-michigan-state-university

http://www.startribune.com/st-olaf-...tudent-s-windshield-was-fabricated/421912763/

https://fox59.com/2017/04/23/indian...accused-of-creating-fake-anti-muslim-threats/

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/SDSU-Police-Attack-on-Muslim-Student-Unfounded-410296485.html

http://cuchimes.com/02/2017/campus-police-determine-reported-hate-crimes-fabricated/

 

[woolfe9998]

Ahem


https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...ist-note-racism-campus-des-moines/2162705002/

https://www.kansas.com/news/local/education/article221373355.html

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/4/fynn-arthur-goucher-college-student-arrested-race-/

https://nypost.com/2018/07/23/waiter-made-up-story-about-racist-tipper-restaurant/

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/04/ann_arbor_woman_to_serve_1_yea.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/us/air-force-academy-racist.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/shoelace...es-racial-uproar-at-michigan-state-university

http://www.startribune.com/st-olaf-...tudent-s-windshield-was-fabricated/421912763/

https://fox59.com/2017/04/23/indian...accused-of-creating-fake-anti-muslim-threats/

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/SDSU-Police-Attack-on-Muslim-Student-Unfounded-410296485.html

http://cuchimes.com/02/2017/campus-police-determine-reported-hate-crimes-fabricated/

If you could come up with double that number, how many is that compared to the total number of allegations of racist behavior which are made? There are hate crimes reported daily in the US.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Ooh found another

https://atlantablackstar.com/2018/1...-on-campus-blames-built-up-anger-for-actions/

 

[Victorian Gray]

Ooh found another

https://atlantablackstar.com/2018/1...-on-campus-blames-built-up-anger-for-actions/

And apparently it makes you feel all warm and tingly.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I like how Ugly's been tingling in his nether regions so hard int this thread, and then wonders why he perpetually gets called out for his fucked up views on bigotry. He's gloating about finally having one that he's already claimed wholeheartedly is false (even though the police are still investigating it and there's nothing concrete to claim its false yet). You can literally tell how excited he is about it, that if that alone doesn't show how full of shit he is when he tries to trot out how almost all the claims of racism are false/fake/lies, then I don't know what could.

 

[shortylickens]

If you could come up with double that number, how many is that compared to the total number of allegations of racist behavior which are made? There are hate crimes reported daily in the US.

You asked for a big list of incidents.
he gave you a big list of incidents.

dont be a fuckin prick.

 

[interchange]

I'm wondering what this whole saga says about us as people. Interestingly in several of @UglyCasanova 's reports are references to mental health.

 

[K1052]

The concept of being a gay victim in Chicago in of itself is fucking hilarious.

Having known people who were assaulted here I can definitively say that it is indeed not "hilarious".

Obviously it's not like decades past but the idea that it can't/won't happen is simply wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

Congrats. You have half a brain. It's sad that so many here don't and that I had to be the first in this thread to make a call-out that the bullshit-o-meter was going off the charts.

The guy that claims someone can't be jewish simply because they are black is somehow slightly smarter than the rest of the people that you hilariously disparage for actually being vastly smarter than you?

You are funny. Not sure if you actually read his comment, though.

 

[zinfamous]

I agree. It happens more often than you think though.

How often does it happen though, according to your feels? Can we get any kind of serviceable number, or is it just more "listen to me, because I know stuff?"

But we all get it: all you care about is a widely publicized incident like this where you can justify bigotry and violence against minorities simply because in that one famous incident, a dude was lying, therefore all other claims of bigotry and violence are false. ....this is because you are an ignorant asshole.

 

[zinfamous]

Sure - but see the last 2 pages of this thread. He also refused to provide his phone. I mean, if he was indeed on the phone with his friend WHILE the attack was occurring (like he claims) then it should be very useful as far as evidence, no?

He also is claiming a timeline of events - where a phone can be very useful for lining those timelines up.... Again, he refuses to hand over his phone or show supporting detail from it. I mean... thats only incredibly relevant and useful information - nothing important.

At the end of the day - this is Victim culture mentality 101. When you're told that you need to be a victim, you will proclaim to be a victim even when you're not.

The concept of being a gay victim in Chicago in of itself is fucking hilarious. I've traveled there shit tons of times, it's the last place something like this would ever happen - and it's definitely the last place where there wouldn't be eye witnesses. Hell @zinfamous keeps trying trick me to get me to go to gay brothels there damnit

First thing that comes to mind was when Kevin Clewer was murdered in Boystown back in 2003.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/03/30/murders-that-rocked-gay-community-unsolved-after-7-years/

so yeah, definitely no history of persecution.

But I like how you make up bullshit WS terms and other nonsense to justify your complete lack of curiosity in spending the minimum amount of time to simply investigate your constantly stupid claims about the myriad things that you clearly don't know.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I'm wondering what this whole saga says about us as people. Interestingly in several of @UglyCasanova 's reports are references to mental health.

And that's exactly why Ugly is gloating because that's what he wants. He actually wants groups that are discriminated against to have to deal with it so much that it legit gives them mental illnesses so that he can then say that it was just people being crazy and wasn't actual bigotry.

 

[UNCjigga]

Not defending UC here, but I think it’s pretty obvious that something about this whole story just don’t pass the smell test.

I will defend Smollett not wanting to turn his phone over to police...that’s just common sense.

But if he fabricated any part of this story for whatever reason, I hope he gets caught, charged, and made an example of. There are real people dealing with this kind of shit every day and some celeb faking an attack would undermine real victims.

 

[interchange]

And that's exactly why Ugly is gloating because that's what he wants. He actually wants groups that are discriminated against to have to deal with it so much that it legit gives them mental illnesses so that he can then say that it was just people being crazy and wasn't actual bigotry.

What is it that you want? I'd hope you can speak to that more than you can to @UglyCasanova 's desires.

Personally I think that the division between those of us who are voyeurs to Smollet's saga and people who might be labeled as racists, bigots, mentally ill, criminals, etc. is much more narrow than most of us are comfortable believing. Those of us voyeurs here, put a feather in your cap because you are capable of navigating these conflicts without engaging in behavior destructive enough for society to prohibit. I think the purpose of these pejorative labels is to make that division seem larger than it really is. Perhaps that protects some of us with less behavioral control from acting. Perhaps that merely bolsters our self-esteem.

But I'm sick of it. The victim and perpetrator roles are in all of us. What I want is for us to accept that so we can unify instead of divide. Well, that's part of what I want.

 

[darkswordsman17]

What is it that you want? I'd hope you can speak to that more than you can to @UglyCasanova 's desires.

Personally I think that the division between those of us who are voyeurs to Smollet's saga and people who might be labeled as racists, bigots, mentally ill, criminals, etc. is much more narrow than most of us are comfortable believing. Those of us voyeurs here, put a feather in your cap because you are capable of navigating these conflicts without engaging in behavior destructive enough for society to prohibit. I think the purpose of these pejorative labels is to make that division seem larger than it really is. Perhaps that protects some of us with less behavioral control from acting. Perhaps that merely bolsters our self-esteem.

But I'm sick of it. The victim and perpetrator roles are in all of us. What I want is for us to accept that so we can unify instead of divide. Well, that's part of what I want.

World peace. And publicly funded health care that would help ease the burden of a lot of families that have been suffering to try and take care of sick family members, especially elderly ones. Some tacos would be good, and I like a good burger. Do I need to continue or have I satiated your little lesson enough?

No idea what you're babbling about. I have nothing to gain regardless of the outcome of this so I don't really care much either way. If the guy is faking it, he's an asshole. If he wasn't, then that sucks and the people that did it to him are assholes.

I'm merely pointing out how Ugly has been full on gloating about this because he's been called out for literally saying that 90-95% of racism claims are false/fake/lies, and even after admitting he full on pulled that out of his ass, then still claiming that he doesn't believe that the vast majority of claims of racism are real. And he's consistently denied that it was such a thing when provided evidence (there was one where he claimed that some people made up a claim about the KKK handing out candy in a neighborhood with some flyers about white supremacy stuff, and someone provide a link of someone from the KKK straight up saying they do stuff like that, and he still refused to believe that it happened).

Well be sick of it, but why don't you focus your sickness on the ones that actually get perverse pleasure out of this and not the people calling them out for being fucked in the head.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I'm merely pointing out how Ugly has been full on gloating about this because he's been called out for literally saying that 90-95% of racism claims are false/fake/lies, and even after admitting he full on pulled that out of his ass

Oh we’re back on this are we....

I said a lot are hoaxes. And a lot are, I’ve backed up my statement. Trying to get a gotcha on “he said a certain percent” is lame. You haven’t got me. Yes a frickin lot are hoaxes. When it seems over the top there’s generally a reason. Argue that

 

[Vic]

The guy that claims someone can't be jewish simply because they are black is somehow slightly smarter than the rest of the people that you hilariously disparage for actually being vastly smarter than you?

You are funny. Not sure if you actually read his comment, though.

In fairness, it make sense that someone would only need a half a brain to hold a belief without any evidence about an event that has no actual meaning or relevance in their lives.

 

[woolfe9998]

You asked for a big list of incidents.
he gave you a big list of incidents.

dont be a fuckin prick.

You're actually correct here. He did give me what I asked for. So kudos to him for that. But I shouldn't have framed my request as I did. Because a "large" number of incidents, in this case all of what, 10, doesn't prove much of anything when we have 10's of thousands of hate crime prosecutions every year and who knows how many allegations of racist behavior which do not amount to hate crimes or aren't prosecuted. Even a list 10 times that long wouldn't prove much. If only 1% of all such allegations were false, you could still come up with 10, probably a lot more than 10.

What we need is a study which analyzes a fair and random sampling of such allegations to determine the percentage which are false or likely false. This kind of study has been done for rape and sexual assault allegations which are also politically quite controversial. Don't know if anything like that has been done for hate crimes.

 

[realibrad]

You're actually correct here. He did give me what I asked for. So kudos to him for that. But I shouldn't have framed my request as I did. Because a "large" number of incidents, in this case all of what, 10, doesn't prove much of anything when we have 10's of thousands of hate crime prosecutions every year and who knows how many allegations of racist behavior which do not amount to hate crimes or aren't prosecuted. Even a list 10 times that long wouldn't prove much. If only 1% of all such allegations were false, you could still come up with 10, probably a lot more than 10.

What we need is a study which analyzes a fair and random sampling of such allegations to determine the percentage which are false or likely false. This kind of study has been done for rape and sexual assault allegations which are also politically quite controversial. Don't know if anything like that has been done for hate crimes.

Would that do anything to his claim though? He said that there were a lot of these incidents, and, well there are. Now, in relation to valid claims its very small. The issue though, is that just accepting all claims as valid seems silly when we know that, while small as a ratio, it happens a lot in raw number.

 

[woolfe9998]

Would that do anything to his claim though? He said that there were a lot of these incidents, and, well there are. Now, in relation to valid claims its very small. The issue though, is that just accepting all claims as valid seems silly when we know that, while small as a ratio, it happens a lot in raw number.

You seem like a smart enough guy to understand basic statistics. So tell me, what does a raw number actually prove to you? All you have to do is come up with one incident to prove that it has happened at least once in the past, meaning it could theoretically happen any time in the future. After that, the raw numbers tell you nothing because they don't tell you the actual probability of it.

There's always at least a few people who will do anything. There are people who have sex with animals. But not really very many, so no one is going to say it's a big national problem. Yet if we had access to database of all such people, I bet the list would be many fold longer than UC's list of false hate crime accusations. Similarly, I bet a list of people who believe the earth is flat would be orders of magnitude longer, but that is considered a very rare belief.

A percentage of all criminal allegations, not just hate crimes but every category of crime - are false. There are some false accusations of rape, murder, theft, fraud, you name it. The question is, what percentage of the whole.

Percentages and ratios matter. Raw numbers, not so much. Not in such a vast domain as the entire population of the United States.

 

[realibrad]

You seem like a smart enough guy to understand basic statistics. So tell me, what does a raw number actually prove to you? All you have to do is come up with one incident to prove that it has happened at least once in the past, meaning it could theoretically happen any time in the future. After that, the raw numbers tell you nothing because they don't tell you the actual probability of it. There's always at least a few people who will do anything. There are people who have sex with animals. But not really very many, so no one is going to say it's a big national problem.

Percentages and ratios matter. Raw numbers, not so much. Not in such a vast domain as the entire population of the United States.

What the raw number tells me is different than the relationship to the total.

For example, lets look at marketing. Lets say you have a market segmentation of 90% that like feature A, and 10% that like feature B. Most people would stop there and think you should go after the feature A set people.

In reality, what you would need to do is look at your expected penetration rate, cost of features A vs B, total revenue, ect. So, it may run out that the lower number is more meaningful depending on a set of factors.

Now, in relation to this topic. Because it does happen a lot, even if its still small in relation, means it should not be ignored as so unlikely to not worry. All he said is that it happens more than many realize. I would be the reason for saying that is he thinks people are too quick to dismiss the possibility that it could be false.